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Hop Back Mild (Graham Wheeler clone) - BIABacus hopping

Post #1 made 11 years ago
by colinb4987
Hi all,

I'm in the process of lining up recipes to try (brew kit finally arriving this week), and as such familiarising myself both with GW's book, and with BIABacus. It all makes perfect sense to me, with one exception. When I convert a recipe from GW to BIABacus, the scaling of hop quantities makes no sense at all! As I understand it, GW's 25l recipe is actually 24.04l VAW (entered into recipe in cell BG86 in BIABacus). If I have Desired Volume into Fermenter set to 23l, my grain bill must be smaller - and it is. Surely by the same logic my hop bill must also be smaller? I'm obviously missing something, so would appreciate any guidance on offer as to what that is! Attached is the file I'm playing with...
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Post #2 made 11 years ago
by PistolPatch
One quick thing Col is that your file is opening up very strangely in the way it displays. So, there is a chance it has been unprotected (oh hold on, I see now, it has been saved as an .xlsx file. You think Microsoft would make their own lte versions compatible with older versions but they don't. I actually have the newest Excel and your file is displaying atrociously. Bring back Bill Gates!

Anyway, first message is always save BIABacus files as .xls. Here is how yours looks to me...
Colin GW Clone.jpg
Now as for answering your question re grain and hop bill both becoming smaller, the answer is, "No, not necessarily." Grain bill and hop bill are quite different animals.

But before we even go there, the first thing you need to see is that VIF and VAW are not the same thing. [I hope no one else is reading this because the PR1.3 file you posted and I copied is not using the same terminology as both you and I are using. Oh no!!!!]

Anyway, let's forget that for the moment, and let's just deal with the grain side. Your post above implies that VIF and VAW re the same thing whereas they are not. The difference is 'Kettle to Fermentor Loss (KFL)'.

In the file you posted, your VAW is 25.53 whilst Graeme's is 24.04. So your first question actually needs to be, "Why is the grain bill I need less than Graeme's when I am actually making more VAW?"

Until you get that question clear in your mind and answered, the hops question is actually irrelevant.

It's not easy stuff to get your head around and there is no need for you to get your head around it now. For now, the main thing you need to know is that your BIABacus file (apart from being an .xlsx) is looking fine and correct.

Also make sure you change your profile so it reflects your region.

:peace:
PP

[TS35]
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Last edited by PistolPatch on 30 Jul 2014, 19:31, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #3 made 11 years ago
by colinb4987
PP,

Thanks for the reply. The file had been opened in Google Spreadsheets, and then later saved again as an xls - presumably that's mangled a bunch of the formatting. Updated version attached, imported into v1.3T

As for the VIF/VAW confusion, thanks for pointing them out - I had them clear in my head, but not in where each appeared in the spreadsheet. Cracked it now. Setting my VIF to 21.66l gives a VAW of 24.04l, and appropriately doesn't scale the hops. It does, however, scale the grain bill

Looking into the formulae, I suspect that the assumptions around efficiency are playing a role here - specifically, Efficiency into Boil. Correct? If so, I can stop getting hung up onto this.

If this is the case, it also makes sense then why the grain bill scales at these volumes and the hop bill doesn't - the ingredients contribute at different stages of the brewing process, and thus the grain bill is affected by additional assumptions upstream of those affecting the hop bill.

Hopefully I'm getting somewhere on this! Still, this then raises a further question around EBCs and FG. The recipe in the book gives a colour of 92EBC, and FG of 1.009, while BIABacus gives EBC of 38.8 and FG of 1.006. Obviously they may well be different when it comes to brewday, but I'm struggling to understand why I'm not managing to replicate the recipe's outcomes even on a dry level.

Thanks for your patience with this newbie...!
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Post #4 made 11 years ago
by mally
I have had a quick look at your BIABacus, and didnt notice anything untoward when I compared it to my GW book.
Well I did notice you had golding hops at 5.5% and GW's are 5.7% but that is splitting hairs.

As for the colour differences I would guess this could be due to the way the calculations are done (being different), but what I would say is it will not matter, I have brewed from this book using the BIABacus, and it is very good. BTW have you seen the sticky for GW recips that Yeasty has posted?

As for the gravity, again these are different. However, GW states 1.034 - 1.009 @3.1% ABV. You have 1.034 - 1.006 @ 3.3% ABV (both at 80% attenuation).
If you change your BIABacus to 75% attenuation you will get 1.034 - 1.008 @3.1% ABV which is almost identical.

These are only calculations (though are often reliable & accurate), but it is up to your yeast to decide when it is done!
I would say just go for it and see for yourself. :luck:
G B
I spent lots of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I squandered
I've stopped drinking, but only when I'm asleep
I ONCE gave up women and alcohol - it was the worst 20 minutes of my life
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Post #5 made 11 years ago
by colinb4987
Thanks mally. As for splitting hairs - you're correct of course. Although if we're going down that route, GW doesn't actually list EKG, just Golding. I looked EKG up on hopslist, which gives 5-6%, and took the midpoint.

Didn't know the colour calculations were different, will have to get my head around that at some point (intellectual curiosity).

Have indeed seen the GW sticky from Yeasty - very helpful indeed!

As you say, they're just calculations, and the brewing is what matters. First up is the Amarillo APA, thereafter either a mild or, more likely, a summery golden ale... Should just point out, this is my first time brewing anything at all, hence the myriad of questions!

Post #6 made 11 years ago
by mally
colinb4987 wrote:Should just point out, this is my first time brewing anything at all, hence the myriad of questions!
No problem - We have all been there, and want to know everything before we start. However, with most things, theory will take you so far, but not as much as experiencing first hand. Once you get going you will wonder what all the fuss was about, it can be that easy (like riding a bike)!

If you are interested in Golding hops by the way, the term Golding is a generic/group name for a variety of Golding cultivars. EKG (East Kent Golding) are just Golding hops that have been grown in east Kent. Kent goldings are grown in Kent (but not east), anywhere else in the UK are just called Golding.
There's a Whitbread strain, Bramling etc. etc.

Bl###y hell, who would have thought a single hop would be so complicated!
Last edited by mally on 31 Jul 2014, 16:54, edited 1 time in total.
G B
I spent lots of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I squandered
I've stopped drinking, but only when I'm asleep
I ONCE gave up women and alcohol - it was the worst 20 minutes of my life
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From Great Britain

Post #8 made 11 years ago
by nosco
When I order ingredients I look on my LHBS web site for the AA's of the hops and then enter them into the biabicus so i know how much to get. I got caught out on my first 2 brews with not enough hops to match the IBU's. It took me that long to realise they showed the AA's on the website :lol:
"Gentleman, when I first started Reynholm Industries, I had just two things in my possession: a simple dream, and six million pounds.
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