Now that I've started BIAB, obviously I'm keen to understand what efficiency to expect so as to formulate my recipes accordingly.
On today's brew, a Belgian Dubbel, I mashed:
2.5kg Bohemian Pilsner
150gm Medium Crystal
150gm Dark Crystal
into 16.6 litres of strike water. After my 75m mash @ 66.7, and a 10m mashout where I upped it to 75.6, I lifted the bag and put a fridge rack over the top of my kettle. Rested the bag on that, and used another fridge rack to squeeze down on the bag, hard, for a few minutes, moving and folding the bag a few times. Once I figured I'd gotten as much out of the grain as I could, I put the bag aside, and measured my volume and gravity (the latter using a refractometer with ATC).
The volume was almost spot on 15 litres, and the gravity 1.046. I've bounced around these numbers in a few calculators, and seem to be coming out with an efficiency of just over 80%. This sounds too good to be true, so I'm assuming it is...and figure I'm messing the calcs up somewhere. Can anyone help me work this out please?
Post #2 made 12 years ago
Edit: Forgot one thing below weiz... Your numbers on a single brew can never be trusted 
...
.
If you are really interested in getting your head around these type of brewing numbers, then you have stumbled upon the perfect site. The things you will learn here include the following...
1. An 80% 'efficiency' can be very low or very high depending on what 'efficiency' you are talking about.
2. Two types of efficiency are often talked about. One is useful and the other one is not. A lot of brewing software is based on the latter.
3. The two types of efficiency usually talked about can be narrowed down to 'kettle efficiency' or fermentor efficiency' although you will never hear these terms.
4. Most efficiency terms on other sites or in commercial brewing software are bastardisations. For example, 'mash efficiency' could mean at least two things. 'Brewhouse efficiency,' can mean more.
5. 'Kettle Efficiencies,' are the only useful base to work from in recipe calculations. Kettle efficiency is the prime/source/original/unalterable efficiency*. Any other efficiency is a distortion of this efficiency figure.
6. Commercial software conditions you into thinking that kettle and fermentor efficiencies are a constant. They are not. Kettle efficiencies are mainly affected by how much water the grain is exposed to and for how long.
7. Fermentor efficiencies are a distortion of kettle efficiencies. For example, if you were able to miraculously do a brew that had no kettle trub than your fermentor efficiency would be exactly the same as your kettle efficiency - you will have lost no sugars.
Ask what questions you have on this weiz. Hopefully some of the other guys will be able to expand on some of the points above. Efficiency is just one of several areas in the brewing world that are currently totally ridiculous and that this site is trying to make easy.
PP
* All efficiency figures rely on a volume reading and a gravity reading. Multiplying these two together basically tells you how much 'sugar' you have in your brew. During the boil, sugar does not get evaporated. In other words, during the boil, volume decreases but density increases - the kettle efficiency remains the same.
** Edit: Forgot your first sentence. The BIABacus formulates your efficiencies for you. It's the only software/program that can so take the time to learn it.
...Welcome aboard weizgeiweizgei wrote:I've bounced around these numbers in a few calculators, and seem to be coming out with an efficiency of just over 80%. This sounds too good to be true, so I'm assuming it is...
.If you are really interested in getting your head around these type of brewing numbers, then you have stumbled upon the perfect site. The things you will learn here include the following...
1. An 80% 'efficiency' can be very low or very high depending on what 'efficiency' you are talking about.
2. Two types of efficiency are often talked about. One is useful and the other one is not. A lot of brewing software is based on the latter.
3. The two types of efficiency usually talked about can be narrowed down to 'kettle efficiency' or fermentor efficiency' although you will never hear these terms.
4. Most efficiency terms on other sites or in commercial brewing software are bastardisations. For example, 'mash efficiency' could mean at least two things. 'Brewhouse efficiency,' can mean more.
5. 'Kettle Efficiencies,' are the only useful base to work from in recipe calculations. Kettle efficiency is the prime/source/original/unalterable efficiency*. Any other efficiency is a distortion of this efficiency figure.
6. Commercial software conditions you into thinking that kettle and fermentor efficiencies are a constant. They are not. Kettle efficiencies are mainly affected by how much water the grain is exposed to and for how long.
7. Fermentor efficiencies are a distortion of kettle efficiencies. For example, if you were able to miraculously do a brew that had no kettle trub than your fermentor efficiency would be exactly the same as your kettle efficiency - you will have lost no sugars.
Ask what questions you have on this weiz. Hopefully some of the other guys will be able to expand on some of the points above. Efficiency is just one of several areas in the brewing world that are currently totally ridiculous and that this site is trying to make easy.
PP
* All efficiency figures rely on a volume reading and a gravity reading. Multiplying these two together basically tells you how much 'sugar' you have in your brew. During the boil, sugar does not get evaporated. In other words, during the boil, volume decreases but density increases - the kettle efficiency remains the same.
** Edit: Forgot your first sentence. The BIABacus formulates your efficiencies for you. It's the only software/program that can so take the time to learn it.
Last edited by PistolPatch on 14 Aug 2013, 21:52, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #3 made 12 years ago
Thanks...I think? I kinda just wanted to know if I was correctly working out how much sugar I was extracting from my grain during the mash. But I think I've answered my own question there...
I can see plenty of references to this BIABacus, but where can I download it? It doesn't seem to be in the Master Guide. The Calculator is there, but from what I've read, the BIABacus is supposed to replace that?
I can see plenty of references to this BIABacus, but where can I download it? It doesn't seem to be in the Master Guide. The Calculator is there, but from what I've read, the BIABacus is supposed to replace that?
Post #4 made 12 years ago
I am not sure where the blank BIABacus is, but here is a link to PR1.3I here.
It is in a pre-release stage so is classed as developmental.
It is in a pre-release stage so is classed as developmental.
Last edited by mally on 15 Aug 2013, 15:10, edited 2 times in total.
G B
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I spent lots of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I squandered
I've stopped drinking, but only when I'm asleep
I ONCE gave up women and alcohol - it was the worst 20 minutes of my life
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Post #5 made 12 years ago
weizgei wrote:Thanks...I think?
.We can check this for you in a few minutes so I think the best thing is to let us do that. What you are chasing is your kettle efficiency. This is the same as your 'mash/lauter' efficiency and can go under many other good names (rarely used) because it can be measured at several points in the brew.weizgei wrote:I kinda just wanted to know if I was correctly working out how much sugar I was extracting from my grain during the mash.
What we need from you is...
1. A recipe report or the grain bill you used.
2. The volume and gravity you measured either pre or post-boil. If you measured post-boil, was the wort hot or had you cooled it? This makes a 4% difference or...
If you didn't take a pre or post-boil volume measurement, you will need to tell us your volume into fermentor and your kettle to fermentor losses (KFL or kettle trub). (If you only had one choice of measurements to take on a brew, these are the best btw). If you cannot provide a KFL figure, then we can only give you a 'fermentor' efficiency.
PP
BIABacus Downloads
Pre-release thread is here and it contains a completed and a blank BIABacus. The link Mally gave above is the latest version with the final terminologies. It is a bit messy atm and could be for some time as getting everything to be easy to find and easy to read is going to still take the site a few hundred hours. Some of this relies on several bouts of consecutive days of work by me and I'm not getting these lately so am probably holding the whole show up
. It's work I can't stop and start though.
Last edited by PistolPatch on 15 Aug 2013, 18:35, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #6 made 12 years ago
Cheers again for the reply. I'm a bit confused though...didn't I put all that information in my original post above?
There's more to the recipe obviously, but that's all I put into the mash. I added Belgian Candi Sugar and Munich LME at the end of the boil, but they're not relevant to my question.
I think that covers my grain bill, water into the kettle and pre-boil volume & gravity. If I need to be more specific, the Bo Pilsner was Bestmalz (German), and the crystal malts were Joe White.weizgei wrote: On today's brew, a Belgian Dubbel, I mashed:
2.5kg Bohemian Pilsner
150gm Medium Crystal
150gm Dark Crystal
into 16.6 litres of strike water. After my 75m mash @ 66.7, and a 10m mashout where I upped it to 75.6, I lifted the bag and put a fridge rack over the top of my kettle. Rested the bag on that, and used another fridge rack to squeeze down on the bag, hard, for a few minutes, moving and folding the bag a few times. Once I figured I'd gotten as much out of the grain as I could, I put the bag aside, and measured my volume and gravity (the latter using a refractometer with ATC).
The volume was almost spot on 15 litres, and the gravity 1.046. I've bounced around these numbers in a few calculators, and seem to be coming out with an efficiency of just over 80%. This sounds too good to be true, so I'm assuming it is...and figure I'm messing the calcs up somewhere. Can anyone help me work this out please?
There's more to the recipe obviously, but that's all I put into the mash. I added Belgian Candi Sugar and Munich LME at the end of the boil, but they're not relevant to my question.
Last edited by weizgei on 15 Aug 2013, 18:52, edited 2 times in total.
Post #7 made 12 years ago
Yes, you did Weiz. I'm sorry I missed that but I get involved in too many 'numbers' threads here and sometimes lose my place if that makes sense. Sometimes people don't reply for a few days (not you) and so I end up carrying a lot of thoughts around and sometimes get confused or just plain rushed.weizgei wrote:Cheers again for the reply. I'm a bit confused though...didn't I put all that information in my original post above?
Let's get you sorted...
You'll either get cranky with me or appreciate the below but before I give you an answer I have to really emphasise the following...
A single set of measurements on a single brew cannot be trusted.
For example, a wine-maker would wander through a field of grapes and take several samples of grape juice before making a decision on how fermentable his grapes were.A refractometer is an instrument that requires several readings to get a good average.
This forum is pretty unique. We have many posts/threads on how unreliable numbers can be, You won't find this on other forums. Don't be worried if your numbers turn out badly and don't be proud if they turn out well. We are working off very flimsy/unreliable numbers.
Let's see what we come up with anyway...
Okay, we have a gravity reading given by a refractometer that says 1.046. We also have a volume reading that wasn't at ambient temp and wasn't at boiling temp so I am assuming it is at mash temp. The BIABacus is the only software that includes mash temp volumes - phew - so I will work on the 15 litres being at mash temp.
This gives a kettle efficiency of 81.7% if we assume the grain you used was of average 'sugar' and moisture content.
Is this a good 'efficiency'? Without more info it is hard to tell but it is actually about 5% lower than what we would expect. Have to race but the best thing is to do another brew or two.
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 15 Aug 2013, 19:59, edited 2 times in total.
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