[/color]Sorry makka and homemade that I didn't get back to you yesterday. makka I might go through homemade's stuff first as he want s to brew tomorrow and I think your questions will be easier so I might be able to answer them drunk .

Ian, I will out my comments in dark green below.

Homemade wrote:Hi all Hi Ian. I've lost track a bit here so let us know if we miss anything.

I have had a look at the BIABacus file I was sent, thks very much for preparing that, and have adjusted it to take account of what I know or think I am aiming for.

I have tried to add information from the original recipe where I can.

I adjusted the pot height is that it reflected the 15.1L stamped on the bottom. Forget stamps on pots. Often stock pots are stamped with their practical volume rather than their actual volume.

I have adjusted the volume going into the fermenter to 21L which is what is in the original recipe.

I have adjusted the ingredients but notice that both the grain bill in C and Hops in D have been adjusted under "what you will use" I assume this is takes account of extra needed for the BIAB calculations? Usually a similiar amount of grain, if not less, is needed for a pure BIAB (full-volume mash). Your plan though, as I know you relaise now has taken the Maxi-BIAB adjustments to extremes. The fact that so little of your water is being used to wash the grain means your brew is very inefficient. I'm going to come back to this later.The hops in particular increases quite a lot it goes from 23g to 53g? This is because hop formulas work on there being less utilisation in high gravity brews. As you have so much top up water, the hop formula has been skewed.

Basically if you delete your water dilutions in Section W, you will see all the ingredients drop dramatically.

I have played around with the section W and note that if I intend to sparge with 8L and add 13L to the fermenter it all seems to work out for the mash and boil with my kettle except the liquor to grain ratio seems low at 1.5? Maybe I don't understand what this is? I think from the post you made after this post, you are now up to date on how Maxi-BIAB can be pushed too far. Unfortunately the BIABacus file you have used is missing one major warning which your scenario would have triggered.I'll give you a more up to date file below.

I have also put in 1L of water to add to the boil, I assume this is out of the total required in K? Yep. It is best to add waer as early as you can so you should be adding as much water before and during the boil as is possible and comfortable.

I have been advised a protein rest is best for this type of recipe due to the wheat, I tried to allow for this in the mash instructions 'E' but not sure I got that right. Perfect! (You've actually made me see a little design error there that we should try and improve .

General questions: Do I need to mash and boil for 90 mins each? Is 60 mins each not enough? Certainly mash for 90 minutes as you will not extract as much sugar from the grain if you stop at 60. The boil is less critical but a 90 minute boil has no real downside except for the extra time and heat energy. A 90 minute boil can also fix some problems that will occur in a 60 minute boil in certain situations.

Appreciate any input on this.

This Ian

Thinking, thinking, thinking...

Well, my brain has blown up already . An extreme Maxi-BIAB Partial . One other thing has thrown me out...

Mad_Scientist wrote:I counted about 337 gravity points total, so the good news it should make that 1.050 at the end. I could not figure a way to put this into the BIABacus, so I'm running my the seat of my pants here....

I did find a slightly convoluted way of putting this into the BIABacus Richard but found that there is an error in the DME formula I wrote in Section N. It's a hard formula and may take a while (or the right mood) to fix.

My brain blew up a bit more when I saw two different extract adjustments in Section Y and I couldn't find any easy, non-conflicting value of LME. My best guess is that it should end up in Section Y as reading 41.6 ppg. A 100 FGDB and 10% MC will yield this. The MC doesn't sound right though.

Anyway, I think Richard's plan is a lot better than I can offer today. It looks fine to me but I think he, you and I know that we aren't really approaching this in the best way. For a start, LME comes in a tin and you would want to use that entire tin or close to it in a brew, not 80 or 90% of it.

I really don't think I can be of any further help until I fix that DME error in Section N. What we are trying to do here in this brew is really stretching everything. I also can't recommend an alternative program that will handle this situation because there isn't one sorry.

Homemade wrote:But as the extract is un hopped I am not sure if I should add it for the boil duration? If I do this I am concerned about producing a high gravity wort that will affect the amount of bitterness I extract from the hops.

The only thing I can say here is that LME or DME does not necessarily need to be boiled as far as I am aware as it is already sterile. For example A kit brew (LME) can be put straight into cold water and pitched for example. I have never brewed 'hot' extract so I could be wrong here but I think the only reason extract brewers would do a boil is to get hop utilisation right. An extract brewer using hops though would most likely also be steeping grain and therefore has to boil.

Your main question/worry though is about creating a high gravity wort if you add the extract to the boil. You won't. It makes no difference when you add it. Your tin of extract only contains so much 'sugar'. This sugar does not evaporate so, at the end of the day, whether you add it early, late or even cold, it will make no difference to the gravity.

...

In trying to sort the above out, I ended up copying your recipe to PR1.3E which is not an official release. It has several terminology changes which may or may not be kept. It does however fix that warning. Unfortunately, the DME thing I mentioned is not fixed.

I hope makka's scenario is easier - lol
PP

Hi,

Thks for your reply PP and Richard,

Having read them and even more posts surrounding sparing and dilutions I think I have come to the conclusion my kettle just ain't big enough....my missus is happy with it but us guys always want something larger eh?

I was talking with my brewing partner last night over a two brew bottle session and we decided for future brews to purchase another 15L kettle ($15 at Kmart for a stainless stock pot) two of these will fit on my stove top and hopefully will just about solve our mash&boil capacity problems as we should be able to split the brew in half? I have a 40L keg waiting to have its top cut off but don't want to purchase a burner just yet. The extra stock pot is a cheap option for now.

I will get back on this thread and post our plan for comment early so I have time to get answers and purchase equip etc.

I started this plan having read the paper on converting all grain to partials as a way of doing something better on the stove than what we were doing but then I found this forum and the MaxiBIAB and thought I'd mix the two as the answer to all our limitations. Seems I was stretching that a tadge.

For this brew I thnk I will have to wing it! Given limitations on equipment, existing ingredients, time and current knowledge etc. etc. I think I will approach it this way for this brew only.

Mash with as much water as poss
Either sparge with 4L and top up boil as I can or just dilute boil with water as much as I can.
Add LME to boil, there is conflicting info here but I want to be sure it is infused with hop bitterness (sorry I am sure that's not the correct term)
Dilute into fermenter with pre-boiled & pre-cooled water.

While I have now read a sparge doesn't add as much efficiency as people think It doesn't appear to hurt it just adds hassle?

I know this is all wrong for a BIAB, now, but hey ho, my biggest mistake seems to have been not finding this forum earlier. Still there's always next time.



Thks for your help I will post back how it goes.

Homemade, PP got it right about not boiling the lme, it will caramelize and get too dark. Just dissolve it with warm water to get all the sugars out of the can and into the fermenter directly.

makka wrote:Thanks so much for the Black Sheep file, I will chuck it into open office later on tonight to see what is going on. I am sure I will have a few questions:)...

Sorry for the delayed reply makka. I knew you wouldn't mind and I'm bloody glad I had a crack at Ian's post above first . His scenario fried my brain and still didn't give him a great answer. But, it did reveal one little BIABacus bug which, when fixed, will make his scenario a lot easier to handle.

Anyway, onto your questions ...

makka wrote:Secion B. Your Equipment.
Not quite sure if (VIF) is final volume in fermentor after topping it up with cold water or before you top up.

Later in your post you said, "Does this answer my own question from before?" Yep, it does .

The reason why that warning pops up is because topping up your fermentor with water can be a planned event, a correction or both. For example, your kettle might be a bit small so you plan to top up your fermentor. You put that number into Section W. On brew day though, you might end up brewing on a dry windy day and find that your evaporation is way above what you planned. You end up with less volume at higher gravity so you need to make a correction. This is done in Section N.

Most existing brewing software has no solution to this or, if they do, it is a very clumsy one. Section N of the BIABacus, whilst only three lines, solves many problems. (Mind you, there is a formula error there which I only found today .) Suffice to say that once again, all this stuff always comes back to the building blocks/bricks of terminology. How do you clearly define the difference between water you plan to add to the fermentor versus correction water you add, on brew day, to the fermentor? A lot of 'little' things like this we have solved over the last few years. This one, we haven't and maybe never will .

makka wrote:...how do I get Volume in Package (VIP) to say 23L?

If we used a coded program or could afford more space in the current spreadsheet BIABacus, we would give you a choice of setting your recipe to a desired VIF (Volume into Fermentor) or VIP (Volume into Packaging). No existing software gives you that choice .

On this site, the original "The Calculator" used to work on VIP or what we called, "BrewLenght". In the current BIABacus, the basis is now VIF. There are many valid reasons for using either number. Most commercial software uses VIF and your fermentor is the most limiting size vessel a brewer has so there is a certain logic there.

What this all boils down to though is that for now, if you want to achieve a particular VIP in the BIABacus, you will have to play a game of twenty questions. In other words, you will have to keep changing VIF until VIP reads what you want.

This is one of the few 'twenty questions' scenarios that the BIABacus can't solve in spreadsheet form. All other programs have a lot more 20 questions problems though. They are a PITA and should not be necessary in a coded program.

makka wrote:Does Volume Of Ambient Wort (VAW) mean the volume given in the original recipe book i.e 23L

I wrote a fair bit on this last night in this post. You'll need to study the section titled, "Batch Size."

VAW* is the most critical volume number in a recipe but you won't find it in most recipe reports etc. And before you say, "It can't be so!", the answer is, "Yes, it is."

*VAW (Volume of Ambient Wort) is the same as your End of Boil Volume once cooled to ambient temperature. It is also the same as your Volume into Fermentor (VIF) plus your Kettle to Fermentor Loss (KFL). If you can't determine this number from a recipe, the recipe is useless. Nearly all recipes, well over 95%, published on the web have this error.

makka wrote:If I change water added to fermentor to say 9L instead of 0 it says I am out of bounds.

This is another thing that is different about the BIABacus. Existing software has several basic design errors that allow the user to type in any number they like and still get beer. The user won't get that though.

I have a lot more warnings planned for the BIABacus but the one you are getting is basically saying to you, "You are not exposing your crushed grain to enough water. You need to be washing that grain more. You can't just spit on the grain to release the sugars it holds."

Make sense?

Your File

Okay, I am working through from A to Z which is the way the BIABacus should be worked. First problem I see is the Warning in Section B - "Mash volume exceeds kettle size."

So, straight away, I know the current plan will not work.

There are a few discrepancies as well. The original file had an OG of 1.052 while yours has one of 1.046. I know your original black sheep recipe is different from the one we first worked with but why?

Anyway, that does not make a much of a difference to our Section B warning.

I think my brain has run out of steam now sorry makka. Don't ask too much from your kettle. Get rid of those warnings. Single vessel brewing is the way you really want to end up.


PP

[MODNOTE: The files PP has posted below have a problem. See Post #1333]

makka, back to you in a bit but a lot of the below applies to you as well )

Ian and Richard,

Firstly, sorry about my pretty useless post above to you Ian. It wouldn't have been of any help, just confused you more. I've fixed the DME error in Section N which enabled me to think more on this partial, maxi-BIAB problem though.

In your post above you mentioned that you have realised that your kettle is too small. That is the guts of it and it is the first thing we have to get established in our minds....

"How much can my kettle reasonably handle?"

Here is a file for how much of a 1.050 OG brew I think your kettle can reasonably handle without affecting the integrity of a recipe you copy and requiring only one vessel. Notice though I have assumed in Sections G and H that your trub management will be diligent.

[Note: In Section W, for 'Water Added During the Boil' you can always just type in whatever the evaporation figure is in Section K. For 'Water Added Before the Boil' you have to juggle this until no major warnings appear. In other words, 'Mash Volume' and 'Volume into Boil (VIB)' in Section K need to be reasonable.]

How Dilutions Cost You...

In the file above, if you delete the 4.00 and the 4.24 in Section W, the grain bill required drops from 3214 grams (7.08 lbs) to 2655 grams or 5.85 lbs. In other words, every dilution you use will cost you more in grain.

So, firstly, every dilution costs extra grain (and also, theoretically hops).

Dilutions during or after the boil can also affect the integrity of a recipe. I will write more on dilutions in a following post to makka.

Doing a Partial Maxi-BIAB

The BIABacus is not designed for this but then again no other program is either. If the BIABacus was coded, I could see a way of handling this but for now,it is very convoluted.

I won't explain the file below as it is convoluted. However it is just an adaptation of the file above. You need to look closely at Sections N and O. (I will write more on those sections in my post to makka). This still leaves one problem, the hop bill. I hope I am not going to ause your head to spin too much but here goes...

You see how that under 'What you will use...', in Section D, it says 13.3 grams? Well, that is wrong as it assumes you are only making a 'Volume of Ambient Wort (VAW)' of 13.32 L (see section K). But you are really making 13.32 L plus the 11.0 L you are adding in Section N. If you understand that then...

The hop weight you should actually use will be 13.3 * 24.32 / 13.32 which equals 24.3 grams. (This is an unfortunate example as the 13.3 grams closely resembles the 13.32 L of VAW. This is pure coincidence.)

Some Loose Ends

In the files above, I noticed that one file had in Section D a number in the first two fields. There should always only be a number in one of the two first fields.

Ian, in your first post on this recipe, you mentioned a 'batch size' of 23 litres. THis often does not mean the 'Volume of Ambient Wort (VAW)' or End of Boil Volume - Ambient (EOBV-A)'. Not getting that number right can compromise recipe copying a great deal. Have a read of this post for more info.


PP

makka, read the above post first ,

You mentioned,

So Section N is for corrections on the day of brew and does not seem to have any effect to the rest of the spreadsheet. I can put that I have lost 300 L in wort lost from fermentor and still get the same VIP Witchcraft I tell thee!

Nup! . Any number you type into Section N will change the numbers in Section O but only if you have typed in your KFL and VIF into Section L. This has been done on purpose because you shouldn't make Pre-pitching corrections until you actually know what sort of wort you have produced. Section O should probably also require that GAW in section M is completed but I have left that out for now.

It seems like Maxi BIAB cannot work with this calculator because I am only getting 12L at my final gravity reading and can't get any more out of the system.

The BIABacus is actually the only calculator/program that will work properly with Maxi-BIAB. If you are getting volume and/or recipe 'out of bounds' warnings, they are appearing for very good reason - your recipe plan won't work. Your plan will probably will work in commercial software (almost for sure) or old versions of the Maxi-BIAB calculator because they do not have the advanced warnings or formulas used in the BIABacus.

So I need more spit is what you are saying regarding the out of bounds warnings. So with the pan I have the obvious question first is what is the most grain I can have in my pan for a mash and the second question is and what gravity will my final wort be inc pre boil top up etc and post boil gravity. My total grain bill does not want to go up past
3202g as my grain to liquid would be out or as you so well put it 'not enough spit':)

I am hoping the post above to Ian and Richard will help you here. There is also this post. The pics/terminology are based on the first pre-release version but the idea is the same.

Also do an advanced search of my posts that contain the term "extreme brewing" as there will definitely be some answers for you there.

...

In section W and section K work together. I say this because of this.

Looking at your recipe file, VIP is at 11.11, does this include the 5.85L added in section W?

Yes, it does.

If I keep the boil topped up to the brim with the water dunked in the bag of grains like Ralphs thread is that also calculated in? Think I know the answer but not sure:)

I refer to that thread in my posts that have the term 'extreme brewing' in them . Do you really want to brew like that?

btw just having a pint of Amarillo American Pale Ale, fantastic hops!!

Good man

Just a warning... It looks like the change I made in PR 1.3F has buggered up the auto-efficiency formula so any files I posted in the two posts above are compromised.

That is pretty annoying

No probs makka. Run out of time now but things should free up in a few more days. For now though, your plan looks fine. Maxi-BIAB simply means it is going to cost you a bit more in one or more of the following - time, effort and/or ingredients and, if you dilute too much in the fermentor, quality might be reduced a bit. The BIABacus will warn you if you are getting out of control and throw a warning at you.

So, all should be good with your plan. The main things you will have to be careful of if mashing in a plastic fermentor are...

1. The bag might be hard/impossible to pull out. Just drain it out the tap.

2. You'll want to clean/sterilise the fermentor bloody well after the mash as there is lots of wild yeast, bacteria etc on grain.

I think that is all I had to say anyway makka .

Now I really am out of time!!!!

Hi all,

I have prepared the attached file for a Vienna lager.

I have tried to listen to everything thus far and have decided to do an experimental "all grain" BIAB using just my 15L pot, so this means it will be a small brew.

I am aiming for one carton or approximately 9L into packaging.

I have formulated the recipe myself after reading several articles but the main influence comes from the BYO article "Vienna Lager in Exile".

I deliberately want to keep it simple, this is so I can alter it in the future and gauge the effects. I have only included a minimal grain bill but used the BIABacus to ensure I keep within guidelines for IBU's and colour. I added the Caramunich as it was mentioned in the article and the chocolate malt only for colour.

I liked the unit conversion sheet, this was great in helping with the colour as it gives the conversions between SRM/EBC/Lovibond.

I plan to set the fridge to 9c to allow for a couple of degrees rise inside due to fermentation activity. I also plan to ver pitch due to the lower temp, I am not sure but was thinking of just pitching the whole pack of yeast even though this is abit less than half the usual volume in fermented?

I think I've gotten a handle on the basics of the spreadsheet, not sure about H the fermenting section, I am thinking I will need a diactyl rest but not really sure it if is needed if I pitch and ferment at about 10c?

I am not too sure how long fermentation will take at this lower temp but if I should do a diactyl rest should I do it at a certain time or wait until the ferment has basically finished?

I'd appreciate it if anyone has time to have a quick look to see if I've ballsed it up any.

cheers
Ian

Hi Ian -

I had a quick look and noticed; section H "attenuation", is 70% what you normally get for w34/70? I get nearer to 80%.
Section Y - you have zeroes in the choc malt section (I don't think it is doing anything, but best to remove them anyway).

Other than that I didn't notice anything else with my quick scan, other than for recipe formulation, which is personal choice anyway.

If you want simple, I would recommend a SMaSH recipe. 100% Vienna, 1 hop. In fact I did one last year and used Aramis hops. This was one of my best lagers to date (although PP's favourite is still conditioning so may well eclipse it yet)!
You may want to consider aroma & flavour additions but I appreciate what you say about the hop schedule.

I also ferment at 9C and have never needed to do a D rest, but its easy enough to check and do it if necessary. You will typically need to do this before fermentation completes though e.g. at 1.020 (ish).

I tend not to worry how long fermentation is either, it is done when it's done, but can be anywhere up to 4 weeks especially if underpitching (or NOT overpitching). I then wait for yeast to drop completely so that the beer is clear and has a nice compact sediment. transfer to secondary & lager for at least 4 weeks at 2-4C.

Very nice job on the BIABacus file Ian .

Diacetyl rest should be unnecessary if you pitch at the low yeast temp and keep the temp controlled during that initial very active fermentation. As for the W34/70, I used it on two brews last year and they both got silver but here is what I did...

I pitched low and kept them at 9 C and then after a few days, no idea why, thought I'd look up the specs. Suddenly saw it was 11C or something. What the...? Anyway, gradually raised the temp up to about 15 over four or five days as a compromise and then went back down again. Too much work though and, from memory I have had silver on those before without doing a rest - can't remember for sure though?

As for the recipe, I am not good on this stuff so I look at Brewing Classic Styles and check for major variations. I would change your desired tinseth in Section D to 21.5 made up of 17 grams at 60 mins and 5.5 grams at 10 mins - both 4.7% Hallertau.

Also, drop the mash temp by one degree to 67C. (Note, in the BIABacus, delete the whole line where you have typed Sacc rest as it is not needed.)

Agree with/like everything mally has written above. Also with what you have written Ian so, none of us can be too far wrong.


PP

P.S. One sentence just caught my eye, "I deliberately want to keep it simple, this is so I can alter it in the future and gauge the effects." This is great but often hard to do in practice unless you brew side by side. Judging the same recipe brewed on a different day is prone to a lot of error.

Hi guys

Firstly thanks for your inputs.

I haven't quite got my head around attenuation yet, I did not input 70% into the spreadsheet I think it must have been in there already I will alter it on your suggestion and that is one of the areas of interest for me to read up on soon.

I was going to so a SMaSH and given your comments mally, I think I will go back to that idea for this first brew. I had included a very small amount (10-15g) of the choc only as a way of increasing (darkening) the colour, this suggestion came from the BYO article I read. Without either this or the caramunich the colour is not close to the style guide. Maybe that is not so important at this stage.

Most of what I have read suggests hop aroma to be low to none so I think I might go with PP's suggestion so it gets a slight aroma.

Mally, your comments about a D rest are inline with what I had read so I think if it is cold enough I wont bother unless I can taste it.

Regarding the yeast, I wanted to use it just because of its origins, I have checked the specs and it says 9-22c, ideal 12-15c so I think setting the fridge at 9-10c should be just about right if you assume it is a degree or two warmer in the centre.

Thanks for the comments about the file, it is a brilliant spreadsheet and I am looking forward to using it in more detail in the future.

Appreciate the comments about trying to compare brews, I can see that is probably impossible unless you do two at the same time as the earlier brew will always be longer in the bottle so will always taste different etc.

My only question is what do you think about pitching a whole pack of yeast in a small brew like this, does that constitute over pitching (which is what the specs recommend) or is that too much?

cheers

Good stuff Ian

Homemade wrote:My only question is what do you think about pitching a whole pack of yeast in a small brew like this, does that constitute over pitching (which is what the specs recommend) or is that too much?

I think this is fine Ian. Just aerate your wort and then sprinkle the pack on top. (I usually brew double your amount and use a pack and a half but have used less and more in the past.) There are no right answers here that I have ever seen. If you want proof of this, have a read of this interesting thread and follow all the links in it.


PP

In post #1331 above, I posted a few BIABacus PR 1.3F files and they had a major fault in them - the auto-efficiency formula wasn't working.

I have just posted PR 1.3G in this post which corrects that error. see the first post of that thread for other changes between PR1.3 and PR 1.3G.

jdeiro,

I am brewing this today, funny you should post this up, jdeiro.

With a 22.7 L pot, the best I can recommend atm, is making a 15 L into the fermenter batch. If you are interested in that size, the grain bill is ~4.76 kg, starting water at 16 L, and top up water before the boil is 7 L. More details to follow, if interested.
~richard

I just had Bell's Two Hearted IPA on tap a few days ago! It was sublime. The fancy restaurant I was at charged $6 a glass. I could buy a six pack for $8. I may have to give it a go also. The hops kicked my taste buds back to life. I hope yours turns out as well? I will copy this one for my records! Good luck!

jdeiro wrote:

Mad_Scientist wrote:jdeiro,

I am brewing this today, funny you should post this up, jdeiro.

With a 22.7 L pot, the best I can recommend atm, is making a 15 L into the fermenter batch. If you are interested in that size, the grain bill is ~4.76 kg, starting water at 16 L, and top up water before the boil is 7 L. More details to follow, if interested.
~richard

I am VERY interested!!

15 L is a decent batch size, I can bottle up to 25 regular bottles with it.

Have a look at this file, jdeiro. Thank you for that link, I didn't see that one. I researched this recipe and found a couple of them. It's nice to see they recommend mashing at 153 F and use C 15.

dryhte, I would recommend you first get your pot and bag.

For this recipe, you can make this 20 L (1.074 SG) beer in a 40 L, but not in the 29 L. So, consider asking yourself about the size pot first, then we can further assist you with a recipe next.

We have a wonderful BIAB recipe designer, calculator and scaler called the BIABacus. Download the PR1.3 version here; http://www.biabrewer.info/viewtopic.php ... 869#p25993

You posted in the correct thread, we are here to help you get started.

dryhte, I would start by reading the Sweet Liquor Shop posts and...The Basics of BIAB...

Listening to Pat on the podcast is a favorite of mine too.

So a full volume shop, yes,... I recommend this.


MS