Hey folks, I want to first say it's awesome there's a whole forum for this. I'm always searching for ways to make beer faster, and do stuff differently. Funny enough when I started brewing and explained to my wife why I had to convert a cooler into an MLT with an ss braid, she said "why don't you get a big sack and put your grains in there and just steep it in a big pot?". I of course responded with "well that's not how you do it... I don't know why though.." LOL
Anyhow, my goal is to shorten my brewday as much as possible and I'm hoping this well help, I have a few main questions.
1 - Keeping a mash temp. I'm paranoid about not being able to keep the mash temp for the time needed. I plan on using my converted keg that I use as a kettle to to do the whole brew, so I can fire up the burner when needed. Do most of you keep the flame low the entire time, or just fire it up every once in a while? I know every setup is different but is there a general rule of thumb people go by?
2 - Mashing time. I noticed 90 minutes is the standard for BIAB and the last AG brew I did for 40 minutes and hit all my numbers. That 50 extra minutes to mash with BIAB outweighs any time I spend batch sparging and cleaning the extra equipment needed. I'd love it if someone could tell me "yes, I've mashed for 40 minutes while BIAB with great results" though I don't expect that response.. My thought though is that with so much more water touching the grain and being able to mix it around wouldn't it convert more quickly than in a standard MLT?
If the mash time does need to be much longer than with a standard AG brew, how about just lining my MLT with a paint strainer bag, mash as usual with the grain in the bag, and batch sparge with the bag still in my MLT. Sort of a partial BIAB. My dead space is a huge problem as I currently use a 48quart coleman cooler with the ball valve above the bottom and with no slant at the bottom so I know I lose some very high gravity wort..
Any suggestions? Thanks!
Post #2 made 15 years ago
Hi Nicko, yeah this place gets bigger and better every day!
1. I wouldn't be too paranoid about maintaining a precise mash temperature, it is not that big a problem to lose a degree or two during a mash, particularly if you're looking at shorter mashes. I just insulate my stockpot well, if you're using a converted keg with a burner then it is trickier but do- able with some care. If you need to add heat, put a cake rack or similar in the kettle first, direct heat _will_ melt the bag, plus you'll need to stir it.
If I need to add heat, I'll add it through infusion (i.e. more hot water) or by decoction, there's too much farting around involved by any other means for me.
2. Yeah, lots of views about mash duration. If you're getting good results at 40 minutes it indicates that things like crush and pH just right, plus lautering is fine too. I think the 90 minute mash is basically a default which should permit reliable and decent efficiency in most circumstances, if you're getting good results with 40 minutes already, then I'd stick with it when you 'upgrade'.
You are quite right in that BIAB does have an enormous liquor to grist ratio (L:G), in the past this was seen as a bad thing but we know differently now, and as an aside, I also note some of the commercial training providers are unfortunately quite averse to the idea. But results are results...
Also, be sure to be nice to your wife, she obviously has keen insights into brewing and this is a very rare and valuable thing! :D
1. I wouldn't be too paranoid about maintaining a precise mash temperature, it is not that big a problem to lose a degree or two during a mash, particularly if you're looking at shorter mashes. I just insulate my stockpot well, if you're using a converted keg with a burner then it is trickier but do- able with some care. If you need to add heat, put a cake rack or similar in the kettle first, direct heat _will_ melt the bag, plus you'll need to stir it.
If I need to add heat, I'll add it through infusion (i.e. more hot water) or by decoction, there's too much farting around involved by any other means for me.
2. Yeah, lots of views about mash duration. If you're getting good results at 40 minutes it indicates that things like crush and pH just right, plus lautering is fine too. I think the 90 minute mash is basically a default which should permit reliable and decent efficiency in most circumstances, if you're getting good results with 40 minutes already, then I'd stick with it when you 'upgrade'.
You are quite right in that BIAB does have an enormous liquor to grist ratio (L:G), in the past this was seen as a bad thing but we know differently now, and as an aside, I also note some of the commercial training providers are unfortunately quite averse to the idea. But results are results...
Also, be sure to be nice to your wife, she obviously has keen insights into brewing and this is a very rare and valuable thing! :D
Last edited by Ralph on 26 Sep 2010, 07:29, edited 5 times in total.
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Post #3 made 15 years ago
Awesome I definitely will. I mainly feel silly for not taking credit for this great idea that she gave me before BIAB got popular (I think..) a few years ago. I was going to get a paint strainer bag anyway to throw hops into... I use a lot of pellet hops.. I like to use as much as physically possible and I just started doing no chill into a corny so I want to maximize my space as it's only 5 gal.Ralph wrote:Hi Nicko, yeah this place gets bigger and better every day!
Also, be sure to be nice to your wife, she obviously has keen insights into brewing and this is a very rare and valuable thing! :D
I want to be able to mash and boil in the same keg and I watched a great short youtube video of a guy in canada doing this so I figure if in the cold there he can keep a mash temp I could. I will definitely put a cookie rack at the bottom of the kettle so I can put a low flame on if needed. Thanks.
Last edited by Nikobrew on 26 Sep 2010, 07:52, edited 5 times in total.
Post #4 made 15 years ago
I want to keep this a secret from my brewclub pals for as long as I can hold it in..I want to hand them the beer and say "oh and I brewed that in a bag" lol. As long as I can get a conversion in 40 minutesish and rig up my setup to do it all in the kettle I'm excited to try this. I'm on a constant search to make the brewday as fast as possible. I have a 19 month old toddler and 4 month old and recently realized I can get up when I normally do on a workday (around 4:30am) and have the brewday done by the time the toddler wakes up (around 8:30 or 9) if I simplify all steps.
Post #5 made 15 years ago
Hi Nicko and welcome to the forum.
Firstly, I hope your wife has a sister and that she's single
.
Regarding your questions...
1. Maintaining heat with BIAB is easy using your burner. Just check the temp every now and then (how often you need to do this will depend on ambient temperatures) and if it needs more heat, fire your burner up and gently agitate the grain whilst the heat is applied. You might have to do this two or three times during a 90 minute mash. Some people use a cake stand as Ralph mentioned but this is not necessary if you stir. I personally don't use one. At the end of the mash when I raise the temp to 78, I raise the bag off the bottom of the kettle and fire up full flame.
2. How short you can do your mash will depend on several things. Have a read here. I am not sure if there is a minumum mash time i.e. a minumum time that it takes for some of the more complex mash reactions to ocurr.
The Canadian guy's video is well presented but there are a few things in it that I wouldn't do. For example, I think from memory, he adds his grain and then heats the water up which I would avoid.
Good to have you aboard Niko amd we'll look forward to hearing how you go,
PP
Firstly, I hope your wife has a sister and that she's single
.Regarding your questions...
1. Maintaining heat with BIAB is easy using your burner. Just check the temp every now and then (how often you need to do this will depend on ambient temperatures) and if it needs more heat, fire your burner up and gently agitate the grain whilst the heat is applied. You might have to do this two or three times during a 90 minute mash. Some people use a cake stand as Ralph mentioned but this is not necessary if you stir. I personally don't use one. At the end of the mash when I raise the temp to 78, I raise the bag off the bottom of the kettle and fire up full flame.
2. How short you can do your mash will depend on several things. Have a read here. I am not sure if there is a minumum mash time i.e. a minumum time that it takes for some of the more complex mash reactions to ocurr.
The Canadian guy's video is well presented but there are a few things in it that I wouldn't do. For example, I think from memory, he adds his grain and then heats the water up which I would avoid.
Good to have you aboard Niko amd we'll look forward to hearing how you go,
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 26 Sep 2010, 08:04, edited 5 times in total.
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Post #6 made 15 years ago
Yep, that's the real benefit from BIAB, mashing and boiling in the same vessel, I can't work out why it wasn't obvious many moons ago when it became known that iron and steel could be directly heated, plus cloth was already used for straining (eg. cheesecloth, muslin).
I really don't want to burst your bubble, but the earliest reference I have to a BIAB method is mid- late- 70s*, but your wife has come up with the concept independently, so that's really well done on her behalf!
* "Brew Like a Monk" by Stan Hieronymus, 2005, p10- 11 which references a Chimay recipe from "Brewing Beers Like Those You Buy" (G.W. Kent, 1978), although it is a bit ambiguous and needs clarification (anyone out there got it?) but does seem to describe a BIAB process. Others were very close (Dave Line) but missed by a whisker, didn't make the great leap of logic as your wife seems to have done.
I really don't want to burst your bubble, but the earliest reference I have to a BIAB method is mid- late- 70s*, but your wife has come up with the concept independently, so that's really well done on her behalf!
* "Brew Like a Monk" by Stan Hieronymus, 2005, p10- 11 which references a Chimay recipe from "Brewing Beers Like Those You Buy" (G.W. Kent, 1978), although it is a bit ambiguous and needs clarification (anyone out there got it?) but does seem to describe a BIAB process. Others were very close (Dave Line) but missed by a whisker, didn't make the great leap of logic as your wife seems to have done.
Last edited by Ralph on 26 Sep 2010, 08:17, edited 5 times in total.
[center]Give me a beer and I will move the world. Archimedes[/center]
Post #7 made 15 years ago
She has a brother who is single...nice guy.. had a decent job. He's on facebook PM me and I'll send you his namePistolPatch wrote:Hi Nicko and welcome to the forum.
Firstly, I hope your wife has a sister and that she's single
Last edited by Nikobrew on 26 Sep 2010, 08:17, edited 5 times in total.
Post #8 made 15 years ago
Thanks I just reread that thread. I forgot I had already read it and wanted to post but wasn't a member yetPistolPatch wrote: The Canadian guy's video is well presented but there are a few things in it that I wouldn't do. For example, I think from memory, he adds his grain and then heats the water up which I would avoid.
I'm pretty impatient at times especially when it comes to learning more about brewing.I also thought it was strange that he was bringing the temp up AFTER the grains were added. I also discovered not being completely wrecked by the end of the brewday speeds up the process. Literally cut my brewday in HALF by having all my equip ready and not getting hammered.. Had a couple beers just not a bunch. It definitely made it easier to multitask.
I like being able to get all the temps moving when you want to i.e. sometimes it doesn't work out to drain my MLT into my kettle and start heating that up while I sparge more. Having it all in one place I could mashout and if the temp gets too high then oh well pull out the grains and start the boil
Last edited by Nikobrew on 26 Sep 2010, 08:21, edited 5 times in total.
Post #9 made 15 years ago
LOL on her brother .
I forgot to say Niko that I used to brew traditionally. I reckon it's great that you are giving BIAB a go and I'd put money on it that you will be very happy with the resulting beer and the process.
You mentioned pulling the bag when the temp reaches mashout. I'll often do that. If I'm not in a hurry, I'll usually leave it at mashout for 5 or ten minutes. I've also done heaps of beers with no mashout (before I had a pulley) with no problems.
If you do go a 40 minute mash, I'd definitely do a mashout though.
Cheers!
.I forgot to say Niko that I used to brew traditionally. I reckon it's great that you are giving BIAB a go and I'd put money on it that you will be very happy with the resulting beer and the process.
You mentioned pulling the bag when the temp reaches mashout. I'll often do that. If I'm not in a hurry, I'll usually leave it at mashout for 5 or ten minutes. I've also done heaps of beers with no mashout (before I had a pulley) with no problems.
If you do go a 40 minute mash, I'd definitely do a mashout though.
Cheers!
Last edited by PistolPatch on 26 Sep 2010, 08:32, edited 5 times in total.
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Post #10 made 15 years ago
I also like doing stuff people tell me not to. Like the no chill method I've got bulk ingredients just need time to make them into beer. I will do this either Monday morning or next weekend..or at least I plan to.
I've got bulk ingredients just need time to make them into beer. I will do this either Monday morning or next weekend..or at least I plan to.
Post #11 made 15 years ago
LOL niko!
I just remembered some stuff regarding this subject and wrote you an answer here.
In that thread you mentioned using a refractometer. I have one and haven't used it for ages. I may be wrong but after using one for quite a while, taking samples and comparing them with hydrometers and have other brewers take identical readings, I found it to be too unreliable.
A lot of brewers love them (as I did) but my love was mainly through someone else's hype and who funnily enough, sold them.
I think the problems with refractometers might be...
1. From what I understand, it is an instrument used for measuring grape juice at ambient temps not beer at mash or boiling temps.
2. Evaporation occurs quickly on an open spoon at mash and boiling temps. If you aren't getting that sample onto the glass quickly, how much water will have evaporated giving you a higher reading? Perhaps I should have used the "eye dropper," and let it cool within the dropper first. This is what you should do (and I ended up doing) but a lot of brewers don't.
3. The sample size is so small that husks and air bubbles easily affect the reading.
4. The gravity reading tends to rise over time so you need to make a decision as to "when" you will read it.
I haven't dragged mine out in a while. Perhaps it was inexperience at that stage of my brewing that lead me not to trust a refractometer reading completely but I don't think so. I remember clearly having several brewers looking through it at the same time and them never agreeing on the reading so I doubt my mistrust is totally misplaced.
If I had my time again, I'd buy more hydrometers and compare the results between them so as to work out the best average because hydrometers aren't that great either.
Cheers,
PP
I just remembered some stuff regarding this subject and wrote you an answer here.
In that thread you mentioned using a refractometer. I have one and haven't used it for ages. I may be wrong but after using one for quite a while, taking samples and comparing them with hydrometers and have other brewers take identical readings, I found it to be too unreliable.
A lot of brewers love them (as I did) but my love was mainly through someone else's hype and who funnily enough, sold them
.I think the problems with refractometers might be...
1. From what I understand, it is an instrument used for measuring grape juice at ambient temps not beer at mash or boiling temps.
2. Evaporation occurs quickly on an open spoon at mash and boiling temps. If you aren't getting that sample onto the glass quickly, how much water will have evaporated giving you a higher reading? Perhaps I should have used the "eye dropper," and let it cool within the dropper first. This is what you should do (and I ended up doing) but a lot of brewers don't.
3. The sample size is so small that husks and air bubbles easily affect the reading.
4. The gravity reading tends to rise over time so you need to make a decision as to "when" you will read it.
I haven't dragged mine out in a while. Perhaps it was inexperience at that stage of my brewing that lead me not to trust a refractometer reading completely but I don't think so. I remember clearly having several brewers looking through it at the same time and them never agreeing on the reading so I doubt my mistrust is totally misplaced.
If I had my time again, I'd buy more hydrometers and compare the results between them so as to work out the best average because hydrometers aren't that great either
.Cheers,
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 28 Sep 2010, 18:35, edited 5 times in total.
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Post #12 made 15 years ago
I'll add to that, I had a refrac for a while. At first I thought it was the bee's knees, but the more readings I took the more un-reliable it became. I actually found the readings could be manipulated to get a more desirable reading. I gave up after 1/2 a dozen brews and went back to my hydro, it's much more consistent.
"It's beer Jim, but not as we know it."
