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Post #126 made 15 years ago
by PistolPatch
Hi there Yeasty,

Regarding your IBU question, I think you are on the right track. I'll have a proper look tomorrow though at your whole spreadsheet and give you a better answer then unless BrickBrewHaus beats me to it ;). (Read from here on and you'll get the joke :lol:.

But, I do expect him and you, once you have mastered The Calculator, to buy a second monitor for your computer so you too can answer the questions in this thread.

LOL,
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 11 Jan 2011, 20:34, edited 9 times in total.
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Post #127 made 15 years ago
by Yeasty
But, I do expect him and you, once you have mastered The Calculator, to buy a second monitor for your computer so you too can answer the questions in this thread.
No problem with that PP, I love sweating over spread sheets its all part of the fun :lol: :cry:
Last edited by Yeasty on 12 Jan 2011, 04:32, edited 9 times in total.
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Post #128 made 15 years ago
by PistolPatch
LOL :). Sorry about the delay but that all looks fine Yeasty ;).

I'm assuming that you want to brew the same brew length as the original recipe so the only thing that is really changing here is the efficiency percentage - from 75 to 79%. This will not affect the hop bill as the end of boil volume, assuming the original brewer gets about the same losses to kettle and fermenter, will remain the same.

I have attached a new spreadsheet that is ready to go for any situation including if you want to change the brew length. In reality though, all I did was, on the hop bill sheet, change cell C5 to 23.81 L, which is the end of boil volume of the original recipe as far as we can tell.

Good on ya, Yeasty!
The Calculator - Yeasty's Choclate Coffee Stout.xls
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Last edited by PistolPatch on 13 Jan 2011, 06:22, edited 9 times in total.
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Post #129 made 15 years ago
by Yeasty
Nice one PP thanks again for your time :salute:
Getting the hang of it now, good to have a second opinion before commiting the prescious malt to the pot :pray:

Got to wait until the end of the month before brewing though. Got 240 pints in FV, barrels or bottles around the house and the wife's starting to twig I'm up to something :argh:

Y
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Post #130 made 14 years ago
by pkearney
If a recipe has Cane sugar do you enter it in the spread sheet as a grain ?
The last BIAB I had a few Ltrs too much at the end of the boil (had the lid on ) ,with the next one should I put less water in or more grain ?
Does this change the calculations at all Cheers Phill

Post #131 made 14 years ago
by PistolPatch
Yeasty wrote:Got 240 pints in FV, barrels or bottles around the house and the wife's starting to twig I'm up to something :argh:
:lol:. Good on ya Yeasty :thumbs:
pkearney wrote:If a recipe has Cane sugar do you enter it in the spread sheet as a grain ?
How you doing Phil :peace:

Cane sugar should be entered in the spreadhseet as it will affect your gravity. Cane sugar has a higher extract potential than grain and this extra potential is something The Calculator won't adjust for as it simply uses an "average" extract potential. The effect a bit more or less cane sugar will have is not worth worrying about though especially when starting out.
pkearney wrote:The last BIAB I had a few Ltrs too much at the end of the boil (had the lid on) ,with the next one should I put less water in or more grain ?
Does this change the calculations at all Cheers Phill
Okay, make sure you always boil with the lid off. One of the most important functions of the boil is to get rid of some "nasties." If you are worried about excessive evaporation, float a food-grade bowl on the wort surface to reduce the surface area but maintain boil vigour.

So, on the next brew, use the same calculations, leave the lid off and see how things end up. Do this a few times before you start changing the calculations.

Hope everything else went smoothly for you :),
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 23 Jan 2011, 18:22, edited 9 times in total.
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Post #132 made 14 years ago
by Yeasty
Hi PK
If a recipe has Cane sugar do you enter it in the spread sheet as a grain ?
I'm new to this so this may need checking but here's my thinking on the subject.. :think:

The way I would do it is calculate the gravity points the sugar addition is contributing to the recipe and subtract this off your end of boil gravity figure in B10. Then work out your grain bill using the calculator as normal. Brew in the normal way which will produce a weaker wort than required, then by adding your cane sugar the OG should hit your target.

So if your recipe calls for 1.5Kg sugar

1.5 x 370/23 = 24 degrees of gravity (rounded down)

Where
370 = Degree of gravity if 1kg sugar were dissolved in 1 litre of water
23 = assumed brew length

If the recipe has a OG of 1.048 subtract 24 which gives you 1.024.
The last BIAB I had a few Ltrs too much at the end of the boil (had the lid on ) ,with the next one should I put less water in or more grain ?
You really need the lid off when boiling to get rid of the certain unwanted nasties that can effect the taste of ya brew.

Y

Edit..beaten by PP again !! What do you think PP would this work ok?
Last edited by Yeasty on 23 Jan 2011, 18:44, edited 11 times in total.
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Post #134 made 14 years ago
by PistolPatch
Yeasty wrote:What do you think PP would this work ok?
:thumbs: Yeasty. Great to see another brewer jumping in here. I actually would have never have thought of that!

If PK is up to doing it your way, this will be more accurate. If he needs help with the maths, you'll have to be the man though! I hope Phill does need help as I have never really spent any time on really thinking on or knowing gravity calcs.

The student (me) is ready though I might only be able to understand long posts :)
Last edited by PistolPatch on 23 Jan 2011, 22:15, edited 9 times in total.
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Post #136 made 14 years ago
by Yeasty
Hi PK

Can you post your recipe please. Are you talking about cane sugar (sucrose) or candi sugar (inverted sugar) as I can't see the point of adding just 10% of cane sugar to an AG brew. I have seen some recipe's that use dark candi sugar and i'm wondering if thats what you mean.

As PP said the extract potential is different between grain and sugar, expressed as 1 Kg in 1 litre of water, grain is 300 degrees gravity and sugar is 370 degrees gravity, A difference of about 23%.

10% of a grain bill is not going to be a big deal, probably about 500-600g in a 23L brew so doing the math...

Pale malt at say 550g would give 7.17 degrees

Sugar at say 550g would give 8.85 degrees

so by using sugar you will increase the gravity by 1.7 degrees, not a massive increase so I'd suggest just adding the sugar as grain in the calculator.

Y
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Post #137 made 14 years ago
by Two If By Sea
Adding cane sugar to a tripel is completely sensible...or a Belgian Golden Strong. When I do sugar additions, I usually make a duplicate of the recipe...or take notes. I put the sugar in to know the total picture of the beer. Then I duplicate the recipe and remove the sugar so I know what to look for post mash (or just delete the sugar and take notes on gravity).
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Post #138 made 14 years ago
by Yeasty
2xc. PK

What do you guys mean by Cane sugar? I'm assuming its just normal household sugar,
Adding cane sugar to a tripel is completely sensible...
Your right X2C, but I didn't think it would have been worth it for just 10% and 1-2 points of gravity, I'm not a brewer of "strong" beers so I haven't thought about it much....yet! :scratch:

Y
Last edited by Yeasty on 24 Jan 2011, 16:19, edited 9 times in total.
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Post #139 made 14 years ago
by pkearney
The Beer in Question is a Belgian Specialty Ale looked interesting has two stage fermentation PP 214 0f brewing the classic styles
Plisener Malt 74.7% Cane sugar 10.1% +CaraMunich 15.2 % Styrain Goldings Hops

Post #140 made 14 years ago
by Two If By Sea
Yes household sugar which, here in the States, would be Cane sugar only if it says so on the package, otherwise it is beet sugar, chemically both the same: sucrose. The Belgians use sugars to drive up ABV and dry/thin out their beers since table sugar is almost 100% fermentable. Invert/candi/candy sugars would normally be used in darker beers needing some caramelish flavors (although there is a clear candi sugar and rock sugar) while beers like Tripels and Golden Strongs benefit from the flavorless additions of plain sucrose. I like to add my sugar just as high krausen starts to fall, and I do it in small increments. I feel that I'd rather the yeasties concentrate on the more difficult sugars in a wort before they get to the easy peasy sugars. I usually use 46 ppg for calculations, so in a normal 5 gallon batch you would get more than 1-2 points of gravity, remember these are usually big beers so 10% can easily be a few pounds of sugar.
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Post #141 made 14 years ago
by Yeasty
Thanks for the little lesson 2XC I learnt some thing new there. :thumbs:

PK
So Yeasty if the sugar is 10 % of the total do I put it in as a grain in the calculation
Its not so straight forward when using percentages, I've given this some thought and looked at your recipe, the main problem is (as PP said)the calculator applies a standard extract potential figure which is less than sugar, and it applies the efficiency figure as well. Including the sugar will introduce an error in the OG which will be higher. However with the knowledge gained off 2XC :salute: and your recipe being a 2 stage fermentation I'm assuming the sugar will be added in stages. This will give you scope to adjust your sugar addition, ie brew with the grains as per the calculator,take a gravity reading and subtract this from the recipe OG, use this figure to calculate the sugar needed to bring the gravity to your target.

Hope this helps

Y
Last edited by Yeasty on 26 Jan 2011, 07:51, edited 9 times in total.
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Post #142 made 14 years ago
by 2trout
Here Goes...

This will be my first BIAB from the ground up. I have BIABed two all grain kits and stumbled through it. Found this recipe at Home Brew Talk...http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f66/nierra- ... one-27673/
This is a scaled down ABV version (My First 10-gallon batch) and will yield a nice session APA that is between 4.0-4.5%. I'll post results and pics when we have the final product.


********
Batch Size: 10.00 gal
Boil Size: 12.13 gal
Estimated OG: 1.046 SG
Estimated Color: 6.8 SRM
Attachment 1501
Estimated IBU: 37.4 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.0 %
Boil Time: 70 Minutes
Total Grain Weight: 17lbs
********

Ingredients:
------------
Amount
15.00 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM)
1.00 lb Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM)
1.00 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM)
2.00 oz Pearle [6.30%] (70 min)
2.00 oz Cascade [7.00%] (10 min)
1.00 oz Cascade [7.00%] (5 min)
American Yeast (I used Wyeast #1056)
Mash at 154 degrees (F) for 65 minutes. Batch Sparge at 170 degrees for a pre boil volume of 12 gallons.
I first cut volumes and weights in half as this was from a 10 Gal batch, and I will do 5 Gal. I also converted to metric the weights and volumes youll find these like this . I came up with this....


********
Batch (lenght) Size: 5.00 gal 19L
Boil Size: gal
Estimated OG: 1.046 SG
Estimated Color: 6.8 SRM
Attachment 1501
Estimated IBU: 37.4 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: %
Boil Time: 70 Minutes
Total Grain Weight: 8.5lbs 3856g
********

Ingredients:
------------
Amount
7.50 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) 3402g
.50 lb Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) 227g
.50 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) 227g
1.00 oz Pearle [6.30%] (70 min) 28g
1.00 oz Cascade [7.00%] (10 min) 28g
.50 oz Cascade [7.00%] (5 min) 14g
American Yeast (I used Wyeast #1056)
Mash at 154 degrees (F) for 65 minutes. Batch Sparge at 170 degrees.

I plugged the halved and converted figures into the calculator along with my Pot diamater (49cm) and let the calculator do its work...... see attachment?!?!

Ill convert back to gallons etc. when I get this correct. I believe :pray: the only problem is IBUs. The author hit his IBU estimate of 37.4 almost dead on. The Calculator has me at 27.2....Different formulas or should I bump up my hops? Am I on the right track?
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Last edited by 2trout on 05 Feb 2011, 12:00, edited 9 times in total.
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Post #143 made 14 years ago
by Yeasty
Hi 2trout

Please wait for a second opinion as I'm new to this.

I think your problem is with the Batch size figure. Your scaled recipe gives Batch (lenght) Size: 5.00 gal 19L If you enter this into E5 of the Hop Bill it brings your IBU up to 34.3.
I've put the original 10gal recipe into BrewMate and it gives 34.5 IBU's for a 38L batch so its pretty close.

Hope this helps

Yeasty
Last edited by Yeasty on 05 Feb 2011, 20:12, edited 9 times in total.
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Post #144 made 14 years ago
by PistolPatch
[Good to see you jumping in Yeasty :thumbs:]

Hi there Trout. Great to see you taking the plunge.

What I have done here is looked at the original recipe, made some educated guesses where needs be and then put this straight into The Calculator. Here is what the original recipe will look like...
Trout Sierra.xls
You'll see that the OG on The Calculator comes up as 1.049 versus 1.046 in the source recipe. IBUs come out as 35.1 IBUs versus 37.4 in the source recipe. Some of the reasons for this can be read here.

What is important is that you work off the new figures. To arrive at the above spreadsheet I basically followed the principles written in this post under the section, "What You Should Worry About/Do When Converting," which apply to all software.

A lot of these steps are done for you in The Calculator. In fact, all you need to do now is change the brew length figure and the efficiency figure. If we change the brewlength to 19 L and the efficiency figure to 81% our spreadsheet will now look like this...
Trout Sierra Final.xls
You'll notice I changed the cells J8 to J10 on the hop bill sheet. Before you finalise this recipe, you will have to check the AA% of the hops you are buying and change these cells to match.

Assuming the AA% of the hops you buy is the same as the source recipe then you already have your final weights and are good to go for your first brew.

You'll see you got pretty close though on your first try Trout. Well done :salute:.

We'll look forward to hearing how you go and if any of the above isn't clear, grab a beer and see if the links above make some sense. If not, keep asking questions. It takes a while to get your head around conversions.

Take it easy,
PP
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Last edited by PistolPatch on 05 Feb 2011, 20:27, edited 9 times in total.
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Post #145 made 14 years ago
by ElPresidente
So I have my first brew, an extract + specialty grain porter in the fermenter, and I'm starting to put together plans for my next batch. I'm really interested in doing all grain, and so a mini-BIAB sounds perfect. My equipment is pretty basic:

- 19L aluminum pot, 30cm diameter
- 19L glass carboy
- Electric stove

Here's the recipe from Jamil Zainasheff that I'm trying to adapt:
http://beerdujour.com/Recipes/Jamil/Jam" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... tish60.htm

6.5 lb (2.95 kg) English Pale Malt (Golden Promise or Crisp Maris Otter is ideal)
0.5 lb. (0.23 kg) Munich Malt
0.5 lb. (0.23 kg) Honey Malt
1 lb. (0.45 kg) Crystal 40L
0.5 lb (0.23 kg) Crystal 120L
2 oz. (57 g) Pale Chocolate Malt 200L
0.53 oz. (15 g) East Kent Goldings hops,
5% alpha acid (60 min.)

White Labs WLP001 California Ale

Target Original Gravity: 1.038
Approximate Final Gravity: 1.012
Anticipated SRM: 15.4
Anticipated IBU: 13.1
Wort Boil Time: 90 minutes

Single infusion mash at 158F (70C). Ferment at 65F (18C)
(The original recipe called for 1.8 kg of Pale Malt to make a Scottish Light, but Brewing Classic Styles says 3 kg will make a Scottish Heavy.)

I plugged everything in to the Converter, ADMIN NOTE: Unfortunately the edget being referred to here is no longer available. Please read this post for alternatives. and here's the result:

Brew Length 10.00 lts
Fermenter Trub* 0.80 lts
Volume into Fermenter 10.80 lts
Kettle Trub & Buffer* 1.80 lts
End of Boil Efficiency* 79.00 %
End of Boil Gravity (OG) 1.038 Deg.
End of Boil Volume (Batch Size) 12.60 lts
Boil Length 90 min
Diameter of Kettle 30.00 cms
Evaporation Per Hour* 3.03 lts/hr
Evaporation for this Brew 4.54 lts
Expected Start of Boil Gravity 1.028 Deg.
Start of Boil Volume 17.14 lts
Grain Bill Required 1974 grams
Grain Absorption* 1.24 lts
Water Required is... 18.38 lts
Approximate Mash Volume 19.68 lts

% g
71.1 1404 British Pale Ale Malt
10.9 214 Crystal 40L
5.5 110 Munich Malt
5.5 110 Honey Malt
5.5 110 Crystal 120L
1.4 27 Pale Chocolate (200L)

11.1g 5.5% Kent Goldings (60 min)

Questions:
- Does this look like a reasonable first all-grain attempt?
- The Mash Volume is larger than my pot, so I'm assuming I hold some water in reserve. When should I add the water? During the boil? Into the fermenter? If I add it after the boil, should I adjust the recipe to account for lower hop utilization in the boil?
- Jamil says to mash at 70C, but I've read in a couple places that BIABers usually mash at 1C higher than "normal." Should I mash at 71C?

Thanks for your help!
Last edited by ElPresidente on 07 Feb 2011, 05:45, edited 9 times in total.

Post #146 made 14 years ago
by stux
Add the water when you pull the bag as you're heating up to the boil

Or add it during the boil, but it should be boiling water then
Fermenting: -
Cubed: -
Stirplate: -
On Tap: NS Summer Ale III (WY1272), Landlord III (WY1469), Fighter's 70/- II (WY1272), Roast Porter (WY1028), Cider, Soda
Next: Munich Helles III

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Post #147 made 14 years ago
by BrickBrewHaus
stux wrote:Add the water when you pull the bag as you're heating up to the boil
+1

I've been doing mini-BIABs with a 19L stock pot and I formulate my recipes so that the "Approximate Mash Volume" is ~20.5L. I'll keep ~4L out and heat this in a separate pot and add it to the boil kettle after I pull the bag/as I'm bringing it to a boil. (Heating in a separate pot isn't necessary, just helps bring to a boil faster.) By doing it this way you don't have to account for different hop utilization and you know the top up water will be sanitary.

Regarding mash temp...My opinion is to mash at the suggested 70C then you can adjust the mash temp up or down depending on how it turns out. Everyone's system (even 3V systems) and techniques are slightly different and can have some effect on fermentability. So for your first attempt, just keep things simple. It'll turn out great.
Last edited by BrickBrewHaus on 07 Feb 2011, 11:34, edited 9 times in total.

Post #149 made 14 years ago
by 2trout
Yeasty and PistolPatch

Thanks for the help!

Ive been side-tracked for the last several days by the Super Bowl (my boys won :champ: ), and powder days here in Colorado. Ill be following your suggestions and see if I can understand them.
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Post #150 made 14 years ago
by PistolPatch
Trout: No problems. I've been a bit short on time myself lately - congrats on the Super Bowl :drink: and let us know how all turns out.

El Presidente: Great to see stux and BBH have you sorted. I'm sure they (and the rest of us) will enjoy reading your next report. :peace:
Last edited by PistolPatch on 12 Feb 2011, 21:21, edited 9 times in total.
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