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Imperial Stout

Post #1 made 9 years ago
by rickoles
Hi everyone

I'm planning on making an imperial stout this weekend and I need you to give me some input on my recipe :) - details below.

This recipe has been in the works for a month or two. I've based it off information supplied in...
https://byo.com/stout/item/1337-russian ... m-the-pros
http://drinks.seriouseats.com/2012/01/h ... stout.html
http://beersmith.com/blog/2010/02/28/ru ... t-recipes/

Basically I want to layer my grains for complexity, have a high IBU for balance and hop stand or dry hop for added flavour without being too hop forward. I was thinking Chinook and Columbus although I've seen people also use Cascade. I'm also wondering whether I should throw in some adjuncts seeing as this is a big rare beer which I won't be doing often - I want to make it the best it can be.

I plan on bottling and keeping some for years++

Can you please have a look and put your 2cents in?

Thanks!

[center]BIABacus Pre-Release 1.3T RECIPE REPORT[/center]
[center]BIAB Recipe Designer, Calculator and Scaler.[/center]
[center](Please visit http://www.biabrewer.info" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; for the latest version.)[/center]
[center]Recipe Batch Number and Dates[/center]

Recipe Overview

Original Gravity (OG): 1.104
IBU's (Tinseth): 90
Bitterness to Gravity Ratio: 0.86
Colour: 223.2 EBC = 113.3 SRM

Kettle Efficiency (as in EIB and EAW): 59.7 %
Efficiency into Fermentor (EIF): 49.2 %

Mash: 90 mins at 64 C = 147.2 F
Boil: 90 min

The Grain Bill (Also includes extracts, sugars and adjuncts)

60% WY Pale Ale Malt (6.5 EBC = 3.3 SRM) 6000 grams = 13.23 pounds
6% WY Special W (300 EBC = 152.3 SRM) 600 grams = 1.32 pounds
3% SM Roasted Barley (1600 EBC = 812.2 SRM) 300 grams = 0.66 pounds
6% SM Brown Malt (515 EBC = 261.4 SRM) 600 grams = 1.32 pounds
3% SM Chocolate Malt (1183.5 EBC = 600.8 SRM) 300 grams = 0.66 pounds
6% WY Carafa Type 1 Special (900 EBC = 456.9 SRM) 600 grams = 1.32 pounds
6% WY Caraaroma Malt (400 EBC = 203 SRM) 600 grams = 1.32 pounds
10% WY Melanodin Malt (70 EBC = 35.5 SRM) 1000 grams = 2.2 pounds

The Hop Bill (Based on Tinseth Formula)

90 IBU Warrior Pellets (15.6%AA) 62.9 grams = 2.217 ounces at 60 mins
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Last edited by rickoles on 15 Feb 2016, 13:24, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #2 made 9 years ago
by PistolPatch
Hi there rickoles :peace:,

I've been lazy on the forum recently so I haven't read your prior posts so am unsure how much you know or don't know. I hope you have been looked after so far.

Given the above and that I don't brew stouts myself, here are some general impressions...

1. Firstly, I really like that you have provided links for where you are getting your recipe ideas from. That is great!!! (I don't have time to explore those links though sorry.)

2. There are probably too many malts in your recipe. One thing you get to know when you communicate with professional or craft brewers is that they don't use a lot of different malts or hops in a single recipe. (I've never seen the BIABacus malt section C stretched so far :)).

3. I'm not sure how many brews you have done before, if any, but an imperial stout is a big beer!!! I would want several beers under my belt before attempting this. It's one of the few beers I would recommend doing several pre-boil gravity checks. (I can give more info on why if needs be.)

4. I'm not understanding the "Unknown" hop in Section D at 0 mins. What is your thinking on that line?

Hope those points help :dunno:.

You also say you'd like to make the beer this weekend. Never worry about delaying a beer for a week or so until you are certain you have a solid plan. We all rush in and do a brew at least a few times where we wish we had waited to get the ingredients correct.

So, keep posting up new BIABacus files for us to check until you reckon you are good to go ;),
PP
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Post #3 made 9 years ago
by rickoles
Thanks for your reply PP!

2. The reason I chose to use lots of malts is in the first article I linked
Like your biscuit malts, layer the roasted malts as well. Up to 20% of the recipe is dark malt and you want complexity from these. Use different proportions of the dark malts to get up to the total percentage for the brew. Multiple dark malts are the way to go.
I guess I'm relying heavily on this one source that could be wrong. I will research some more.

I agree with you that it looks messy and over-the-top however I thought with aging the different characteristics of the malts would add complexity? My standard layout is base and crystal with maybe a flavoursome malt if required - I'm not sure if that will work for an imperial stout.

60% WY Pale Ale Malt - Great base malt
6% WY Special W - Bread crust, raisins, nutty flavour, caramel
3% SM Roasted Barley - Roasted flavour
6% SM Brown Malt - Coffee like
3% SM Chocolate Malt - Burnt toast dryness and hints of bittersweet chocolate flavour
6% WY Carafa Type 1 - Dark colour without the roast (wanted it darker without being astringent)
6% WY Caraaroma Malt - Roasted nuts, dark caramel, died fruit
10% WY Melanodin Malt - Intense malt aroma and unique brewing characteristics

3. I have brewed about 23 beers to date but I'm still new and learning / refining my process every time. I have never done a pre-boil gravity check so I am wondering why you suggest it.

4. I haven't decided whether I'll do a hop stand or dry hop and what hops they will be. The "unknown" is just a place holder.

Thanks for your feedback. You have me thinking on my malt bill and I will definitely be doing some more research.
Last edited by rickoles on 16 Feb 2016, 08:40, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #4 made 9 years ago
by PistolPatch
Okey dokey, just had a read of that article. More importantly, to me is the reasoning you put beside each malt above. I reckon that is fantastic!

Given the above, and if no one jumps in with experience with this style, then I think stick with your plan. (I think I mentioned I'mn not experienced in this style so I can't help you with the hop side either sorry :(.)

In that article, a 70-90 minute boil is mentioned but you might like to up your boil time in the BIABacus because...

Those guys are evaporating a lot off by doing a very slow sparge. In other words, their wort is boiling as and when it drains into their kettle. Effectively, this means they are doing a much longer boil than 70-90 minutes. (I hope that makes sense to you???) So maybe up your boil to 120 mins? (This will also result in you needing a tad less grain.)

The reason why I suggest taking a few pre-boil readings, in this case, is because it is such a high gravity brew. The BIABacus seems to be able to predict the kettle efficiency of the high gravity brews quite well, but it is still safer to check your progress on the brew day until we get more data. I've run out of time now but a bit later, I'll try and give you a real life example of how to use the volumes and gravities you measure at the start and during the boil to see if, on the day, you are in the ball-park.

Once again though, great work rickoles :salute:.
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Post #5 made 9 years ago
by Rick
I also think there are too many malts. I get the desire for complexity, and the layering that ensues ... but you also have to think about how these malts will attenuate. While you can use up to 20% of 'dark' malts, I would imagine this is for a very full/sweet finished product. Mashing low and using Chico still may produce a FG in the mid/upper 1.030's.

The brown malt seems redundant to me, the darker malts will mask it. Carafa special is also not going to add much flavor characteristic among the malts in this recipe, but will certainly affect attenuation. I'd rather see higher percentages on the roasted barley and chocolate malt, as they should be the real focus for any good stout recipe.

Additional late hops for this style, kinda pointless IMO .. unless you are going for that slick oily mouthfeel.

The crystal malts look good, and I'd be wary of the melanoidin unless you have a lot of experience using it already. That stuff is potent, and 10% sends a red flag up for me.

This could be the recipe for the best stout ever made, so don't let me sway you ... just my .02c.

I just think it'll turn into a syrupy mess as it is, hope I'm wrong. If this recipe was worked up to over a few brews, I wouldn't even bat an eye. Jumping into it like this is pretty risky. It doesn't take a complex malt bill to produce a complex flavor that will mature well.
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Post #6 made 9 years ago
by Rick
This thread I'm linking below is still in limbo, but I do plan to update it within the next few weeks. Feel free to jump in, so we can compare notes!

http://www.biabrewer.info/viewtopic.php ... 88&p=51662

Mine is already brewed and fermented. OG finished high, so I diluted with some of the porter I brewed along side as well as pitched most of the starter (only decanted a small bit).

I have 2 bottles of Serpent's Stout from Lost Abbey, and plan to hold a blind taste test once it's ready. It's basically ready now. 1.104 (avg over 2 separately diluted fermentations), to 1.021.

My hat goes off to Matt Webster for giving that recipe, it's blowing me away at every sip. It's so good, that I chose to hold off at barrel aging it ... talk about stopping a freight train. My mind was pretty made up.
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Post #7 made 9 years ago
by rickoles
Thanks both of you for your replies! I just noticed that PP is from Perth like me and Rick is my name too :)

PP - Thanks I'll follow your suggestions and up my boil time as-well-as taking some pre-boil readings.

Rick - Yes it could be the best recipe ever but it could also be the worst! Thanks for your .02c and the link provided - I completely forgot to use the BCS book as a reference! :headhit:

I did some more research yesterday because of what PP said and decided to reduce the amount of malts. I pretty much did what you suggested Rick and took out the Carafa and Medoldian - I do want to keep the Brown Malt for now however. I also changed the Caraaroma and Special W to only Special B and reduced the amount - these malts are all very similar so wanted to simplify and go with a favourite. I also wasn't sure if I should add a medium crystal such as Caramunich for complexity. I came up with the following:

75% WY Pale Ale Malt
6% SM Roasted Barley
3% SM Chocolate Malt
6% SM Brown Malt
5% DG Special B
5% Caramunich T2 Malt?

Rick that recipe by Matt Webster is something I would've never dreamt up and I'm leaning towards going with that. I've never had Serpent's Stout but the reviews on Ratebeer sound great. Thanks so much for the link!

My absolute favourite stout of all time is Brewdog Tokyo 2014 which is 18.6%. I know I'll never be able to reproduce this but if I can get some of those port and fruity flavours in my stout I will be wrapped.
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Imperial Stout

Post #8 made 9 years ago
by Contrarian
That most recent recipe looks good. It is not unusual to have around 10% roast barley in a RIS so the combo of RB and choc should be fine. The other specialties look ok to me.

I would question the need for the late hops. Most of these beers will need a minimum of 6 months in the bottle before drinking and I have tasted some excellent beers that were more than 4 years old. In that time frame hop flavour and aroma will fade quickly so it might be a waste of hops more than anything else.

Doing BIAB it is very difficult to hit those high gravities. The closest I have got recently was by doing a 120 minute boil and I think a 150+ minute boil might be better. This means you are starting with a thinner mash and might get a slightly better efficiency overall. I would also suggest a 120 minute plus mash with a few good stirs through the process.

Another consideration that I was discussing with some other posters recently was the idea of a BIAB partigyle. If you have a second kettle you can pull and drain the bag and then transfer into another kettle of water at around mash out temps for 10-15 minutes. This could then make a small stout and utilizes a bit more of the available sugar that you can't access when targeting the big numbers!

Post #9 made 9 years ago
by rickoles
Thanks for the input Contrarian :)

My freezer is full of hops so I don't mind using them knowing they will fade somewhat. I actually like it because its another way you notice the beer change over time.

120min mash and boil sounds good to me.

I am going to do a parti-gyle although I don't have a second kettle. I'll leave the grains to rest / drain into a large bowl and after the main beer is done I'll rinse the grains in the kettle for 15min or so to get a pre-boil gravity I'm happy with. This is going to be a long day!
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Imperial Stout

Post #10 made 9 years ago
by Contrarian
Sounds like a good plan! You just need to get that first mash going nice and early and it isn't too bad a day. I've done double brew days where I didn't mash in until after 10 and was still done by 8.

Even though the first mash and boil are long it doesn't mean the second round have to be!

Let us know how it goes. Brewing big was the big drawback of BIAB for me for a long time so I'm interested to hear how people get it done!

Post #11 made 9 years ago
by Rick
I have absolutely no issues with making wort for high gravity brews. As long as you make an appropriate volume for the size of your kettle, the BIABacus should be pretty spot on with a regular 90m mash and boil.
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Imperial Stout

Post #12 made 9 years ago
by Contrarian
I just found that I hit a point where I was using so much grain and the returns weren't there. 1.070 was achievable but since going to a 120 minute boil I've got over 1.090 without much more grain.

What sort of gravities are you taking about?

Post #13 made 9 years ago
by Rick
1.090-1.095 a few times without using added sugar to the boil. Those were all likely 75 to 90m boils.

I recently attempted 9G VIF @ 1.101 w/ a 60 minute boil, but 13% of the fermentables were dextrose. Ended low on volume and 1.116. Oops.

No partigyle yet, which is really stupid on my part. Always seems to be a time crunch.
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Post #15 made 9 years ago
by Rick
Contrarian wrote:Interesting. I have often made up gravity points using DME and found it doesn't impact taste in any noticeable way.

What size pot are you using to get 9G into the fermenter?
I just checked my file, and it's 9.25G VIF with the 13% sugar. I could get 8.45G VIF with all-grain and all fermentables in the mash. My kettles are 19G.
Last edited by Rick on 24 Feb 2016, 20:43, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #16 made 9 years ago
by rickoles
I brewed this yesterday using the last recipe I listed and HS of Chinook and Cascade.

It took me ~9hrs all up from strike to pitch! I didn't bother with the partigyle because it was already 9pm.

It went into the fermenter thick and black! I put a light behind the syphon so I could see if I was getting trub and there was quite a bit there even though I let it rest a while.

Taking a reading was interesting! The wort was sooo thick that when I pushed the hydrometer down is sat on 1.102 and when I pulled it up it sat on 1.106 haha! My target was 1.107 so I'm very happy with the results. Now to see what attenuation I can achieve...

Thanks everyone for your input and responses.
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Post #17 made 9 years ago
by PistolPatch
That's amazing rickoles :thumbs: :clap: :champ:.

Would have loved to have seen that hydrometer sample :o. I've never brewed anything like that so love hearing how you guys go.

I suppose if you get stuck like that on taking a gravity reading, you could dilute the solution by half with ordinary water and then just double your hydrometer reading. I'm guessing, though, that you might be using the small tube that comes with the hydrometer? They're made to throw in the garbage bin; you'd definitely run into problems with that on a high gravity brew. Buy yourself a good 'un such as this for your next brew.

Where's your pics?

:)
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 02 Mar 2016, 16:42, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #18 made 9 years ago
by rickoles
Hi PP, thanks :)

It was the stock standard tube you're right. I ended up averaging the two reading to 1.104 (a few points error on a beer this big can't hurt right?).

I never even thought of pics... Maybe in a few weeks when I brew my English barleywine with the same gravity.

It's bubbling away nicely now. I have a good feeling it will turn out well.
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