Hi,
I'm interested in hearing from those who are using a cooler for SMS. I've read some interesting postings on this forum, and had some questions about this process.
What size cooler would one use for ~5.5G VIF batches (10 to 12G mash volume)? Alternatively, what batch sizes are you producing with your X quart cooler?
Volume Loss from Lauter (Section X): is 1L/kg the rule of thumb? I imagine it depends on the size (internal dimensions) of the cooler, i.e. more deadspace results in more loss?
Does your Efficiency Into Boil (EIB) suffer from a lack of mash out? And if so, by approx. how many points?
I can see that this method has some limitations, e.g. not easy to adjust (raise) mash temperature, but I still have problems obtaining my targeted temperature when mashing in my kettle (with bag). I'll be under a few degrees, apply heat for a couple of minutes, stir and wait ... temp seems OK, then 10 minutes later the temp is a few degrees over target.
Thanks, and Cheers!
BDP
Post #2 made 11 years ago
I don't know about your cooler idea but a couple of things jump out from your mash.
Are you insulating your kettle at all? I wrap my kettle with a sleeping bag to help retain mash temps.
You said that you apply heat and then stir? You need to stir as you heat. Remember also that the kettle will be hotter than the mash and transfer some more heat after the burner is shut off. Kill the heat a couple of degrees short of your target and things will be fine.
Really if the temp swings are only a couple of degrees you don't need to stress too much. Wide swings and then there should be some concern.
Are you insulating your kettle at all? I wrap my kettle with a sleeping bag to help retain mash temps.
You said that you apply heat and then stir? You need to stir as you heat. Remember also that the kettle will be hotter than the mash and transfer some more heat after the burner is shut off. Kill the heat a couple of degrees short of your target and things will be fine.
Really if the temp swings are only a couple of degrees you don't need to stress too much. Wide swings and then there should be some concern.
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Post #3 made 11 years ago
BDP, it sounds like you want to Go 2 vessel Brewing....Some call Mash in a Bag...MIAB.
If you have used BIABACUS, you need to Know your VIP and your Grain bill, and that will tell you the Mash Voloume.
There are MANY Cooler's/Eskey's available in Many quart/Liter volumes, why not go with a 50-60 liter Cooler, and look up Decoction Mashing http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter16-4.html.
This will let you MIAB and mash in Steps, and Go to Mash-out.
BTDT YMMV
If you have used BIABACUS, you need to Know your VIP and your Grain bill, and that will tell you the Mash Voloume.
There are MANY Cooler's/Eskey's available in Many quart/Liter volumes, why not go with a 50-60 liter Cooler, and look up Decoction Mashing http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter16-4.html.
This will let you MIAB and mash in Steps, and Go to Mash-out.
BTDT YMMV
Honest Officer, I swear to Drunk, I am Not God.
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Post #4 made 11 years ago
BDP, I think you're getting discouraged too easily or perhaps frustrated but I understand why. You don't need to look for a new method, you just need to learn your system. With my propane rig I just mash in and stabilize, wrap a blanket around it and go take a nap for 90 minutes. 9 gallons of water, 12 pounds of grain, and a stainless steel keggle is a lot of thermal mass and I only lose about 3-5 degrees over that 90 minutes. I believe that most of the mash's work is done in the first 10-30 minutes anyway so I don't worry about it too much.
I have also learned through experience that if I do decide to add heat, I need to stir like crazy and then when I shut the flame off the temperature will continue to rise another 4 degrees (F) over the next 5-10 minutes after the heat is turned off. Knowing this, I simply shut the flame off 4 degrees short of my target and am good to go. You stated "I apply heat for a couple of minutes, stir and wait ... temp seems OK, then 10 minutes later the temp is a few degrees over target"....I am willing to bet that it is consistently the same amount of degrees "over target". See where I am going with this?
---Todd
I have also learned through experience that if I do decide to add heat, I need to stir like crazy and then when I shut the flame off the temperature will continue to rise another 4 degrees (F) over the next 5-10 minutes after the heat is turned off. Knowing this, I simply shut the flame off 4 degrees short of my target and am good to go. You stated "I apply heat for a couple of minutes, stir and wait ... temp seems OK, then 10 minutes later the temp is a few degrees over target"....I am willing to bet that it is consistently the same amount of degrees "over target". See where I am going with this?
---Todd
Last edited by thughes on 22 Jun 2015, 10:29, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #5 made 11 years ago
I think I'm applying too much heat, and/or not waiting long enough for the temp to stabilize after mash-in. What I find surprising is that even though I stir while applying heat, there seems to be a long delay until the temp peaks/stabilizes. I guess I just haven't developed the touch yet. Will wait longer after mash-in for the temperature to stabilize before determining whether to apply heat or not, and apply less heat if needed. Also wondering ... is the enzymatic action exothermic in the early stages?
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Post #6 made 11 years ago
BDP, at 131F there is Some Beta amylase and Some beta-glucanase activity.
At 140F you'll have Full Beta amylase, and a bit of Alpha amylase.
Check https://byo.com/stories/item/1497-the-s ... ep-mashing
At 140F you'll have Full Beta amylase, and a bit of Alpha amylase.
Check https://byo.com/stories/item/1497-the-s ... ep-mashing
Honest Officer, I swear to Drunk, I am Not God.
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Post #7 made 11 years ago
Hey Joshua, thanks for the decoction mash idea. Another would be mash infusion: withholding some of the TWN to use to bring the mash up to 77C.
Reference, Palmer's Mash Infusion Equation:
Wa = (T2 - T1)(0.41G + Wm)/(Tw - T2)
In order to calculate the amount of water to withhold from the mash, I re-worked the equation, assuming that:
Wm = TWN - Wa
, where TWN is Total Water Needed as per BIABacus.
Wa = (T2 - T1)(0.41G + TWN)/(Tw - T1)
I welcome any corrections
Cheers
Reference, Palmer's Mash Infusion Equation:
Wa = (T2 - T1)(0.41G + Wm)/(Tw - T2)
In order to calculate the amount of water to withhold from the mash, I re-worked the equation, assuming that:
Wm = TWN - Wa
, where TWN is Total Water Needed as per BIABacus.
Wa = (T2 - T1)(0.41G + TWN)/(Tw - T1)
I welcome any corrections
Cheers
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- From Canada
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Post #8 made 11 years ago
BDP, It looks OK, But, it has been 6 years since I was a MIAB Brewer.
I used a Site that has a Decoction Calculator, And Used all the TWN to mash, then drained the Decoction Volume, Heated it to near Boil and added it back.
The site was http://www.franklinbrew.org/tools/decoction2.html, and sadly, it is only Quarts, Pounds, and Pints(US).
I used a Site that has a Decoction Calculator, And Used all the TWN to mash, then drained the Decoction Volume, Heated it to near Boil and added it back.
The site was http://www.franklinbrew.org/tools/decoction2.html, and sadly, it is only Quarts, Pounds, and Pints(US).
Honest Officer, I swear to Drunk, I am Not God.
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Post #9 made 11 years ago
BDP - I have a mash infusion calculator that I developed in spreadsheet form if you would like it?
It uses macros though so would only work in Excel
Alternatively, give me your specs & I can run it to double check.
Designed originally for full volume mash infusions; it would normally need to know;
Temp of infusion water, Temp of the mash, The amount of grain in the mash, Volume of mash, L/G - liquor grain ratio, desired temp to reach etc.
It uses macros though so would only work in Excel
Alternatively, give me your specs & I can run it to double check.
Designed originally for full volume mash infusions; it would normally need to know;
Temp of infusion water, Temp of the mash, The amount of grain in the mash, Volume of mash, L/G - liquor grain ratio, desired temp to reach etc.
G B
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I spent lots of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I squandered
I've stopped drinking, but only when I'm asleep
I ONCE gave up women and alcohol - it was the worst 20 minutes of my life
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Post #10 made 11 years ago
Adding more equipment will only complicate this BDP. You are obviously uising a good solid kettle and base. In toher words, when you turn off the flame, heat is still radiating into the kettle. So, stir before taking a temp and cut heat about a degree before you get to desired mash temp.BDP wrote:I still have problems obtaining my targeted temperature when mashing in my kettle (with bag). I'll be under a few degrees, apply heat for a couple of minutes, stir and wait ... temp seems OK, then 10 minutes later the temp is a few degrees over target...
Pure BIAB (full volume BIAB) is by far the easiest method of mash temp control there is. Add an esky/cooler into the picture and you introduce strike temp problems followed by an uneven mash temp (coolers have a big range of hot and cold spots - everyone criticises that but no one really knows if that is bad or good).
Many things should be looked at before you go two-vessel, the first thing being that there is no reason to go two-vessel.
If temp control is your problem, the cooler is only going to complicate it. I used to batch sparge and the difference in temps from one part of the mash to the other is amazing and you can't stir like you can in BIAB as you lose too much heat.
PP
P.S. Pay attention to your one vessel system, understand if it is a heavy or light one and treat it accordingly. The BIABacus has over-rides to adjust for heavy or light systems. More vessels have zero benefits for the majority of home brewers. The only benefit more vessels has to any homebrewer is if they are force into a compromise (eg limited heat source or small kettle).
Last edited by PistolPatch on 25 Jun 2015, 21:32, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #11 made 11 years ago
Mally - I plugged a couple of formulas into a spreadsheet already, so I think I am well armed. Appreciate the offer though 
. Thank you!
Joshua - decoction sounds like the way to go, should I go 2 vessel at some point. Thanks for the idea.
PP - sound advice as always, thanks. Also, the cooler/esky is one more thing to clean, and find a home for in my already overcrowded garage. I don't plan to give up on my bag yet, but one day it will give out on me
. Next brew I will do as you & Todd suggest regarding the application of heat.
Cheers
. Thank you!Joshua - decoction sounds like the way to go, should I go 2 vessel at some point. Thanks for the idea.
PP - sound advice as always, thanks. Also, the cooler/esky is one more thing to clean, and find a home for in my already overcrowded garage. I don't plan to give up on my bag yet, but one day it will give out on me
. Next brew I will do as you & Todd suggest regarding the application of heat.Cheers
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