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1st & 2nd BIAB Beers Brewed - some issues with the BIABacus

Post #1 made 11 years ago
by Scott
Well, finally did it. Wife got me a bunch of new brew equipment for Christmas, so I was able to do 5 gallon BIAB brews. (5 gal into Corny Keg). Before this, just have been extract with grain mostly, and a partial mash... So going backwards, was shooting for 5 1/2 gallon into fermenter and roughly 6 gallon or just a little more, in the bottom of the boil kettle when done.

Did two first batches at once. One a German Pilsner and the other a Vienna Lager. Using trash cans for a water bath to help keep temperature as consistent as possible. Cool new German fermenters, plastic... Water bath not working as well (plastic fermenter wants to float, can only put about 5 gal water in, not appx 10 gal like before).

Got my German Pilsner recipe from Brewing Classic Styles book, and the Vienna recipe from The Pour Report - blog. Both looked to be the same final size that I'm looking for...5 gal of finished beer into the Corny Keg.

BIABacus Issues:

1) The amounts being shown under Substitutions - both for Fermentables and Hops - seem to be cut back by 12-13% in the spreadsheet. I don't understand why... I show Desired Volume into Fermentor (VIF) @ 5.5 Gal. I put each VAW (Volume of Ambient Wort) for recipe @ 6.00 Gal. Seems to match up, but then why is it cutting me back on what the BIABacus wants put in? I may be doing something wrong...but can't see what. I stuck with the amounts (roughly) called for with the recipe rather than cutting things back. Had this issue on both of my recipes.

2) Pilsner - In addition to the 90 minute mash did a 90 minute boil (called for in the recipe). But when done, was short on water...probably just over 5 gallons in the bottom of the boil tank. Initial gravity was 1057 @ 58 deg F. I added 1/2 gallon of water and took another reading and it was 1051 @ 54 deg F. Figured that was pretty close so left it alone. Am I supposed to be boiling with the lid on the boil tank? That would seem to stop some evaporation. Just not sure why I'm losing so much water... Also, mashed 90 min @ appx 147 deg F. Recipe didn't note anything about mash out but I did it anyway (raised the bag 1/2 way out of the water, took up to 170 deg F, shut off flame and dropped bag back in, covered, for another 10 min. Another mistake I made was forgetting to add the Yeast Nutrient.

3) Vienna - Did Vienna second. 90 min mash but only did a 60 min boil. My mistake. Hope it doesn't hurt anything. But water wound up about where it was supposed to be, maybe a tad (up to 1/2 gal) too high...

With both lagers, I pitched the yeast starter after putting the fermentation vessel in the water tub. Temp of wort was 54-55 deg F. Next morning water in the tub was 53 deg F and I headed out for 3 day vacation with family... Got back and fermentation seemed to be going with both, but temperature in the water tubs were down to 45 deg F. Yikes!!! Used some rope lighting (as a heater) under tubs to get water temp up in the 50-51 deg range today (took 24 hours). Hope this doesn't cause a problem (the temperature dropping that low for 2-3 days). It's been almost 6 days now, and fermentation seems to be slacking off quite a bit... Figured I would give it a few more days...and do a diacetal rest to try and finish up fermenting anything that hasn't fermented.

If anyone has any advice, would love to hear it. Especially on the BIABacus... Seems like it should be an outstanding tool. You guys have some great advice on this website. Thanks in advance for the help!

Scott
German Pilsner 122614.xls
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Last edited by Scott on 03 Jan 2015, 12:42, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #2 made 11 years ago
by Scott
Here is the BIABacus on the Vienna Lager.
Vienna Lager 122314.xls
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Last edited by Scott on 03 Jan 2015, 12:45, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #3 made 11 years ago
by PistolPatch
Hi Scott and congratulations for getting these first two under your belt :thumbs:. Also nice job on filling out the BIABacus :salute:,

Firstly, no problems on that fermentation temp dropping t 45F (7.2 C). Cold is no problem as long as it doesn't stall things. Also no problems on the yeast nutrient. In fact. all grain brews don't really need it as the trub etc contains enough nutrient for the yeast. Extract brews are the ones which really need the nutrient. Also great that you mashed for 90 minutes. THat is best practice as many base malts will require this length of time. A mash-out will only help you so there is never a problem doing it. A ninety minute boil is also best practice but it is unlikely that you will notice any problems with that 60 minute boil especially give your high evaporation rate. Finally, no, never boil with the lid on.

BIABacus Questions

I'm going to work off the Pilsner recipe as I have Brewing Classic Styles. The only correction you need to change the 22.72 in Section D to 21.82 L as the 6 gal in the book is a "hot" volume as far as we can tell - see here.

Evaporation is affected by many things and is rarely the same from one brew day to another especially if you brew outdoors. One big factor that affects your evaporation is the diameter of your kettle and the BIABacus uses that to give you a ball-park figure to get you brewing. If, after several brews, you find the BIABacus is under-estimating your evaporation then over-ride the default using Section X. Before doing so, double-check that you are not making any obvious measurement errors as it is rare for the auto-estimates on evaporation to be wildly out.

As for the weight of grain needed for the brews, this is a bit tricky to understand so don't be worried if you can't follow it...

The first thing to look at is the VAW in Section K. See how yours is 24.29 L? The books is 21.82 L. So, for a start, you are not brewing the same amount of wort as the book. (The BIABacus is allowing you 0.92 gallons of 'Kettle to Fermentor Loss' while the book only allows 0.5 gal). Why though, if you are brewing more wort, is the BIABacus saying you need less grain???

The answer here is that the book works off lower efficiency figures than the BIABacus (70.0% fermentor efficiency which translates, as far as we can tell from the info given, to about 73.4% kettle efficiency). Look at Section P though and you will see that the BIABacus has worked out that you are likely to get about 85.4% kettle efficiency or 73.2% fermentor efficiency. Unfortunately, the book's lack of clarity on what are hot and what are cold volumes makes this section a bit messy as there are several ways to interpret things. One thing is for sure though, the BIABacus allows a much more realistic KFL than the book and a much more realistic kettle efficiency. At the end of the day though the BIABaci's 'fermentor efficiency' is slightly higher than the book (73.2 versus 70.0) and so, you will find that if you do set up a VIF of 5.5 gallons in Section B, you will need a little less grain than in the book. If you are really into the maths...

70 / 73.2 * 4901 (grams in BCS) = 4687 grams. The BIABacus says 4607. The slight difference will be due to slightly different extract potentials used by Promash and the BIABacus.

You Don't Need to Worry About the Above Though :party:

I've only written the above as a 'proof' that things actually do match when you compare apples with apples. However, you don't need to worry about the above. Instead, for BCS recipes, set the VAW on the first line of Section D to 21.82 L and do everything else as you have done. Secondly, focus on taking some actual measurements so as you can fill in Sections L. M. N and O. This will let you know if you have any major worries going on. You will need to take at least several sets of volume and gravity measurements over several brews before you can begin to draw conclusions on anything though.

If you were forced into a corner and could only take on gravity sample and two volume readings, then take GAW, VIF and KFL (see Clear Brewing Terminology for definitions.)

Hope the above eases your mind on a few things at least Scott.

:peace:
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 03 Jan 2015, 17:36, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #4 made 11 years ago
by Scott
Thanks for the help PP! Great info. I've read through it a couple times and will a couple more... It definitely helps with my understanding!!!

The weather was pretty cold, just above freezing and I was brewing out on my patio. Lots of steam!!! Pretty hard to read the gallon levels in my new boil pot. I was able to - with the pilsner recipe - turn off the burner and wait a minute or two, and got a volume into boil (VIB) of 8.4 gallons (appx), so by my count was almost right on at that point...and forgot to mention that detail in my post. It was in my hand written notes.

The wheels kind of fell off with the Vienna and especially with VIF of the Pilsner coming up short, I did not take this measurement with the Vienna.
Last edited by Scott on 09 Jan 2015, 13:45, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #5 made 11 years ago
by goulaigan
I find the easiest way to measure volume in the kettle, either when filling, mashing or boiling, is to measure headspace. The BIABacus has a little calculator (Section V) that will translate headspace into volume, which is much more accurate than trying to guesstimate where the wort level is, especially when between markings in the kettle...
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Post #6 made 10 years ago
by Scott
Well, I finally finished off my California Common (my last made from extract)...and had been concerned that if I broke into these two new BIAB beers (German Pils and Vienna) that I would never go back to the California Common. Broke into both of these tonight. Czech Pilsner still lagering. Don't want to get into it until German Pils all gone (well may do a side-by-side comparison).

My take: German Pils is really dry. Pretty good but not outstanding. Vienna - good. Toasty flavor, not sure which ingredient does this. Pretty dry too. Not as dry as Pils but pretty dry. My FG was 1.017 on that. Neither is bad; if I had at brewery they would be pretty good, but neither is outstanding.

Was planning to check temp gauge on my broil kettle. Think I may want to get a new hydrometer and make sure this is accurate. Or maybe just check it with water and make sure reading is 0.000. If I have to get new hydrometer and anyone has an awesome suggestion let me know. And if I need a new brew kettle thermometer - Blichmann was my plan...supposed to be good, unless other high quality for less was available.

I want my beer to be OUTSTANDING. :champ: ;) Check these things and keep making beer. It's what I can do... Sooner or later favorites will be figured out.
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Post #7 made 10 years ago
by Scott
Okay... I checked the hydrometer. Exactly on.

Wanted to check brew kettle thermometer. Checked against two other thermometers. Very close... Old one was off by a few degrees at 100 deg F but closer at boiling. Checked every 15-20 deg F through boiling. New one I bought today is almost identical to brew kettle thermometer.

Liking my brew better. Had the Vienna last night, German Pils today. Pils needs more carb. Easy adjustment. May need to get 2nd regulator and mount the pressure regulator outside the fridge. May need to add 5th Corney keg along with 4th faucet. Never know what's going to hit the spot... Not always the same, day to day... And got to have room for those beers lagering...

Definitely this exercise shows me BIAB makes fine brews. :smoke:
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Post #8 made 10 years ago
by jhough
Scott, I use both Old Republic Brewing and The Beverage People when looking at what grains do what for brewing. Also use Homebrewstuff for my hop profiles. Probably was the Carafa that gave the toasty flavor. Please , under NO circumstances put the lid on during your boil ! While it could possibly give more yield.......You will do more damage to your beer from the tannins that will fall back into your wort. The tannins are released during your boil and if the lid is on the pot then they will fall back into the pot with the condensation..
Good on ya for getting the second thermometer. One is never enough as with the hydrometer.
Joe
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Post #9 made 10 years ago
by Scott
Thanks jhough.

Couldn't find what you were referring to on The Beverage People but found some info linked from Old Republic webpress / blog page. A link would be extra helpful...to quickly find what you were referring to.

I followed others' recipes. Wasn't me guessing. But a guide is helpful, so I know what is doing what. And have not left the lid on...was thankfully warned away by others. Thanks though.

Clearwater, FL... Beautiful place, if my daughter is to be believed. She insisted on leaving home in Oregon to go to college in sunny Florida. Started south of Orlando playing college volleyball but after season and term was over followed her new Floridian best friend up to Tallahassee to go to college. Says she wants to end up further south, like Tampa. Anyway, saw the Clearwater on your name and your city has came up in conversation... :-)
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Post #10 made 10 years ago
by PistolPatch
Scotty, be very careful of relying on brew kettle thermometers. Two things... Some need to be calibrated regularly. Secondly, it IS MOST IMPORTANT that you agitate/stir the mash before relying on a temperature reading. The difference in temperature in an undisturbed mash between the top and bottom layers can be tremendous.

Also a thermometer that reads true at freezing and boiling point may not necessarily read true at mash temps. See here.

:peace:
Last edited by PistolPatch on 30 Mar 2015, 18:49, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #11 made 10 years ago
by Scott
Hi PP,

I compared brew pot temp vs a larger "candy" making thermometer my wife had, vs a new smaller candy making thermometer that I bought new yesterday. Incidentally during the testing process I dropped the small one in the pot - which only had water in it. Tried to blow out the tube, red cap pops off and open inside, and compressed air took off the tape with the numbers - or started to. Oops! Very hard to use these smaller thermometers in the Brewpot as the temperature went up towards boiling.

Brewpot Temp --- Big Candy Temp --- Small Candy Temp (deg in F)
115 --- 119 --- 115
128 --- 132 --- 128
142 --- 146 --- 142
164 --- 165 --- 165
178 --- 180 --- 178
193 --- 194 --- 193
208 --- 208 --- 208

I made assumption that newer thermometers may be more accurate (small candy thermometer purchased yesterday, or Brewpot from Christmas...but I had been concerned on that one).

I've been gone working a bunch the past month. Definitely felt like drinking beer when conducting this experiment. So had a couple glasses of my Pils during this time... Pretty difficult to see the gauge on the small candy thermometer in particular. Did the best I could.

My thought was if two of the thermometers agreed, then they were probably "right". Maybe this assumption is wrong. (???) Also, think I was getting my 2nd beer between 142 and 164 on the Brewpot and should have got a reading between those points - better mash temp. Temp went up pretty quick. Double Oops!

I read your post you linked above PP. Didn't open the Excel file. Looked like wide variations. Looks like you were fighting this same question.

So what would you recommend I do? Best would be to have an easy to use and read thermometer that was exactly accurate. But I don't know what that is and don't have anything real fancy...and if another thermometer is more accurate I don't have it or know what it is at this point. At end of my experiment I assumed small thermometer and brew kettle thermometers were accurate and large one that is a year or two old wasn't, but this could be wrong. Only way to get better from here is have something I know 100% for sure is accurate through the entire range. Suggestions...?
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Post #12 made 10 years ago
by Scott
PP - Good additional thought about making sure to agitate the mash before taking temperature reading... Have stirred. Not sure if I did that before taking temps or not. I will try to from here on...

When doing experiment (above) I tried to hold the thermometers to a similar point near the fixed brew kettle thermometer.
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Post #13 made 10 years ago
by Mad_Scientist
A brew kettle mounted thermometer measures outside the bag. It is best the measure the grain temps too.

When direct firing the burner, always heat slowly and stir, while monitoring both thermometers.

I have a 12 inch lab thermometer hanging and submerged in the grain at all times.

Image
6/28/2013 by Mad Scientist Brewhaus, on Flickr

MS
Last edited by Mad_Scientist on 31 Mar 2015, 01:58, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #14 made 10 years ago
by Scott
Thanks Mad Scientist... That sounds (and looks) pretty cool... Don't recall anyone else doing that (or it shown on pictures)...but others did talk about checking temps with another thermometer. When mashing, the whole thing is covered... You are just double checking I think. Would be nice to have a wire and digital readout on LCD screen. Hard to read things inside pot with steam, etc.

Could you do me a favor and pull one up on Amazon.com (or???) and give me a link? Something you would be comfortable using??? Or maybe this is pathetically easy. :dunno:

And then, would my grain temp be lower than temp from brew kettle thermometer??? I didn't think about this, but suppose your answer is "yes".

ADDED......

How does this look?
http://www.amazon.com/Waterproof-Thermo ... ing+liquid

I could see sticking this down in the mash, pushing the hold button, pulling it out and reading the temperature. Perhaps less work than hanging it off my pulley...
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Post #15 made 10 years ago
by Mad_Scientist
Scott wrote:Okay Mad Scientist... That sounds (and looks) pretty cool... Don't recall anyone else doing that (or it shown on pictures). When mashing, the whole thing is covered... You are just double checking I think.

Could you do me a favor and pull one up on Amazon.com (or???) and give me a link? Something you would be comfortable using???

And then, would my grain temp be lower than temp from brew kettle thermometer??? I didn't think about this, but suppose your answer is "yes".
This is what I use;
http://www.morebeer.com/products/thermo" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... hield.html
http://www.morebeer.com/products/12-inc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... meter.html

I don't cover except about 3 months out of the year, just direct fire the burner (low heat) 2-3 times during the 90 mins. mash to bring it back up to mash temp upper limit.

If you have a valve on your kettle, we do the "BobBrews Method" for stabilizing the temps; http://www.stempski.com/biab.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
That is, draw out several quarts/liters via the valve and pour over the top.

Bobs video is here; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rh04dELHB5U" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The grain temp in the bag is generally lower than the temp outside the bag (kettle thermometer probe). It will stabilize somewhat.

MS
Last edited by Mad_Scientist on 31 Mar 2015, 05:05, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #16 made 10 years ago
by Scott
Thanks Mad Scientist...

Going to have to wrap my mind around this a little bit before pulling the trigger on a direction. Think I saw this several months back or last summer. I will watch his video again later. Definitely not how I mashed in the, now 3 BIABs I've done. Sounds like I was likely under temperature for each mash. Drats! Well better to now know and fix it moving forward.

Thanks again for helping me out...

ONE MORE QUESTION...
When mashing, if it says mash at 153 deg F, do you go like 155, then when it gets to 151 take it back up? Figure it has to be something like that...and that has been how I've done it. +\- 2-3 degrees from where supposed to mash. Wanted to see if I'm right or not.
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Post #18 made 10 years ago
by mally
Scott wrote:ONE MORE QUESTION...
When mashing, if it says mash at 153 deg F, do you go like 155, then when it gets to 151 take it back up? Figure it has to be something like that...and that has been how I've done it. +\- 2-3 degrees from where supposed to mash. Wanted to see if I'm right or not.
If you are using the BIABacus (recommended) it will tell you your "strike temperature" in section E. It will auto-calculate depending on your recipe, volumes, etc. and this will differ with different brews.
If you just want to know how low to let the mash go before firing, then I think that is a personal choice. I have never fired up during the mash and am happy to with a few degrees C loss.
Last edited by mally on 31 Mar 2015, 15:23, edited 1 time in total.
G B
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Post #19 made 10 years ago
by PistolPatch
Sorry Scott have to be super-quick here....

You are onto the thermometers so all is good there. A cheap thermometer can be just as good as an expensive one in many cases.

As for correcting the mash temperature, you definitely should agitate the mash, check it's temperature and adjust for at least five brews. After that, you can slacken off as you will know how your system works. You might end up like mally and many others and just be able to do nothing during the mash. On my system, I still check and, depending on weather conditions, have to apply heat a few times during the mash. Many things come into play here (insulation, kettle shape. ambient conditions etc) so make sure you know your system before slackening off ;).

The BIABacus recommended strike temp also allows an adjustment for what temperature your strike water temperature should be.

Ask mally to explain the purpose of that adjustment at as I think he is being too lazy now :lol: :lol: :lol: .
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Post #20 made 10 years ago
by Scott
Does anyone have a link to understanding Section E, where it says "If grain is" whatever temperature "then strike at" whatever strike temperature? Apparently a calculation. Tried to search and didn't find it. Got to be something simple that would explain how to use this. Thanks.
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Post #21 made 10 years ago
by tingtong
Hi
not sure if I'm right in saying or got your meaning right but if you fill in your mash time, mash temp and grain temp it will automatically give you the temperature of the strike water needed.
And to quote a certain Mr Palmer "generally the initial "strike water" temperature is 10-15·°F above the target mash temperature"
TT

[MODNOTE: 10-15 is correct for traditional brews but on full volume brews, only a few degrees is needed. Just like two ice blocks hardly affects the temperature of a full glass of water it will affect a quarter glass-ful.]

Oppps Sorry
Last edited by tingtong on 01 Apr 2015, 13:23, edited 2 times in total.
[center]i ting tong![/center]
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Post #22 made 10 years ago
by mally
Scott - Tingtong has got it covered. In fact you don't even need to fill in mash length, just temps of mash & grain to get strike.
PistolPatch wrote:You might end up like mally and many others and just be able to do nothing during the mash
I wouldn't go as far as that, I mix up the mash every 20 minutes or so with a potato masher. Doing so either reduces the temp slightly (via removing an insulated lid), or it is due to equilibrating any stratification in there (or both) :dunno:
However, it is that drop in temp that doesn't worry me too much. Not that I am promoting it, but others have good results from overnight mashing where the temps drop into the 40C range.
PistolPatch wrote:Ask mally to explain the purpose of that adjustment at as I think he is being too lazy now :lol: :lol: :lol: .
What PP is referring to here is something you may see in your next few brews. That is if the BIABacus tells you your mash will be at "X" temp with "Y" strike, but you are finding you are not reaching it (either high or low). There is an adjustment factor that you will have to "play" with so that it matches your system. See section X of the BIABacus 3rd line down. In essence, thick walled vessels & gas burners will give the kettle more latent heat than thin walled vessels & electric.

PP is right though, I am being lazy! :smoke: :lol: :lol:
Last edited by mally on 01 Apr 2015, 15:26, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #23 made 10 years ago
by Scott
Okay, thanks.

It doesn't quite answer my question and think there is something small I'm not understanding... When it says "If grain is" X - how do I get that number? Is this a temperature you measure, somehow? It isn't part of recipe, I don't believe...although it appears it is part of recipe. There's some small element here I'm just not understanding...

Aren't the mash and grain at the same temperature...? :idiot: Apparently not. How do I get the Grain temperature?
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Post #24 made 10 years ago
by goulaigan
Scott, its the temp of the grain before you add it... So if your grain is sitting in a room that is say 20c, chances are the grain will be 20c, if its in the freezer, maybe check it with a thermometer somehow? My grain is usually room temp by the time I'm done milling so I generally just put the room temp in there...
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Post #25 made 10 years ago
by Scott
Got it! Thanks!!! I was just going to ask this exact question... "Ambient" temperature (if bag is outside on patio with me where I brew). Seemed like this was the only thing it could be.

Every time I look (or consider) the BIABacus, it's like an onion. Every time I peel off a layer, there is another layer inside that I had not noticed before. Pretty awesome details... Even if, as PP says our beer will never be consistent, seems like the more control you use the more consistent it should become...

And thank you - everyone - that has spent time helping a BIAB newbie get better at understanding all of these details!!!
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