In preparation of my first biab I've got a few questions and apologize in advance for the rambling.
equip I plan to use:
converted keg with a lid, ball valve with ss braid at the bottom (may use it for a mlt sometime), a cookie cooling rack at the bottom (in case the bag o grain hits the bottom), a bag made for hauling a dead carcass that should fit around the top of the kettle
First brew's grain bill:
simple, just 12lb munich and 1/2 lb chocolate malt, for you metric folk thats 5.4kg munich 3.3kg chocolate
questions:
If I hang the bag of grain around the edge of the kettle and put my full volume of water (approx 8gal) in I dont know if the grain will get deep enough into the water...big bags though it shoould get low enough but then won't I just have a small amount of grain swimming amongst a bunch of water? If so how do I get a good read on the temp of the mash? Do I want to stir it around to discourage the grain from clumping together or the opposite or a balance of the two?
Ok the baby I'm holding needs to eat will ask more when I can, thanks!
Post #2 made 15 years ago
Hey Nik, kudos to you for getting ready to brew while juggling a baby.
Mate, your bag needs to be big enough so that your kettle will fit inside it. This will ensure that when your grain is in your bag, inside your kettle, that you have as much room as possible for the grain and water to come into contact.
When I first started AG BIAB, I stirred the mash every 5 minutes. These days I give it a good stir after doughing in and then leave it until the end of the mash. As I only take a temp. reading at the start and end of the mash, this works for me.
Good luck with the brew and the baby
Mate, your bag needs to be big enough so that your kettle will fit inside it. This will ensure that when your grain is in your bag, inside your kettle, that you have as much room as possible for the grain and water to come into contact.
When I first started AG BIAB, I stirred the mash every 5 minutes. These days I give it a good stir after doughing in and then leave it until the end of the mash. As I only take a temp. reading at the start and end of the mash, this works for me.
Good luck with the brew and the baby
"It's beer Jim, but not as we know it."
Post #3 made 15 years ago
Give it a good stir at dough in and if you like stir it again every twenty minutes or so. That should do.
I would worry about the bag getting caught on the ss braid.
edit:spelling
I would worry about the bag getting caught on the ss braid.
edit:spelling
Cube:
fermenter: Sourdough Spelt Ale, Classic Lambic, Oud Brune, Barrel Aged Belgian Dubbel
Kegs: Bob's Black IPA, Blanc Blond, Soda...
to be brewed:
fermenter: Sourdough Spelt Ale, Classic Lambic, Oud Brune, Barrel Aged Belgian Dubbel
Kegs: Bob's Black IPA, Blanc Blond, Soda...
to be brewed:
Post #4 made 15 years ago
thanks for the advice and good call on the braid. I can remove that easily enough and should because I'll be using pellet hops and I can get quite liberal with those additionsshibolet wrote:Give it a good stir at dough in and if you like stir it again every twenty minutes or so. That should do.
I would worry about the bag getting caught on the ss braid.
edit:spelling
I only plan on about 3oz of hops in this one, though who knows maybe I'll throw in some more.As for the size of the bag the rule of thumb of being able to fit the whole kettle INSIDE the bag does put it into perspective. So step by step, heat up the water, put the grain in the bag and lower the bag into the kettle, the grain will sit at the bottom of the kettle and I'll have that baking rack in there to make sure it doesn't fully touch the bottom. I'll only have about half the keg full of water, do you just take measurements in several areas of the grain since I imagine it's moving arond at the bottom or after you stir it up does it typically stick together somewhat? I'm just picturing trying to take a temperature of a "grainbed" that consists of a bunch of grains floating around.
OH I also remembered another question about the crush. One thing I'm excited about with BIAB is being able to grind the grain up finer, but to my understanding there's still a limitation to this, is that correct? Can anybody post a pic of their grain crush to see how fine I can really make it?
I'm going to plug in my recipe numbers like I'm hitting my typical 65% and when I hit 75 or whatever doing BIAB I'll just have stronger beer
One issue with batch sparging a big beer is a lot of times you end up with so much more volume then you need to boil it down even more to condense. With BIAB since the grain is suspended and you're frequently agitating it wouldn't the sugars wash off better? Does this question make sense? If I have a 48qt cooler turned into an MLT (which I do now) and I want a high gravity beer I may have to batch sparge several times and end up with a huge amount of preboil wort to boil down. With BIAB it seems like you wouldn't need AS much water to get the same effect. At the same time since you're supposed to put your full brewday water volume in the kettle for BIAB.. any insight?
Last edited by Nikobrew on 12 Oct 2010, 22:53, edited 5 times in total.
Post #5 made 15 years ago
I can't give an educated response to your other questions, but I have some limited insight to this...
As for taking the temp...After doughing in, you should have a thin, fairly homogeneous grain/water mixture. I've never done a "traditional" mash, but I imagine a BIAB mash looks completely different. When I took temp readings, I just gave it a quick stir to even out any hot spots.
Hope this helps somewhat
You mention putting your bag with grains into the kettle. The Commentary and this podcast from James Spencer at basicbrewing.com give some information on the suggested way to dough in and why doing it your way may be slightly problematic. By sprinkling the grains from above the kettle, people rarely report dough balls and from my one BIAB session I didn't have any trouble.Nikobrew wrote:So step by step, heat up the water, put the grain in the bag and lower the bag into the kettle, the grain will sit at the bottom of the kettle and I'll have that baking rack in there to make sure it doesn't fully touch the bottom. I'll only have about half the keg full of water, do you just take measurements in several areas of the grain since I imagine it's moving arond at the bottom or after you stir it up does it typically stick together somewhat? I'm just picturing trying to take a temperature of a "grainbed" that consists of a bunch of grains floating around.
As for taking the temp...After doughing in, you should have a thin, fairly homogeneous grain/water mixture. I've never done a "traditional" mash, but I imagine a BIAB mash looks completely different. When I took temp readings, I just gave it a quick stir to even out any hot spots.
Hope this helps somewhat
Last edited by BrickBrewHaus on 12 Oct 2010, 23:45, edited 5 times in total.
Post #6 made 15 years ago
Niko,
as BBH wrote, don't lower the bag into the water with the grain in it.
heat the water, insert the bag, add the grain slowly while stirring to break up any dough balls.
i flout my probe thermometer in the mash and take a look at it every so often when i feel like giving all a good stir up.
I have never brewed a "traditional" All Grain brew but i usually get my LHBS to run my grain through the mill twice for good measure.
as BBH wrote, don't lower the bag into the water with the grain in it.
heat the water, insert the bag, add the grain slowly while stirring to break up any dough balls.
i flout my probe thermometer in the mash and take a look at it every so often when i feel like giving all a good stir up.
I have never brewed a "traditional" All Grain brew but i usually get my LHBS to run my grain through the mill twice for good measure.
Cube:
fermenter: Sourdough Spelt Ale, Classic Lambic, Oud Brune, Barrel Aged Belgian Dubbel
Kegs: Bob's Black IPA, Blanc Blond, Soda...
to be brewed:
fermenter: Sourdough Spelt Ale, Classic Lambic, Oud Brune, Barrel Aged Belgian Dubbel
Kegs: Bob's Black IPA, Blanc Blond, Soda...
to be brewed:
Post #7 made 15 years ago
Thanks for the tips on sprinkling the grain in. Could someone post a pic of their finest crush that they've done this with?shibolet wrote:Niko,
as BBH wrote, don't lower the bag into the water with the grain in it.
heat the water, insert the bag, add the grain slowly while stirring to break up any dough balls.
i flout my probe thermometer in the mash and take a look at it every so often when i feel like giving all a good stir up.
I have never brewed a "traditional" All Grain brew but i usually get my LHBS to run my grain through the mill twice for good measure.
Last edited by Nikobrew on 13 Oct 2010, 00:25, edited 5 times in total.
Post #8 made 15 years ago
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Last edited by shibolet on 13 Oct 2010, 00:28, edited 5 times in total.
Cube:
fermenter: Sourdough Spelt Ale, Classic Lambic, Oud Brune, Barrel Aged Belgian Dubbel
Kegs: Bob's Black IPA, Blanc Blond, Soda...
to be brewed:
fermenter: Sourdough Spelt Ale, Classic Lambic, Oud Brune, Barrel Aged Belgian Dubbel
Kegs: Bob's Black IPA, Blanc Blond, Soda...
to be brewed:
Post #9 made 15 years ago
Nice, I have a thermometer I can stick in a piece of cork and have float like that. Any pics of the actual crush though before it meets water?
Post #10 made 15 years ago
Sorry, can't help you with a picture, but as with Shibolet I double crush my grains.
I also have the bag inside the kettle while the water is heating and then pour the grain in once the desired temp has been achieved.
There is no reason I can think of why you couldn't put some cork on your thermometer and float it. I hang mine over the side of the kettle with a piece of wire. Whatever works for you.
I also have the bag inside the kettle while the water is heating and then pour the grain in once the desired temp has been achieved.
There is no reason I can think of why you couldn't put some cork on your thermometer and float it. I hang mine over the side of the kettle with a piece of wire. Whatever works for you.
"It's beer Jim, but not as we know it."
Post #11 made 15 years ago
Hi there Niko,
Sounds like you are a bit time poor with a baby on your hands. As BBH mentioned above, reading The Commentary will help you out a lot if you can find the time. There's also a video here which might help you picture the process fairly easily and quickly.
Re your questions on water volumes, efficiency etc, I would post your recipe and equipment details to this thread here. That way, we can let you know how much water etc you will need. This will make sure your first brew is well within the ball park. If you do this, I'll check the recipe over tonight and do the conversions etc.
As for your crush, for your first few brews, you can just use the same crush as you have been using for batch-sparging. A too finer crush can take a long time to drain. Play around with crush sizes later on - not on your first brews. Later you'll have time to see how much longer a fine crush takes to drain, weigh the spent grain and measure efficiency etc so as you can find a crush that best suits you.
Cheers mate,
PP
Sounds like you are a bit time poor with a baby on your hands
. As BBH mentioned above, reading The Commentary will help you out a lot if you can find the time. There's also a video here which might help you picture the process fairly easily and quickly.Re your questions on water volumes, efficiency etc, I would post your recipe and equipment details to this thread here. That way, we can let you know how much water etc you will need. This will make sure your first brew is well within the ball park. If you do this, I'll check the recipe over tonight and do the conversions etc.
As for your crush, for your first few brews, you can just use the same crush as you have been using for batch-sparging. A too finer crush can take a long time to drain. Play around with crush sizes later on - not on your first brews. Later you'll have time to see how much longer a fine crush takes to drain, weigh the spent grain and measure efficiency etc so as you can find a crush that best suits you.
Cheers mate,
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 13 Oct 2010, 06:58, edited 5 times in total.
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Post #12 made 15 years ago
Sweet, thanks. The goals for BIABPistolPatch wrote:Hi there Niko,
Sounds like you are a bit time poor with a baby on your hands
Re your questions on water volumes, efficiency etc, I would post your recipe and equipment details to this thread here. That way, we can let you know how much water etc you will need. This will make sure your first brew is well within the ball park. If you do this, I'll check the recipe over tonight and do the conversions etc.
As for your crush, for your first few brews, you can just use the same crush as you have been using for batch-sparging. A too finer crush can take a long time to drain. Play around with crush sizes later on - not on your first brews. Later you'll have time to see how much longer a fine crush takes to drain, weigh the spent grain and measure efficiency etc so as you can find a crush that best suits you.
Cheers mate,
PP
1) saving time
2) high efficiency (not as big of a deal)
3) less stuff to clean and equip in general (I already have all the equip for batch sparging, and it doesn't take me longer than a few minutes to clean my mlt)
4) saving time
Did I mention time?
Last edited by Nikobrew on 13 Oct 2010, 20:28, edited 5 times in total.
Post #13 made 15 years ago
Niko,
I guta say, if it's only time saving your after, i'm not sure BIAB will make such a big deference.
We have a local brew party here last May, 12 brews going at once. i was the only BIAB, and i was not the first to finish.
I guta say, if it's only time saving your after, i'm not sure BIAB will make such a big deference.
We have a local brew party here last May, 12 brews going at once. i was the only BIAB, and i was not the first to finish.
Cube:
fermenter: Sourdough Spelt Ale, Classic Lambic, Oud Brune, Barrel Aged Belgian Dubbel
Kegs: Bob's Black IPA, Blanc Blond, Soda...
to be brewed:
fermenter: Sourdough Spelt Ale, Classic Lambic, Oud Brune, Barrel Aged Belgian Dubbel
Kegs: Bob's Black IPA, Blanc Blond, Soda...
to be brewed:
Post #14 made 15 years ago
I think that MAY end up happening here as well, I figure it's worth one run. Since the last time I batch sparged I only did a 40 minute mash and still got my typical 65% efficiency, I did have to sparge a couple of times though so I think from the start of the mash to beer in the keg (did no chill in a cornie) was approx 4 hours. The low efficiency has irritated me so I'm getting a new mash tun put together made from a converted keg so if BIAB doesn't speed it up I should get better efficiency in future batch sparges with the new setup anyway and I won't be as concerned about mash thickness.shibolet wrote:Niko,
I guta say, if it's only time saving your after, i'm not sure BIAB will make such a big deference.
We have a local brew party here last May, 12 brews going at once. i was the only BIAB, and i was not the first to finish.
Is that why you need to mash for more time anyway with BIAB? Because of the mash being so thin?
Last edited by Nikobrew on 13 Oct 2010, 21:11, edited 5 times in total.
Post #15 made 15 years ago
Uh oh! Hold on!Nikobrew wrote: Is that why you need to mash for more time anyway with BIAB? Because of the mash being so thin?
Looks like we are quickly running into territory that can be quickly misinterpreted so I'm going to nail this one
.Firstly, you do not need to mash for longer with a full-volume mash (BIAB). There is a link somewhere on this site that shows this. That same link actually shows that a full-volume mash is more efficient. A 90 minute mash and a 90 minute boil are standard recommendations on this site as doing these helps avoid a lot of problems. I personally have mucked around with all sorts of variations and now have stabilised at this 90/90 formula. I could go less if I needed to.
A BIAB brew should certainly be a bit faster than a traditional batch-sparge and a lot faster than a fly-sparge given the same size burner. Shib not finishing first will have had more to do with his burner size and his choice of whether to do a mashout and hold it at mashout temps for X minutes. Traditional batch spargers will find it very hard to achieve mash out temperatures.
A BIAB brew, with no rest at mashout temps should be the fastest brew you can get. There should actually be no faster way, in reality, of all-grain brewing*.
How can there be?...
There is one way...
If you had a burner that was not very good, the time saved in heating say 35 L of water would delay you a lot as with traditional brewing you would only have to initially heat half this volume - the rest could be heated during the mash. An appropriate size burner/element makes this argument negligible.
Hope this makes sense
,PP
* I put an asterix above as there is one method of brewing that speeds things up. It has the very confusing name for us BIABrewers of, "no-sparge," brewing. "No-sparge" brewing is a rarely used specialty brewing method that both BIABrewers and traditional brewers can use. It has very poor efficiency levels and this is why it is rarely used. BIAB incorporates the traditional mash (soak) and traditional sparge (rinse) because it is full-volume mashing. "No-sparge," brewing has no "rinse" and therefore saves time but costs in efficiency. "No rinse," brewing can give some nice effects to some beers if you are willing to pay the price of very poor efficiency - say 80% into kettle versus 50%.
Last edited by PistolPatch on 13 Oct 2010, 21:59, edited 5 times in total.
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Post #16 made 15 years ago
Is there a reason for a 90 minute mash how short has someone gone with the same efficiency?
Post #17 made 15 years ago
Yep.
What you should do when you mash next is take wort samples at say 50, 60, 70, 80 and 90 minutes and check their gravity. Doing this on one brew will tell you very little but you will still hopefully see a decreasing exponential curve with the bend occurring mainly around the 60 minute mark if my memory serves me correctly.
You should ignore any posts on a brewing forum that say, "I just changed my mash time from 90 minutes to 60 minutes and still got the same efficiency." One brew tells little. Five brews tells a lot but there are very few brewers who will brew the same recipe 5 times one way and then another 5 times a different way.
It's very late here so I'm out for tonight and probably tomorrow as well. I have a spreadsheet somewhere on figures collected from several brewers. I'll see if I can dig it up. You are best though to check this stuff out for yourself. Measuring stuff for yourself makes you act on it. Reading stuff only goes so far
.
Cheers mate,
PP
What you should do when you mash next is take wort samples at say 50, 60, 70, 80 and 90 minutes and check their gravity. Doing this on one brew will tell you very little but you will still hopefully see a decreasing exponential curve with the bend occurring mainly around the 60 minute mark if my memory serves me correctly.
You should ignore any posts on a brewing forum that say, "I just changed my mash time from 90 minutes to 60 minutes and still got the same efficiency." One brew tells little. Five brews tells a lot but there are very few brewers who will brew the same recipe 5 times one way and then another 5 times a different way.
It's very late here so I'm out for tonight and probably tomorrow as well. I have a spreadsheet somewhere on figures collected from several brewers. I'll see if I can dig it up. You are best though to check this stuff out for yourself. Measuring stuff for yourself makes you act on it. Reading stuff only goes so far
.Cheers mate,
PP
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Post #18 made 15 years ago
PP, wouldn't a more accurate test be a iodine conversion test at 30, 40, 50, 60 and 90 minutes?
i mean, if i have full conversion at 40, why continue mashing?
i mean, if i have full conversion at 40, why continue mashing?
Cube:
fermenter: Sourdough Spelt Ale, Classic Lambic, Oud Brune, Barrel Aged Belgian Dubbel
Kegs: Bob's Black IPA, Blanc Blond, Soda...
to be brewed:
fermenter: Sourdough Spelt Ale, Classic Lambic, Oud Brune, Barrel Aged Belgian Dubbel
Kegs: Bob's Black IPA, Blanc Blond, Soda...
to be brewed:
Post #19 made 15 years ago
I was just going to use a refract. If I show the gravity I'm aiming for I'd just go a lil longer to see if it goes up, if not call it good.shibolet wrote:PP, wouldn't a more accurate test be a iodine conversion test at 30, 40, 50, 60 and 90 minutes?
i mean, if i have full conversion at 40, why continue mashing?
Last edited by Nikobrew on 14 Oct 2010, 03:30, edited 5 times in total.
Post #20 made 15 years ago
Hey shib and Niko, have a read of this post here and Trough Loly's great answer here.shibolet wrote:PP, wouldn't a more accurate test be a iodine conversion test at 30, 40, 50, 60 and 90 minutes?
i mean, if i have full conversion at 40, why continue mashing?
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 14 Oct 2010, 08:06, edited 5 times in total.
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Post #21 made 15 years ago
sorry, i still don't understand. what happens in the mash after full starch conversion?
Cube:
fermenter: Sourdough Spelt Ale, Classic Lambic, Oud Brune, Barrel Aged Belgian Dubbel
Kegs: Bob's Black IPA, Blanc Blond, Soda...
to be brewed:
fermenter: Sourdough Spelt Ale, Classic Lambic, Oud Brune, Barrel Aged Belgian Dubbel
Kegs: Bob's Black IPA, Blanc Blond, Soda...
to be brewed:
Post #22 made 15 years ago
Got my bags from cabelas today, woot woot! Going to wash some lager yeast, crack my grain to bits (is there something bad about making them flour? I didn't plan on turning them to powder just curious) and brew friday or monday morning.
Post #23 made 15 years ago
Nothing wrong with turning your grain to flour. It will just make them drain a lot slower and give you (perhaps) wort that is more cloudy.
"It's beer Jim, but not as we know it."
Post #24 made 15 years ago
If I use irish moss that cloudier wort shouldn't matter, right?hashie wrote:Nothing wrong with turning your grain to flour. It will just make them drain a lot slower and give you (perhaps) wort that is more cloudy.
Last edited by Nikobrew on 15 Oct 2010, 09:04, edited 5 times in total.
Post #25 made 15 years ago
I believe it wouldn't matter without Irish moss.
I used to use fining agents every brew, but gave them up after a while, I have found absolutely no difference in the final quality of my beers.
Others may argue otherwise, I can only speak for myself.
I used to use fining agents every brew, but gave them up after a while, I have found absolutely no difference in the final quality of my beers.
Others may argue otherwise, I can only speak for myself.
"It's beer Jim, but not as we know it."
