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First Wort Hopping II

Post #1 made 9 years ago
by joshua
A few Questions have Come up about FWH.

To Start check http://byo.com/mead/item/2958-pre-boil-hopping" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And http://brulosophy.com/2015/07/06/the-fi" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... t-results/

also, http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/h" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... t-hopping/

In interest of Self Promotion....
see viewtopic.php?f=150&t=2215 for Late wort hopping, and how the Hop Oils get distributed by Temperature.

Admin note: Joshua has experimented with FWH and has some first-hand experience with the results (which I have added to this post). We encourage others to perform similar experiments. Thanks for sharing this with us joshua.

The reason for this topic, is I made a 20L Mash of 2 row, and split it into 2 x 10L batches.

Both 90 minute Boil, One was a 60 minute hop addition of 15grams, and the Other a FWH of the Same hop amounts.

I had 2 fermenters, with the Same "House" Yeast, and both batches finished within 1.001.

It was not very difficult to taste the Higher Bitterness in the FWH.

Of Course, BIABACUS predicted it, as about 10% higher, due to the longer Time I set it to.

No need to change BIABACUS, just enter a More "Exact" hop time!
Last edited by joshua on 20 May 2016, 06:09, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #3 made 9 years ago
by Scott
This was one of the things on my "bucket list" to do, brew trying FWH. My last beer two weeks ago, did my first actual FWH. Too soon to know if it makes a difference... Seems like people might notice difference more with European Pilsners (?), reading or re-reading the articles - but pilsners are a style I brew a lot of. We'll see... But without doing side-by-side, hard to know the difference for sure.

Similarly, I have done the Hochkurz mash schedule 2-3 times with pilsners (Step Mash). Didn't this past time. Was going to, then got distracted and the temperature was already too high and didn't want to take the time to cool it back down... Have made some really nice beers when using the Hockkurz schedule, but am I SURE that it really was the mash schedule made a difference, or were there other factors...? Would probably need to do side-by-side tests.
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Post #4 made 9 years ago
by joshua
The step mash is a Pain! that is one of the reasons for FWH.

Simplicity, not time Clock, and real Lazy way to add bitterness.

Add the bitterness addition after the bag is Out, and take the hops out after flame-out, Easy.

The tough part is, Still, Do you use the Standard Hop Utilization Chart, or settle for 20%-25% Utilization??

Anyone have a Hop Analysis Lab nearby?
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Post #5 made 9 years ago
by Scott
Joshua, what you posted is really confusing... At least to me.

A Mash (or "Step Mash") is all about the Mash - building the malt body of the beer - not Bitterness (from hop additions). Hopping and mash as two totally different things, no? And step mash with BIAB (involving pulling the bag a couple inches while you heat the wort to a higher temperature) is a bit of a pain, but not too difficult.

"Standard hop utilization chart or settle for 20-25% utilization"...? That's really confusing too. I don't know what you mean. For my first FWH, think I took about 30% of the finishing hops (10 min and 0 min additions) and added as FWH.

Hop analysis labs - think there are a few nearby. Lots of hop business here in the Willamette Valley. But don't want to pay for testing anything, at this point. What was your point for testing hops? That is unclear...
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Post #6 made 9 years ago
by joshua
Scott,
"Sorry about that Chief"

I used to step mash, a real PAIN to to do.

I "Ramp Mash". I set my PID to ramp 1F/0.5C per minute, starting at 93F, and Stopping at my Scarification Temperature.
(Off-topic, I Know PP.)

The 20% to 25% number comes from many "Human BJCP Judges" that have compared FWH to Standard 60 minute hop additions.

It would be Nice to have a "Real, Scientific" test done on a side by side, 60 minute and FWH beer Test.

But, the $50 to $90 per test is a bit Costly!!
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Post #7 made 9 years ago
by joshua
There is an interesting thing that BIABACUS shows, about FWH and the Boil Times.

The Hop Bill (Based on Tinseth Formula),
For 19L batch of 1.050 SG beer

32.7 IBU Amarillo Pellets (9.5%AA) 14.8 grams = 0.523 ounces at 150 mins (First Wort Hopped)
32.5 IBU Amarillo Pellets (9.5%AA) 14.8 grams = 0.523 ounces at 120 mins (First Wort Hopped)
31.8 IBU Amarillo Pellets (9.5%AA) 14.8 grams = 0.523 ounces at 90 mins (First Wort Hopped)
31.1 IBU Amarillo Pellets (9.5%AA) 14.8 grams = 0.523 ounces at 75 mins (First Wort Hopped)
29.8 IBU Amarillo Pellets (9.5%AA) 14.8 grams = 0.523 ounces at 60 mins (Bitterness Addition)
18.0 IBU Amarillo Pellets (9.5%AA) 14.8 grams = 0.523 ounces at 20 mins (Flavor addition)
10.8 IBU Amarillo Pellets (9.5%AA) 14.8 grams = 0.523 ounces at 10 mins (Aroma addition)

Compared to a 60 minute addition, A 90 minute addition is 2.8 IBU(6.7%)stronger, and at 120 minutes is 2.9IBU(9.7%) more.

What ever hop you use, there is little Difference in the IBU's from the 60 minute addition, and a FWH addition, how ever longer it is..
Last edited by joshua on 21 May 2016, 08:18, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #8 made 9 years ago
by Lumpy5oh
You continued to say "first wort hopped" from your 90min addition all the way down to 10min. Those additions are boil additions and not FWH. And saying "The step mash is a pain! That is one of the reasons for FWH." Gives me the impression that FWH means something different to you than it to us. What exactly is FWH to you? In your own words please.
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Post #9 made 9 years ago
by joshua
Lumpy, 1st wort hopped is when you toss you Bitterness/Flavor hops in after Mashout. The additional hop times will be corrected.

The Hop Time Starts 10-25 minutes before the Boil Starts, so a 60 minute Boil(BAD) gives you around 90 minutes of Hop Utilization.

When we do a 90 boil(Great) we end up with around 120 minutes of Hop Utilization.

And for me, since a squeeze the &^$# out the bag, I end up with VIB near TWN, and need to boil up to 120 minutes, So I get 150 minutes of FWH Utilization.

Some of Us add a Flavor Hop at 20 minutes, and Sometimes an Aroma hop at 10 minutes.
I put the 60/20/10 minute Additions Because some Recipes have FWH,60,20,and 10 minute hop addition.
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Post #10 made 9 years ago
by Scott
Joshua, so with FWH from 150 to 75 min in multiple (4) additions. Then at 60 minutes to start bittering. And you have 4 Multiple FWH additions - not just ONE at the start...

The way I've always heard it explained FWH was one addition as soon as you pull your mash bag. Hadn't heard anyone do that before, and how the chemical bonding (may be wrong terminology) has been explained I would expect one time as soon as mash bag pulled - so the earliest one - for best FWH effect...? For what you're talking about you will have an addition right before it starts to boil (assuming not boiling until 60 min)...
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Post #11 made 9 years ago
by joshua
Scott,
Some Recipes show a FWH, then a 60 minute and a 20 minute and a 10 minute Hop Addition.
That makes a very Hoppy Beer!

Technically, FWH is the Only Addition needed, at Mashout, so the Hops can have Full Isomerization. see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha_acid

The 60 minute Boil would be a 75 minute FWH, and "Our" 90 Minute Boil would be 120 Minute FWH.

The Numbers show the approximate IBU's from 1 oz of 9.5%AA Hops dropped at the time listed.

You can choose the 120 minute time for FWH in BIABACUS, and Adjust the Hop Quantity, to get what you Want/Need.

Of course, if you have a 300,000 BTU Jet propane heater, you should adjust the FWH time accordingly.
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Post #12 made 9 years ago
by Scott
Joshua...I don't understand. Why is 60 minutes actually 75 and 90 minutes actually 120 minutes with FWH??? Etc. Why do I feel like I'm in The Twilight Zone...? :headhit:

It almost sounds like you are replicating the instructions for regular hopping for FWH. So if there are 3 "regular" hop additions at 60, 10, and 0 for example...you also add 3 FWH additions at 120, 90 and 75...for example. And maybe a fourth at 150 too...? So I'm confused why you are doing the multiple FWH additions. Why not just one FWH addition instantly after pulling the bag?

I normally take my 60 minute bittering addition and bump that to 75 minute for better hop utilization. But that is NOT FWH... Just trying to make better use of the bittering hop addition. It sounds as though you are saying it is FWH... And if you are doing a 90 minute boil, then your 75 min and 90 min additions would not be FWH, rather regular bittering additions.

According to all the Brewing Articles I've read on FWH, several of which you were the person to provide the link, FWH is supposed to be added directly after the grain is pulled, and while the wort is heating but before the boil starts, to give FWH hops time to interact with the mash before the boil. :headhit: Your explanation of procedures does not seem to match the brewing articles.
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Post #13 made 9 years ago
by mally
I may be wrong but the way I think Joshua is explaining it is in terms of calculations.
joshua wrote:32.7 IBU Amarillo Pellets (9.5%AA) 14.8 grams = 0.523 ounces at 150 mins (First Wort Hopped)
32.5 IBU Amarillo Pellets (9.5%AA) 14.8 grams = 0.523 ounces at 120 mins (First Wort Hopped)
31.8 IBU Amarillo Pellets (9.5%AA) 14.8 grams = 0.523 ounces at 90 mins (First Wort Hopped)
31.1 IBU Amarillo Pellets (9.5%AA) 14.8 grams = 0.523 ounces at 75 mins (First Wort Hopped)
29.8 IBU Amarillo Pellets (9.5%AA) 14.8 grams = 0.523 ounces at 60 mins (Bitterness Addition)
18.0 IBU Amarillo Pellets (9.5%AA) 14.8 grams = 0.523 ounces at 20 mins (Flavor addition)
10.8 IBU Amarillo Pellets (9.5%AA) 14.8 grams = 0.523 ounces at 10 mins (Aroma addition)
This is not a recipe/schedule, it is info to show calculated IBU's.

Is that correct Joshua? If so does that make it easier to understand Scott?
Last edited by mally on 21 May 2016, 18:36, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #14 made 9 years ago
by Mad_Scientist
I too see it as calculated IBU. As joshua states, there is not much more isomerization going on after 60 minutes. A 90 minute boil could be calculated at 90 mins. for a FWH.

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Post #15 made 9 years ago
by joshua
Mally, you are correct, that should have had a "table" format.

It is not a hop recipe.

I meant it to show the 120 minute "FWH" addition is very Close to a 60 minute addition.

60 minute would be 29.8IBU, and the 120 FWH would be 32.5 IBU.


SCOTT, the FWH addition has 15 to 30 minutes More Time to the Sweet Liquor than the 60 minute addition.

A 90 minute boil, Plus the time from Mashout to boil, can be 20-30 minute or more hop time or close to 120 minutes in the kettle.

A 60 minute Boil, Plus the mashout to Boil is also around 15-20 minutes, so a FWH has around 75 minutes in the Kettle.

Always use a hop sack with FWH, so they can be pulled at flameout.

Hops will add bitterness until the Wort has cooled to 67C/154F.

I have made a beer with a small amount of high 12.9AA% FWH.

15 minute pre-boil, 90 minutes boil and 20 minutes to Chill.

I planned a 60 minute addition in BIABACUS.
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Post #16 made 9 years ago
by Scott
I missed that you had actually posted an Isomerizarion Table... Thanks for chiming in gentlemen (and clarifying Joshua). It makes more sense now.

I always use a hopsack. But in my first FWH session a couple weeks ago I used the same hopsack for the first wort hops as I did the remainder And I left hops in until cool (so did not pull the hopsack at 0 minutes...). Well in 10 minutes, my wort chiller has the wort down to between 70 and 80°F. Not sure how long after flameout to get it to 154°F but that happens quickly; I would guess three minutes.

Initially when hoisting up my BIAB bag with the grain in it I leave it hanging to drip into the wort...and clipped the top of the FWH bag onto the side of the pot. About 15 minutes later I squeezed the remaining / much cooler bag and then pull it (dump contents into lawn clippings bin), rince it out in kitchen sink, then tie the hop sack to above pully hook so is closer to middle of pot.

After cooling the wort I squeeze my hop bag so that I do not lose any wort in the hops. (Clean hands, etc.)

See anything wrong with my process? Again I have done FWH only the one time. The beer (a Pilsner) is a couple days away from finishing up in the fermenter.
Last edited by Scott on 22 May 2016, 00:43, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #17 made 9 years ago
by joshua
Scott, your Process sounds good!

The only difference from what I do is, I have an old BIAB bag(a paint strainer) that is put in the Kettle right after the Bag is Hoisted.

I have it 2" shorter than the Kettle, and a few Stainless steel Ball bearings, in the Bag to keep it from floating.

That way I can add the Flavor addition, and Aroma hops when needed.

I hope the Pilsner turns out as good as a Very Pale Ale, I make.
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Post #18 made 9 years ago
by Rick
Thanks for clearing this up guys, I was also fairly confused.

Joshua is hard to follow, but over the years here I find that if I go over his post very thoroughly ... I can make sense of what he is trying to communicate.

Sometimes, being succinct in one's posts can take up as much time (to a reader) as a well articulated/wordy post does!
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Post #20 made 9 years ago
by PistolPatch
Scott wrote:... After cooling the wort I squeeze my hop bag so that I do not lose any wort in the hops. (Clean hands, etc.)

See anything wrong with my process?...
The only thing worrying me Scott is squeezing the hopsock.If I were to do that (and I wouldn't), I'd be using sanitised gloves.

The reason why I wouldn't do it, besides the infection worry, is I really don't have any idea on what you are squeezing out of those hops... in a commercial brewery, they are whirlpooling, not squeezing. Maybe it's okay - dunno :scratch:.

My usual method is to suspend the hop sock a bit so its bottom is just dangling in the wort a bit. This seems to work pretty well.

BIABacus FWH Calcs

I think I wrote this on the board the other day (hopefully not this thread)...

In later versions of the BIABacus, for FWH, you won't have to put in a time, it will just work off your boil time as that is the way it should be.

You'll also notice, in the current BIABacus (PR1.3T), that there is no difference to IBU's whether (assuming you have mins typed in) whether you type FWH or not. The reason for this is that on the very sparse info we have, whilst laboratory IBU's are higher with FWH, the perceived IBU's (what you taste) are not. For this reason, we've chosen to not change the IBU's for FWH.

;)
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 22 May 2016, 20:35, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #21 made 9 years ago
by PistolPatch
The only FWH data we have at this stage (what I was referring to in my last post), was the original FWH experiment by George Fix but in that, they were using low alpha acid noble hops. I'm sure though that on the high AA% hops, the truth is much more in line with what joshua is finding.

:peace:
PP
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Post #22 made 9 years ago
by Scott
PistolPatch wrote:
Scott wrote:... After cooling the wort I squeeze my hop bag so that I do not lose any wort in the hops. (Clean hands, etc.)

See anything wrong with my process?...
The only thing worrying me Scott is squeezing the hopsock.If I were to do that (and I wouldn't), I'd be using sanitised gloves.

The reason why I wouldn't do it, besides the infection worry, is I really don't have any idea on what you are squeezing out of those hops... in a commercial brewery, they are whirlpooling, not squeezing. Maybe it's okay - dunno :scratch:.
PP
PP - Clean and sanitized hands...less to clean. I don't know either, maybe I should just let it hang...? Perhaps that is a better practice. :scratch: But I have done it this way for years and haven't had any problems that I know of... And it gives me a few ounces more wort.
Last edited by Scott on 23 May 2016, 06:23, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #23 made 9 years ago
by Scott
Just had a PM from PP which said...

"In a rush. Hops are preservatives so maybe you are right? Let's not push it as best practice though :lol:.

Also, try the difference between draining and squeezing - you'll find there is not that much in it."

No, don't think there will be much difference. Only a few ounces. And I do like to maximize efficiencies...and get every last ounce of beer possible (even if I drink it "flat-ish). But maybe I'll give it a shot next time just to prove it to myself. And would I present it as "best practice" to in any way touch wort going into fermenter to a newbie...no. Naturally I think I am more meticulous than most (etc.), which probably sets me up (from supreme uber-confidence) to supremely "step in it" one day. :kisswink:
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Post #24 made 9 years ago
by joshua
I do not want to start a fight, BUT, if you taste the Hop sack Wort, it will knock you Back!

Very Strong Bitterness and very Strong Flavor!.

That is why I use the Paint strainer bag, fully Open, to get the Hops in the Wort.

And Yes, I do squeeze to get that last drop of Hop Goodness!
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Post #25 made 9 years ago
by Scott
Love your last sentence! Does sum up the feelings to an extent...
joshua wrote:And Yes, I do squeeze to get that last drop of Hop Goodness!
How large a paint strainer bag do you have? Getting about time to replace my hop bag.
Last edited by Scott on 25 May 2016, 09:51, edited 1 time in total.
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