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My Second BIAB- Altbier

Post #1 made 11 years ago
by Johnny Mac
Hi Guys,

The brew bug has struck! This past weekend I brewed my second BIAB batch, that makes two in three weeks. I can really see myself getting into a routine of brewing every other week. I have been and will continue to do small batches of 2 gallons so that I can get in a lot of brews to gain experience without filling my basement with beer bottles.

I made the recipe myself, with strong inspiration from the Kaiser Alt recipe on another site. Attached is the BIABacus.

The brew went well! Every 15 minutes of the mash, I checked the temperature (on a calibrated thermometer) and stirred the grains. I kept the kettle in the oven and it kept my mash at 152F throughout the 90 minutes. I would HIGHLY recommend using the oven if your kettle will fit, it makes it soo easy. I had trouble with this on my first brew, where the temp got low and I didn't stir. Also, just based on kettle size, I mashed with 3 gallons and rinsed the grain with 170F water to get to the full volume. There was no mashout.

As in my previous brew I placed the hop pellets in tea infuser bags. I'm starting to think it isn't the greatest idea. The pellets once swelled, nearly burst the bags and with them clumped together like that I'm guessing really lowered the utilization- time will tell. Next time I think I will let the pellets surf.

Post boil I checked my gravity on my refractometer. For relatively little money it's a great piece of equipment, no fuss quick readings (in Brix) without wasting wort and no temperature adjustments (there is an adjustment needed post fermentation). Anyway, my original gravity came out to 1042 instead of the designed 1050. According to an online efficiency calculator that's an efficiency of 60-65%.

Is there anything I should do to get higher efficiency or should I be happy with that? Something more like 70-75% sounds better to me. I crush using a corona grinder. It, on average, grinds the grain into thirds- with some dust and some whole grains getting by unground. That's my best guess as to the root cause. I also did not mash out, my second root cause guess. Any incite would be greatly appreciated.

I'm already planning my next brew- leaning towards a Zombie Dust clone. My local homebrew supply had a killer citra pale ale that has me inspired.
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Post #2 made 11 years ago
by Rick
What does your water look like (read: mash pH)?

I also use a corona mill, breaks up about the same as you mention. I would get around 85% kettle efficiency for a brew of this gravity. The BIABacus has an efficiency calculator, and it even predicted you would get about 83%. Filling out section M. will reveal your actuals, no need for an online calculator.

Your file also is set up for a full volume mash, but you say that you rinsed/sparged? If so, your file is not filled out correctly, and this could also be why your efficiencies were so poor. There is also something screwy happening in section X, can you explain those kettle shape volume adjustments?

You talking about Keystone's Citra Pale? If so, I had it at the Fegley's homebrew competition, was pretty good ... they had it hooked up to a hop rocket. Their table was right next to mine, so I kept sneaking in for samples.
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Post #3 made 11 years ago
by Johnny Mac
As far as full volume mash, it was a last second decision- literally me pouring water one liter at a time and nervously glancing over at my large bowl of crushed grain. Next time I think I can squeeze that .8 gallons into my 5 gal kettle.

Yeah, it was Keystone's Citra PA. I loved the hop aroma with, in my opinion, nicely balanced hop/maltibess.
Last edited by Johnny Mac on 21 Jan 2015, 18:37, edited 1 time in total.

Post #4 made 11 years ago
by thylacine
Johnny Mac wrote:As far as full volume mash, it was a last second decision- literally me pouring water one liter at a time and nervously glancing over at my large bowl of crushed grain. Next time I think I can squeeze that .8 gallons into my 5 gal kettle.

Yeah, it was Keystone's Citra PA. I loved the hop aroma with, in my opinion, nicely balanced hop/maltibess.

If room in your kettle for mashing your total grain bill is a concern, perhaps you may be interested in reading about brewers who only mash a recipe's BASE grains, not specialty grains. GOOGLE is your friend! ;-)
Last edited by thylacine on 21 Jan 2015, 12:44, edited 1 time in total.

Post #5 made 11 years ago
by Johnny Mac
As for water profile our water is in the "very hard" range at 11 or 12 grains per gallon. I tested it last month. We use a water softener to soften our water but according to my research softened water is not good for brewing.

Post #6 made 11 years ago
by mally
Hardness is less of a concern. It is the alkalinity that you need a better handle on (and these are separate entities).

There are a lot of breweries that try and emulate the water profile of Burton-on-trent (Burtonisation).
The water from Burton is very "hard", but the alkalinity is suitable for brewing.

Water is a really tough subject, and I don't profess to understand it myself even after reading about it for years. :shock:

I would agree that softened water is usually problematic for brewing. I have read they swap ions for sodium, which could lead to overly "salty" beers.
G B
I spent lots of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I squandered
I've stopped drinking, but only when I'm asleep
I ONCE gave up women and alcohol - it was the worst 20 minutes of my life
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Post #8 made 11 years ago
by Rick
You talking about Funk? I was in there asking questions when they were giving tours, seemed to be pretty relaxed and willing to give info. I'll bet they have an RO system, and build from that.
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Post #9 made 11 years ago
by Johnny Mac
Yeah, Funk. Is building from RO the 'standard practice' among microbreweries?

Some kind fellow brewer posted this water test from my town. Apparently we have three wells, so there's the possibility that my water is different. Considering the small geographic difference I can only imagine it's very similar.

pH 7.9
Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) Est, ppm 250
Electrical Conductivity, mmho/cm 0.42
Cations / Anions, me/L 4.3 / 4.3
ppm
Sodium, Na 18
Potassium, K 3
Calcium, Ca 35
Magnesium, Mg 20
Total Hardness, CaCO3 171
Nitrate, NO3-N 2.4 (SAFE)
Sulfate, SO4-S 6
Chloride, Cl 35
Carbonate, CO3 < 1
Bicarbonate, HCO3 172
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 141

Seems good enough to me that I just keep on rockin with the tap water. What do you say?

Post #10 made 11 years ago
by Rick
It's one standard practice yeah, but using tap water is also pretty standard.

Not knowing what is in your water could very well be why your extraction efficiency was low. I recommend at least cutting your tap water with RO water to see if it will improve on your next batch. I generally get my RO water from Landis in Telford, but I think the Weis on Chestnut might have it ... or maybe it was the one on Cedar Crest. Or Trexlertown? It's been quite a while since I got water from up there, so I forget. One of the Weis' near you definitely has it, though.

The reason I mention Funk possibly having an RO system, is that my GF lives in Emmaus (near the theater) ... and the water tastes pretty bad to me. I wouldn't brew with it, personally. Maybe one of the three wells is crappy, and we just happen to get bad water!

We also have another friend on the other side of Chestnut, on Ridge .. water tastes identical. Blerch!
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Post #12 made 11 years ago
by Johnny Mac
Update: Bottled 1/24/2015

Fermentation was slow to start, around 36 hours and then remained slow for another 24 hours. Then there was 24 hours of strong activity that died down to nothing at 6 days in. The FG was 1.008 at day 7 so I bottled it.

As of now it tasted great! It has a strong malt backbone with a little bit of bitterness to balance it (I meant to have a bit more but I think I had low utilization from bagging the hops too tightly) with a caramel finish. I can't wait for it to condition. I will definitely be brewing this again!

Post #13 made 11 years ago
by PistolPatch
Johnny Mac wrote:Post boil I checked my gravity on my refractometer. For relatively little money it's a great piece of equipment, no fuss quick readings (in Brix) without wasting wort and no temperature adjustments (there is an adjustment needed post fermentation). Anyway, my original gravity came out to 1042 instead of the designed 1050. According to an online efficiency calculator that's an efficiency of 60-65%.
Johnny Mac wrote:I'll look into ro water from Weiss. 55-65% efficiency is a downer
I've done a few other posts today that are relevant here so I'll be as brief as possible.

Johnny, you'll have to read my other posts to realise I have no time atm but two things...

1. I love reading posts like yours immediately above. Feedback on brews, well-written like yours are the best in so many ways :salute:.

2. The above bit I have quoted needs to be addressed. I have only skimmed the thread quickly but am pretty sure that there is an 'education' problem here. Read my last few posts and I think that things will become clearer. (For example, from what I am reading no one has educated you on fermentor versus kettle efficiency yet.)

3. Several other education issues on this thread. My last few posts might help a little bit there.

:peace:
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 29 Jan 2015, 20:34, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #14 made 11 years ago
by Johnny Mac
As an update, this beer has been in the bottle going on 4 weeks.

As one sits in front of me here are some notes:

Visually the color is a medium brown,SRM around 28. It poured with small head that dissapted quickly leaving lacey froth on the glass. The nose is very light with a slight malt/grain smell. In terms of taste it is fairly well balanced with not too much maltiness or hop flavor. In all honesty the flavors are underwhelming and it just strikes me as "watery"

During bottling we experienced foaming for the first and only time. I checked for any air leaks and didn't find any and by the end of the run it disappeared. We've since bottled one other batch and didn't experience this. My only guess for why the beer is so "blah" is that the foaming caused oxidation, especially in a low hopped beer.

I'll post my dilemma separately in another thread. [MODNOTE: Have moved it to the post below as the information in this thread is critical to answering the question properly.]

I think the recipe is sound, so I'm going to repeat it in the near future and see what happens.
Last edited by Johnny Mac on 20 Feb 2015, 07:51, edited 1 time in total.

Low Flavor Beer

Post #15 made 11 years ago
by Johnny Mac
[See MODNOTE in prior post.] Ok, so I brewed an Altbier (recipe posted in the proper section). After 4 weeks in the bottle it just tastes watery/lacking flavor. I expected a big malt character and it just isn't there.

My brainstormed reasons:

1) Green beer- I think at 4 weeks this beer should be pretty good right?
2) Lower gravity- target OG was 1050, actual was 1042- the FG was 1.008
3) Oxidation- during bottling my assistant brewer and I experienced foaming while filling using a dip wand

The beer is easy drinking, but not really in a good way. Any insights?
Last edited by Johnny Mac on 20 Feb 2015, 08:04, edited 1 time in total.

Post #16 made 11 years ago
by PistolPatch
Johnny, I was just having a read back over this and nice to see another few good posts from you. I'm also sorry that you have slipped through the cracks a little here. My last post here wasn't that useful and, unfortunately, I am still short on 'quality' time but let me see if I can at least get this one brew of yours sorted....

Firstly, some recording discrepancies. Above you mention your OG was 1.042 but in the file you posted in your first post of this thread, it says 1.046 in Section O. I'm going to assume you meant 1.042. If you type that 1.042 beside GAW in Section M, you'll find your kettle and fermentor efficiencies displayed in Section P and they'll read 58.4% and 52.2%. Fermentor efficiency (52.2%) is irrelevant to flavour. Kettle efficiency is and yours is almost 25% below that predicted.

What this means is that we can't look for any answers on this brew. For all we know, you may have been sold an incorrect amount of malt. Unless you create a process on your brews where you have double-checks on all the inputs (e.g. malt, hops, water etc) and the outputs (volumes and gravities), there really isn't any valuable knowledge that can be gained from that brew.

Even with double-checks in place, many suppositions will be just guesses until more brews are done and measured well.

For example, in your case, the few numbers we have would indicate there is a brewing process or number recording problem. Until we ensure this is not happening on every brew, it is no good asking about flavour lacking. Basically we need more information. We need to know if all your brews are lacking flavour and the numbers from those brews. Until you, and then we, know this, everything is just a very poor and usually, misleading guess.

:peace:
PP

P.S. Before your next brew, make sure you study Clear Brewing Terminolgy and Brew Day Measurements.
Last edited by PistolPatch on 20 Feb 2015, 17:38, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #17 made 11 years ago
by Johnny Mac
Thanks PP.

As far as double checks: my grain and hops have been weighed out at home on a digital kitchen scale and my water has been measured out. Thank you for those links, I have reviewed them.

I have since brewed twice after this batch. In these two batches I decided to do the same grainbill but change the hop type/ hop schedule. The idea of this is so that I would be able to see how consistent I am with the mash. I've made one change to my process and that has been the grain crush. I also have been using maris otter, commonly known for having higher efficiencies. In both instances I observed higher than expected gravity into boil and in both instances the GIB were very close to each other- 1070 vs 1071. This is promising in terms of repeatability and efficiency.

The brews were not without mistakes: in the first one mash temp was a little too high in the beginning and in the second, when it came to dilution post boil, I accidentally diluted to (off the top of my head) 1.050 vs 1.058.

I've experienced the BIABacus calculated strike water temp being way low in all my brews and have had to experiment with higher strike temps- which is where I ran into the first issue I mentioned (combined with not allowing my thermometer enough time to measure).

I'm still learning and still making mistakes but I'm feeling more confident. I'm also encountering the double edged sword of increased knowledge. The more I experience, learn and research about brewing, the more stressed I become in doing everything correctly. That's when I try to remind myself that it's just beer.

Post #18 made 11 years ago
by PistolPatch
Johnny Mac wrote:I'm also encountering the double edged sword of increased knowledge. The more I experience, learn and research about brewing, the more stressed I become in doing everything correctly. That's when I try to remind myself that it's just beer.
That is an excellent quote Johnny :salute: :salute: :salute:.

Okay, as for double-checks, you need to weigh everything out twice using different instruments. For example, if you bought two kilos of grain from the shop, then you could use your kitchen scales as a double check. Or if you were confident in your kitchen scales, then you would weigh each grain individually and then do a double-check on the weight of the total grain bill. With water/volumes, you can use the BIABacus and take both a head-space and depth reading.

On GIB, remember to also consider the VIB. Volume and gravity at any time during the brew must always be considered in partnership. For example, if, on a brew, your actual gravity into boil matched the estimated gravity into boil but the volume was half of the estimated, then you would have a serious problem!!!

As for strike water temps, the BIABacus default is aimed at ensuring that you don't strike too hot. In other words, the default is best suited to heavy equipment in hot environments. Go to Section X of BIABacus PR 1.3T and play around with the 'Strike Water Temp. Adjustment Factor'. This post and a couple after have some more info on this.

Anyway, the main thing is to ensure that all your beers are not lacking in flavour. If they are, then we'd have to do some exploring of procedures and the recipe used.

Also on your next brew, maybe try a different recipe/style that requires you to use different malts and hops. You'd be surprised at how much variance there can be between a single hop or mal from one year to the next.

:peace:
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 22 Feb 2015, 20:00, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #19 made 11 years ago
by Johnny Mac
Thanks for the advice PP, especially the volume/ gravity into boil. Common sense, but good advice. One thing I've done to allow myself to quickly gauge volume is marking graduations in liter increments on my brewing paddle.

Today I'll be brewing the same grain bill for the 3rd time. This time I'm going to leave the gravity high and hop accordingly, with Galaxy, for an imperial IPA (target BU/GU of 1:1). It'll be a little outside the style guides, bridging the imperial amber and imperial IPA, but I'm OK with that.
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