not quite sure where to ask this but here goes
i am building a 70 litre recirculating setup.I have noticed some pictures of peoples setups using only a pickup tube and no filter.my question is during mashing do you only need a support to keep the bag off of the element not a false bottom and during the boil what do people do about filtering the hops( reuse grain bag?,hop bag or filter).I will use a pump as I want to recirculate at least during last 10 minutes of the boil to sterilise my plate chiller.
thanks in advance Paul
Post #2 made 12 years ago
Paul, I use an Old BIAB bag, It IS 4"shorter than standard, and is 4"+ from the Bottom when Installed.
It does work well with Hops and does collect a fair bit of Break Material.
It does work well with Hops and does collect a fair bit of Break Material.
Honest Officer, I swear to Drunk, I am Not God.
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Post #3 made 12 years ago
Dammit Paul! 
I thought I had just written my last post of the night but if I don't post to this, I'll never get to sleep
.
It's really important to understand why you are doing what you are doing. Crusty spent $4,000 on a RIMS/HERMS/whatever set-up. He subsequently sold it after many brews and now brews with an electric urn. He changed because he thought the beer was better not because it was easier. What can we say to that?
So, just stop and think for a bit....
1. There is absolutely no evidence that an even mash temp produces a better beer. It is easy to do this with BIAB but I am an experienced brewer and an advocate of BIAB but still don't know whether this is an advantage or disadvantage. Crusty didn't like the 'evenness' of his $4,000 system so why should any of us others expect it to be a good thing?
2. I'm not sure how to say this but I am actually really pro bling. Bling like plate chillers and pumps really excite me. But, the reality is that all the bling (pumps, taps, filters, plate-chillers and many more things) all sit in my brewing room idle. How dissapointing is that for me!!!
So, should I keep my mouth shut and pretend that the way you are heading is great? Or should I speak up and say, "Don't go there?" I think the latter is the best, most honest and productive answer. I have an embarrassment of useless parts and implements that anyone is welcome to see if they drop around for a beer at my place so you don't have a patch on me.
I've been on holiday for a bit but one of the site founders wrote here the other day, "The process of creating sweet liquor that occurs between mash in and the beginning of the boil is only one part of the brewing process."
I really like that.
If you are a new brewer, you should aim at the most simple way of turning water into sweet liquor. Full-volume brewing with as few 'moving parts' as possible is the best way to go. Can you argue against that logic? (I certainly believe it - come and have a look at my 'spare parts' room any time
.)
You'll be very tempted to continue on the path you are on Paul as you have obviously made a time and money investment in that path. Imagine though if you put your thinking power into far more important areas of the brewing process such as cleaning kegs or bottles?
One lone voice is probably not enough to question your current plan so I hope some others will back my post above up. If they don't, a good thinking exercise for you would be to prove me wrong. In other words, challenge my advice above. I think it's very good advice but the only way I learned how to give it was by asking challenging questions.
Does that sound fair?
PP
I thought I had just written my last post of the night but if I don't post to this, I'll never get to sleep
.It's really important to understand why you are doing what you are doing. Crusty spent $4,000 on a RIMS/HERMS/whatever set-up. He subsequently sold it after many brews and now brews with an electric urn. He changed because he thought the beer was better not because it was easier. What can we say to that?
So, just stop and think for a bit....
1. There is absolutely no evidence that an even mash temp produces a better beer. It is easy to do this with BIAB but I am an experienced brewer and an advocate of BIAB but still don't know whether this is an advantage or disadvantage. Crusty didn't like the 'evenness' of his $4,000 system so why should any of us others expect it to be a good thing?
2. I'm not sure how to say this but I am actually really pro bling. Bling like plate chillers and pumps really excite me. But, the reality is that all the bling (pumps, taps, filters, plate-chillers and many more things) all sit in my brewing room idle. How dissapointing is that for me!!!
So, should I keep my mouth shut and pretend that the way you are heading is great? Or should I speak up and say, "Don't go there?" I think the latter is the best, most honest and productive answer. I have an embarrassment of useless parts and implements that anyone is welcome to see if they drop around for a beer at my place so you don't have a patch on me
.I've been on holiday for a bit but one of the site founders wrote here the other day, "The process of creating sweet liquor that occurs between mash in and the beginning of the boil is only one part of the brewing process."
I really like that.
If you are a new brewer, you should aim at the most simple way of turning water into sweet liquor. Full-volume brewing with as few 'moving parts' as possible is the best way to go. Can you argue against that logic? (I certainly believe it - come and have a look at my 'spare parts' room any time
.)You'll be very tempted to continue on the path you are on Paul as you have obviously made a time and money investment in that path. Imagine though if you put your thinking power into far more important areas of the brewing process such as cleaning kegs or bottles?
One lone voice is probably not enough to question your current plan so I hope some others will back my post above up. If they don't, a good thinking exercise for you would be to prove me wrong. In other words, challenge my advice above. I think it's very good advice but the only way I learned how to give it was by asking challenging questions.
Does that sound fair?
PP
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Post #4 made 12 years ago
thanks PP just to put you in the picture I am new to BIABbrewing having done only one brew in my 40 litre buffalo urn using my pump and a microwave rack with a voile curtain as a bag and hop filter fitted,but I have done many AG brews with my 3 vessel herms system but that is limited to my 38 litre mash tun size and I need to up my brew length as in the summer I cant keep up with demand from friends and nieghbours.So I actually have most of the items, including 70 and 100 litre stainless pots already, the only things I need are the bag and something to keep bag off of the element.That is why my questions were about use of hop stoppers and filters as I have a hop stopper already in my boiler but had noticed the use of just a pickup tube on some setups.I already have the plate chiller as well.
I am planning to try simple BIAB with some form of insulation as well ,why am I considering all these things and not just getting a bigger mash tun,I am attracted by the ease and less effort required
sorry to ramble
Paul
I am planning to try simple BIAB with some form of insulation as well ,why am I considering all these things and not just getting a bigger mash tun,I am attracted by the ease and less effort required
sorry to ramble
Paul
Post #5 made 12 years ago
Hi Paul
PP has made some fair comments and like him and the next man I love shiny stuff and think it's cool and exciting. I do prefer the simple approach though, I haven't even drilled my pot for a tap opting to build a free standing syphon instead.( was that simpler
I don't know 
)
I saw a post over on Jims which I take is the same paulg asking if it was worth recirculating and I see you are a 3v herms brewer so the auto side of things is in your blood, you obviously like this aspect of brewing and its not just the beer that floats ya boat
good on ya Paul keep it up as I love all the techy things other guys do.
One thing from that post is that you didn't get a complete answer to your question "is it worth it? recirculating" one answer you got is below:
Using BIAB I never got efficiency above 65% it was almost always 65%.
I modified my system to recirculate via a Solar Projects Pump and a home made heat exchanger to reheat to mash temp using a PID. i.e. Herms.
Four Herms brews have all yielded 70% efficiency. So a 5% change.
Now this is from a guy who's efficiency has always been low and he has said the same in several posts. I have even PM'd to ask him to clarify as to what efficiency he is quoting. I did this with the intention of trying to help him out as the constant "Biab is good but low efficiency is a problem" posts were irritating me and putting biab down. Needless to say I'm still waiting on a reply
. Without clarification his quoted 5% rise is meaningless. It could be down to better trub management and nothing to do with his Herms setup.!
Anyway that hasn't answered your question here though
I reckon if you use a hop sock you will be able to use a pick up with no filter, which will probably be easier as I think anything but a bazooka could let hop debris and seeds through. On the false bottom/bag support lots of guys use cake racks which come in various sizes. A circular one 2-3 inches off the bottom would be ideal.
Sorry for the ramble above, I've just re-read the whole thread and I can see that this may come across as a bit of a lecture with a lot of tutting going on. This isn't my intention I'm really interested in your set up and the results it produces so please keep us up to date with the numbers.
Yeasty
PP has made some fair comments and like him and the next man I love shiny stuff and think it's cool and exciting. I do prefer the simple approach though, I haven't even drilled my pot for a tap opting to build a free standing syphon instead.( was that simpler
I don't know ) I saw a post over on Jims which I take is the same paulg asking if it was worth recirculating and I see you are a 3v herms brewer so the auto side of things is in your blood, you obviously like this aspect of brewing and its not just the beer that floats ya boat
good on ya Paul keep it up as I love all the techy things other guys do.One thing from that post is that you didn't get a complete answer to your question "is it worth it? recirculating" one answer you got is below:
Using BIAB I never got efficiency above 65% it was almost always 65%.
I modified my system to recirculate via a Solar Projects Pump and a home made heat exchanger to reheat to mash temp using a PID. i.e. Herms.
Four Herms brews have all yielded 70% efficiency. So a 5% change.
Now this is from a guy who's efficiency has always been low and he has said the same in several posts. I have even PM'd to ask him to clarify as to what efficiency he is quoting. I did this with the intention of trying to help him out as the constant "Biab is good but low efficiency is a problem" posts were irritating me and putting biab down. Needless to say I'm still waiting on a reply
. Without clarification his quoted 5% rise is meaningless. It could be down to better trub management and nothing to do with his Herms setup.!Anyway that hasn't answered your question here though
I reckon if you use a hop sock you will be able to use a pick up with no filter, which will probably be easier as I think anything but a bazooka could let hop debris and seeds through. On the false bottom/bag support lots of guys use cake racks which come in various sizes. A circular one 2-3 inches off the bottom would be ideal.
Sorry for the ramble above, I've just re-read the whole thread and I can see that this may come across as a bit of a lecture with a lot of tutting going on. This isn't my intention I'm really interested in your set up and the results it produces so please keep us up to date with the numbers.
Yeasty
Last edited by Yeasty on 07 Feb 2013, 05:00, edited 2 times in total.
Why is everyone talking about "Cheese"
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Post #6 made 12 years ago
Good Day, Just to keep this Going...A hop spider can really help the Hop Debris in a kettle see..
http://www.biabrewer.info/viewtopic.php ... 134#p19134 for a simple spider!
If you have time, check the topic about Cake racks and pizza trays to keep the bag off the bottom/element at http://www.biabrewer.info/viewtopic.php ... 7456#p7456
http://www.biabrewer.info/viewtopic.php ... 134#p19134 for a simple spider!
If you have time, check the topic about Cake racks and pizza trays to keep the bag off the bottom/element at http://www.biabrewer.info/viewtopic.php ... 7456#p7456
Honest Officer, I swear to Drunk, I am Not God.
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Post #7 made 12 years ago
Keep it simple and don't worry about the bag sitting on the element. As long as you don't recirculate during the mash, you should be fine. Only time I have had an issue with burnt wort is when using the pump at too fast of a rate created an air pocket under the bag around the element. I would bet that if you had a metal basket keeping everything up off the element and recirculated too fast, you would have the same problem. Best thing, use a mash paddle a couple of times during the mash and call it good.
Post #8 made 12 years ago
hi yeasty yes thats me
with regards to efficiency my trial 19 litre brew using buffalo when you input the figures into BIABacus I got good efficiency in the 80% mash and 75% brewhouse .this was not including my sugar cockup just grain bill figures .As I have mentioned I was quite happy with this.I suppose the driving factor on recirculation is the fact my pot is uninsulated and my existing mash tun is a thermopot.But of course many BIAB brewers use un insulated pots and just wrap them with blanket/camping mat/sleeping bag etc.
with regards to efficiency my trial 19 litre brew using buffalo when you input the figures into BIABacus I got good efficiency in the 80% mash and 75% brewhouse .this was not including my sugar cockup just grain bill figures .As I have mentioned I was quite happy with this.I suppose the driving factor on recirculation is the fact my pot is uninsulated and my existing mash tun is a thermopot.But of course many BIAB brewers use un insulated pots and just wrap them with blanket/camping mat/sleeping bag etc.
Post #9 made 12 years ago
Sorry for the slow response Paul. I often get side-tracked and time-challengedpaulg wrote:thanks PP just to put you in the picture I am new to BIABbrewing having done only one brew in my 40 litre buffalo urn using my pump and a microwave rack with a voile curtain as a bag and hop filter fitted,but I have done many AG brews with my 3 vessel herms system but that is limited to my 38 litre mash tun size and I need to up my brew length as in the summer I cant keep up with demand from friends and nieghbours....
. I also suspect Yeasty is more on board with your situation so..I don't think I will have any answers for you in this post sorry just maybe a few rambling thoughts.
I have a plate chiller here but have only used it twice as managing the flow was a PITA. In the post I quoted above, you mentioned wanting to produce more beer. Here's what I do now...
I have two set-ups (two burners, two 70 litre kettles and 2 IC's though one would suffice). I used to do two single batches in them side by side but last Easter started doing doubles. After the boil ended, I waited 15 minutes for everything to settle and then syphoned the first half of each batch into a cube for long-term storage. After that, I then turned on my immersion chiller and fermented those other two 'halves' immediately. So, in one brew day I get four 'batches'.
I'm drinking ales now brewed last Easter and currently have two lagers brewed last Easter fermenting. The ales are great and we'll see how the lagers go but I have no reason to suspect they will be any less than the chilled portions that both ended up scoring silvers.
My personal opinion is that on something like an APA, the twenty minute delay I employ now has an effect on some of the characters of the beer. It's nothing major and everyone likes to talk about no-chilling versus chilling but there are plenty of traditional brewers that don't start their chill until 40 minutes after flame-out. One of the most successful lager brewers I know does exactly this. I class his brewing as the equivalent to no-chill brewing. The real truth is we really don't know much about hop management. In the lagers he brews there are bugger all late hop additions compared to something like an APA.
If I wanted to brew a comp APA, I would start my chill, with an immersion chiller at flame out but bear in mind, I have done very few or no brews that FWH an APA or 'whirlpool' hop. This brings up three points I currently[/b] believe...
1. Brewing more quantity does nothing to speed up your education. One of my aims is to brew smaller batches more often.
2. Constant mash temps are of very low importance to me. I have done enough brews to know, to my palate at least, it makes not a great deal of difference. I usually maintain a constant mash temp but have buggered up plenty of times.
3. My real interest, when we are talking about styles with a flavour and aroma hop profile, is currently how to manage that. There are countless different ways in which hops can be managed. There are currently no definitive answers. Every style and hop is unique - we can't generalise.
So, if you enjoy APA's, IPA's, etc, I'd be mainly focused on hop management than the sweet liquor production that occurs pre-boil.
So many things to explore but the great thing is that all these experiments/ideas are not really that important, just interesting. The one thing I do know about all-grain is that it is easy to brew a great beer if you stick with the basics of reliable thermometers, cleanliness etc.
All this sort of talk is all about brewing the 'perfect' beer and if we had formulas and procedures that showed us how to do that, we'd all be getting 50/50 in comps. I haven't met one brewer yet who can do this or even consistently score highly but all of us should be brewing great beers if we do follow the basics.
Another ramble
,PP
P.S. Not too sure on the comps as the beers I really like always seem to score lower than the ones I get a place for. Go figure
).
Last edited by PistolPatch on 09 Feb 2013, 01:06, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #10 made 12 years ago
Hello Paul,paulg wrote: as I have a hop stopper already in my boiler but had noticed the use of just a pickup tube on some setups.I already have the plate chiller as well.
Paul
I am interested in knowing what your hop stopper looks like, did you make it or buy it? Can you post a picture or link?
~richard
Last edited by Mad_Scientist on 09 Feb 2013, 03:15, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #11 made 12 years ago
mad scientist it is a bought one like this .I believe they are available in the usa stores .they seem to work fine for my beers admittedly they are not hop heavy brews but I have never had a problem either draining or recirculating on my herms aetup
link
http://www.the-home-brew-shop.co.uk/cgi ... 90#a846190
link
http://www.the-home-brew-shop.co.uk/cgi ... 90#a846190
Post #12 made 12 years ago
Paul, that link you gave above is not giving us any pictures. Maybe you have to be logged in to see them?
Much more importantly, I can't believe you didn't even acknowledge my ramble above
. I don't let myself ramble much in threads like this so have just double-checked my last post. I actually do think there were some fair points there. Let me 'unbury' them and try and put them more briefly
The way I read the post I rambled to was that you want to produce more beer so...
Why not consider side by side, simultaneous brews?
You have two big kettles available to you (a 70 L and a 100L) that can easily handle, 'double batching'. Why not full-volume brew (pure BIAB) in them? Do what I do, no-chill the first half and chill the remaining half?
That gives you four 'worts' in a single brew day.
Surely that's good for your situation or am I missing something?
PP
Much more importantly, I can't believe you didn't even acknowledge my ramble above
. I don't let myself ramble much in threads like this so have just double-checked my last post. I actually do think there were some fair points there. Let me 'unbury' them and try and put them more briefly The way I read the post I rambled to was that you want to produce more beer so...
Why not consider side by side, simultaneous brews?
You have two big kettles available to you (a 70 L and a 100L) that can easily handle, 'double batching'. Why not full-volume brew (pure BIAB) in them? Do what I do, no-chill the first half and chill the remaining half?
That gives you four 'worts' in a single brew day.
Surely that's good for your situation or am I missing something?
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 12 Feb 2013, 19:01, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #13 made 12 years ago
Last edited by mally on 12 Feb 2013, 19:24, edited 2 times in total.
G B
I spent lots of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I squandered
I've stopped drinking, but only when I'm asleep
I ONCE gave up women and alcohol - it was the worst 20 minutes of my life
I spent lots of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I squandered
I've stopped drinking, but only when I'm asleep
I ONCE gave up women and alcohol - it was the worst 20 minutes of my life
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Post #14 made 12 years ago
sorry pp didnt mean to not reply
I actually missed your post .I tried the link and also got no pictures but mally has corrected that.
yes my aim is to increase production and cut down on cleaning /space required as my shed is full and the brew gear just gets pushed under the bench out of the way.I all goes well the mash tun ,buffalo urn and one of my pots can be sold.
As stated my existing setup produces beer that I am happy with but I am some one who likes to tinker and the idea of BIAB interests me .I had not thought of double brew days using both pots I could brew one with the 70 litre electric boiler I have built and one using my existing blichmann gas ring.
It is only today that I have installed a new 30 amp supply dedicated to my new electric boiler( 4500 watts ).
I still need to find a suitable cake rack/pizza plate 18" (44 cm) and order a bag or two.Then I am good to go
I actually missed your post .I tried the link and also got no pictures but mally has corrected that.
yes my aim is to increase production and cut down on cleaning /space required as my shed is full and the brew gear just gets pushed under the bench out of the way.I all goes well the mash tun ,buffalo urn and one of my pots can be sold.
As stated my existing setup produces beer that I am happy with but I am some one who likes to tinker and the idea of BIAB interests me .I had not thought of double brew days using both pots I could brew one with the 70 litre electric boiler I have built and one using my existing blichmann gas ring.
It is only today that I have installed a new 30 amp supply dedicated to my new electric boiler( 4500 watts ).
I still need to find a suitable cake rack/pizza plate 18" (44 cm) and order a bag or two.Then I am good to go
Post #15 made 12 years ago
Sorry Paul, I am running behind in my replies! Only downside of the side by side double brew days is that you end up with a lot of beer very quickly .
On the hop management side, I now always use my BIAB bag as a hop sock (always use pellets) and this works very well. You need to find some way of suspending it though.
PP
.On the hop management side, I now always use my BIAB bag as a hop sock (always use pellets) and this works very well. You need to find some way of suspending it though.
PP
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Post #16 made 12 years ago
.On the hop management side, I now always use my BIAB bag as a hop sock
I agree with PP here, but would add in big capital letters
.You need to find some way of suspending it though
Of all my brews to date, I would drape the BIAB bag over the lip of the kettle (about 2/3 would be outside 1/3rd in the kettle).
I would pop in and out whilst the boil was going, see nothing of interest was happening and then busy myself elsewhere. Except on my last brew i thought, why bother looking you know nothing happens.
So when i stroll/swagger in at the end of boil feeling smug that i didn't have to nurse the kettle, imagine my surprise to see no hopsock in sight
Yep, the one and only time i didn't nurse it, it decided to do a swan dive! and yep, all the hops had decided to escape the bag in a bid for freedom!
It maybe universal or just an English saying, but thats what we call "sods law".
Last edited by mally on 18 Feb 2013, 17:51, edited 2 times in total.
G B
I spent lots of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I squandered
I've stopped drinking, but only when I'm asleep
I ONCE gave up women and alcohol - it was the worst 20 minutes of my life
I spent lots of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I squandered
I've stopped drinking, but only when I'm asleep
I ONCE gave up women and alcohol - it was the worst 20 minutes of my life
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Post #17 made 12 years ago
Mally, I gave thr same prolem, a watched kettle never boils, and the bag always falls in.
I use 3-4 Large Binder Clips to hold the Bag off the Bottom http://c2.soap.com/images/products/wph/ ... mall2a.jpg
I use 3-4 Large Binder Clips to hold the Bag off the Bottom http://c2.soap.com/images/products/wph/ ... mall2a.jpg
Honest Officer, I swear to Drunk, I am Not God.
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Post #18 made 12 years ago
yep that is why I mentioned a cake rack or something similar in my prevoius post.having a problem finding something 18" (45 cm) wide though.I am assuming that the bulldog clip idea wouldnt work for the grain bill because of the weight involved ,or would it?
Post #19 made 12 years ago
Good Day, The weight of the grain in the water is 1/6th the weight of the Grain, when you pull the bag, due to the density of water vs, the density of the grain (Mr.Science)
You might need 4-6 and as many as 8 to hold a full grain bill off the bottom.
You might need 4-6 and as many as 8 to hold a full grain bill off the bottom.
Honest Officer, I swear to Drunk, I am Not God.
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Post #20 made 12 years ago
gentlemen thanks for your input
Am I correct in reading if you use enough binder clips(bulldog clips as I know them) you can keep the bag from falling in and not touching the element? I assumed that the bag would collapse in the middle to the lowest point ie touching the element even with the sides held above the level of the element by the clips
Am I correct in reading if you use enough binder clips(bulldog clips as I know them) you can keep the bag from falling in and not touching the element? I assumed that the bag would collapse in the middle to the lowest point ie touching the element even with the sides held above the level of the element by the clips
