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Continuous liquid or 2 addition?

Post #1 made 14 years ago
by olafphysics
This weekend I am going for my second BIAB (my first went well and is in the fermenter). I have a 7.5 gal pot for 5 gal batch which was fine for my first go at BIAB, but my next is a high alcohol that has much more grain. So, here is my question: Should I do two smaller liquid batches with half the grain, boil each and add to the fermenter? or Should I mash half the grain, drain, mash the other half in the full volume of water?
olafphysics

Chicago, IL

Post #2 made 14 years ago
by stux
Or option 3, maxi-biab
Fermenting: -
Cubed: -
Stirplate: -
On Tap: NS Summer Ale III (WY1272), Landlord III (WY1469), Fighter's 70/- II (WY1272), Roast Porter (WY1028), Cider, Soda
Next: Munich Helles III

5/7/12

Post #3 made 14 years ago
by joshua
Good Day, Go with MAXI-BAIB! and squezze the bag before and after the Sparge.
Honest Officer, I swear to Drunk, I am Not God.
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From United States of America

Post #4 made 14 years ago
by stux
Check this guide out for an idea of what we mean by Maxi-BIAB

http://www.biabrewer.info/viewtopic.php?f=89&t=352

Also, consider using this calculator to work out your recipe grain requirements, water volumes and sparge requirements

http://www.biabrewer.info/viewtopic.php?f=74&t=1066
Fermenting: -
Cubed: -
Stirplate: -
On Tap: NS Summer Ale III (WY1272), Landlord III (WY1469), Fighter's 70/- II (WY1272), Roast Porter (WY1028), Cider, Soda
Next: Munich Helles III

5/7/12

Post #5 made 14 years ago
by olafphysics
Hmm. I like the Maxi-BIAB for my high gravity brew. I have a couple Q's (if someone doesn't mind answering them again cause they probably are somewhere):

Should I plan on doing the mash and 2 sparges? or should I check my gravity after the first?

Should the sparges lower or raise the gravity? or is this not a concern because the goal is to remove more of the required sugars and colors?

Why are we worried about the temp of the sparge water? The forum link did not seem to be concerned.

Notes on the calculator excel: I did notice that when I played with the volume of sparge water, it screwed up my grain bill kg and I had to reenter that. Is this a common occurrence? I like it though - coming from a person who uses excel for tracking performance of many of the students I teach but has not gotten into heavy programming. (Maybe this summer...)
olafphysics

Chicago, IL

Post #6 made 14 years ago
by hashie
olafphysics, I don't do maxi BIAB, but I will try and answer some of your questions.

We worry about the temperature of sparge water because we want to release as much sugar (maltose) from the grain as possible.
Traditional 3v brewers use the sparge as a mashout, so they are trying to raise the temperature of the grain to ~77°c. You should be trying to achieve the same with maxi BIAB.

It's difficult to answer whether a sparge will raise or lower the gravity because there are too many variables (how much sparge water, your liquor to grist ratio of the mash etc.). However the more you sparge the lower the gravity of the wort released from the grain (runnings) will become.

Your other questions I will leave for someone else :)

Cheers
"It's beer Jim, but not as we know it."

Post #7 made 14 years ago
by joshua
Good Day olafphysics, I have done MAXI-BIAB to see if a sparge does anything. I first squeeze the &%$) out of the bag, then I have rinse the grains by dunk sparge for 6-7 minutes put the water in the kettle and then dunked it again.
With out sparge..Full volume batch was 1.050 S.G, With 1 sparge I got 1.054 S.G., and with 2 sparges 1.056 S.G., so I haven't determined if it is worthwhile. But on High gravity it may be.
Honest Officer, I swear to Drunk, I am Not God.
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From United States of America

Post #8 made 14 years ago
by lambert
Hi olafphysics,
I'm have done a couple of stovetop maxi-biabs. Here are some of my observations - hope it helps!
olafphysics wrote: Should I plan on doing the mash and 2 sparges? or should I check my gravity after the first?
I made a John Palmer Victory & Chaos IPA the past weekend - the recipe is available here. It's a high-ish gravity beer at 1.062. I made a 13 liter brewlength in my 15 liter stockpot. After pulling the bag I had 6.8 liters of wort at 1.100. I thought that it was rather impressive until I noticed that the calculated mashout efficiency was 51.7%! I've then done 2 sparges of around 5 liters each. I measured the gravity of the second sparge and it was a very decent 1.036 (wort of this gravity is good enough for a session bitter IMHO?!). Oh Liquor to Grain Ratio was 2.68L/Kg.
I the past I've normally done the first sparge as per the guide and the second sparge was a half-arsed "one or two kettles of boiling water over the bag/grains and squeeze like hell" affair. This provided me with enough liquid to do the top-ups before and during the boil and also got me close enough to my target gravity. The lowest Liquor to Grain Ratio on prior brews was 3.50L/Kg.

So, my (novice) answer to your question would be that a second sparge is more beneficial the lower your Liquor to Grain Ratio is. I'm sure some of the old hands on the site would be able to provide better answers.
olafphysics wrote: Why are we worried about the temp of the sparge water? The forum link did not seem to be concerned.
I was also rather puzzled about the apparent lack of concern for temperatures in the sparge section of the maxi biab. I did, however, find the answer hidden in one of the topics and I'll "copy" it from memory:
After boiling your sparge water, dumping it into a bucket, then pulling your grain bag from from the initial mash and dumping it into the sparge bucket (and stirring it a bit) you will find that is rather close to "typical" mashout temperatures.
I did measure it once and if I recall correctly the temperature was 76C!

Cheers,
lambert
Last edited by lambert on 03 Feb 2012, 23:16, edited 3 times in total.
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Post #9 made 14 years ago
by joshua
Good Day Lambert, If I was in a perfect world, 172f/76c is the mashout AND Sparge water temperature. But, I only have one good thermometer and it's in the Mash Kettle.
I have to boil the sparge water to rid it of Clorine, so I am lucky to have the sparge water below 176F/76C at first sparge, and somewhere around 160F for the second sparge.
I have not seen much difference if the sparge water is less 20F below 172F/76C, more and it takes longer to rinse the grains.
Honest Officer, I swear to Drunk, I am Not God.
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From United States of America

Post #10 made 14 years ago
by olafphysics
Here is how my semi-Maxi-BIAB went:

I started with 3 gal (11+ L) of hot H2O and added my 15.5 lb (7kg) slowly adding another 2 3/4 gal along the way & at the end to keep the mash wet enough for me to add more grain and to top off my pot at the end.

After a 60 min rest, I pulled the bag (gravity = 1.088), gave a small squeeze, placed it in a bucket, opened the bag and poured 1 gal of hot sparge H2O over it letting it sit 15 min stirring regularly. I had 4 gal of H2O left in my pot at this point.

After the 15 min, I pulled the bag and have a good long squeeze getting as much liquid out as I could and added that to my pot bringing it just over 6 gal (my preboil volume goal) (gravity = 1.080). I set the grain bag on a strainer and got about 1/4 gal more over the next 20 min or so while my boil started.

So, I only ended up doing one sparge because of volume and my gravity lowered but I was able to easy hit my target volume and target preboil gravity and subsequent fermentation SG (1.088).

Thank for the recommendations. I don't have pictures of the mess I made because my wife was gone for the day :) I can say that I am glad I keep a bucket of sanitizer around when brewing for quick cleans.
olafphysics

Chicago, IL

Post #11 made 14 years ago
by joshua
Good Day Olafphysics, Well done, you have done a Maxi-BAIB very good! Let us know how it finishes.
Honest Officer, I swear to Drunk, I am Not God.
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From United States of America

Post #12 made 14 years ago
by stux
The sparge runnings will always be lower gravity than the initial runnings. Essentially you are diluting the absorbed initial runnings with plain water.

These second and third runnings will then dilute your first runnings.

The key is that you will have more total extract in your kettle so when you boil down to the same volume you will have a higher gravity

Are you referring to the ce calc modifying your grain weight when you change the sparge volume? If so, that's what it's supposed to do :)

It works out how much grain you need to get the amount of wort you want in your fermenter
Fermenting: -
Cubed: -
Stirplate: -
On Tap: NS Summer Ale III (WY1272), Landlord III (WY1469), Fighter's 70/- II (WY1272), Roast Porter (WY1028), Cider, Soda
Next: Munich Helles III

5/7/12

Post #13 made 14 years ago
by olafphysics
stux wrote:Are you referring to the ce calc modifying your grain weight when you change the sparge volume? If so, that's what it's supposed to do :)

It works out how much grain you need to get the amount of wort you want in your fermenter

Yes, but when I adjusted it and went back to a different amount I got an absurd # (something like 100000000). I don't have the excel with me on this computer and HD. I found that I needed to start over after playing and seeing how the excel reacted to my changes. Thanks!
Last edited by olafphysics on 14 Feb 2012, 08:43, edited 3 times in total.
olafphysics

Chicago, IL
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