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Side by side no-chill versus chill experiment.

Post #1 made 14 years ago
by PistolPatch
Due to some kegs I bought with faulty welds, over the next few months, I have to completely empty my keg fridge (half a keg left), buy 8 new kegs (that I trust and fit in my fridge :roll:), re-tube the fridge and then fill the kegs.

Seeing as I have two kettles that can handle a double-batch, recuperating from this keg disaster might allow for some interesting research opportunities for us.

My Previous Practices

I can only temperature control two fermentors at once so previously I have only double-batched in my kettles when I have another brewer around. (This means we each get two single batches to 'take home'.) Any no-chills I have done have been in the kettle overnight (slow-chill) and the next day these would still be at 35 C and need refrigeration before pitching which I did asap. I have never done a 'no-chill' as in cube it and ferment it at a later date so I'll have lots of questions for you I'm sure.

What I'd Like to Do

1. Be able to double-batch in a single kettle my favourite beers so as they are always in stock - one in the keg and another in a cube ready to go when needed.

2. Learn what, if any, adjustments are needed for a no-chill brew.

Will post my first question shortly.

Thanks in advance,
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 18 Dec 2011, 01:01, edited 4 times in total.
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Post #3 made 14 years ago
by PistolPatch
Okay, my first question is...

I can double-batch in one kettle. How do I imitate one 'no-chill' and one 'chilled' batch from the same kettle?

The problem I see here is 'layering' and trub. Denser wort and trub will be at the bottom of any kettle and less dense wort and zero trub will be at the top. I have access to both a syphon and a tap and could theoretically drain half the wort from the bottom and half from the top. In real life, I can see this would be difficult - definitely a PITA.

I should have said in my first post that I normally use an immersion chiller. However I also have a plate chiller. Personally I find a plate chiller a PITA but maybe it might help with our experiment???

If we can't find a way of 'honestly' comparing a 'no-chill' and 'chilled' batch from a single large kettle, this means we are limited to doing two single side by sides and I'm not sure I am prepared to go that far at this stage. I really want to fill my fridge asap :lol:.
Last edited by PistolPatch on 18 Dec 2011, 01:18, edited 4 times in total.
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Post #5 made 14 years ago
by thughes
Lylo wrote:Why not whirlpool real good then syphon to a cube then chill as usual.I think there are few of us who let the trub settle out in the cube.
I am inclined to say just stir it up really good and then drain half into a cube without whirl-pooling or waiting for trub to settle. Then chill the remaining half in the kettle as if it were just a standard 5 gallon batch.

My method for no-chill is to simply dump the entire contents of the kettle straight into the cube immediately after I shut the boil off and let the beer gods settle the trub out in the cube. When I am ready, I siphon/drain the cleared wort into the FV.

I do use irish moss in the last 10 minutes of the boil but have always done that regardless of using my chiller or the cube.
Last edited by thughes on 18 Dec 2011, 01:38, edited 4 times in total.
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Post #7 made 14 years ago
by PistolPatch
You do realise that I am going to pick every hole in this experiment before I do it :lol:.

I couldn't bear brewing/recording/setting up tastings etc only to find someone say, "But he didn't do this." :roll:

Funnily enough, I was just about to say, "You have answered my first question and I thought it was going to be a lot harder."

Unfortunately, I think it still is :angry: ...

Someone could argue, for example, that a chilled wort would have less trub than a chilled wort and they may or may not be right.

As we've seen already in this thread, some guys dump everything into the cube. Other no-chillers may not do this.

What standard do you want to set? Or, do we need to do more side by sides? (No-chill/all-trub, No-chill/no-trub, chilled and trubed or chilled and no trub?)

It's quite ridiculous I know but unless we set some sort of standard, the whole experiment will probably be a waste of time.

:roll:
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 18 Dec 2011, 03:30, edited 4 times in total.
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Post #9 made 14 years ago
by joshua
Good Day, Just MHO, I No-Chill so I don't need to worlpool or perform other hot wort things, it is easy to separate wort for the trub after it has a few hours to settle.
So, that said...Why not try "all Trub" Chilled and No-chilled, it would be a fair way to see any differneces with the beer.
From exeperience I found little if any taste or apperence in the finished beers, but it was a lot easier to do.
Honest Officer, I swear to Drunk, I am Not God.
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Post #10 made 14 years ago
by thughes
PistolPatch wrote:...........Or, do we need to do more side by sides? (No-chill/all-trub, No-chill/no-trub, chilled and trubed or chilled and no trub?)

It's quite ridiculous I know but unless we set some sort of standard, the whole experiment will probably be a waste of time.

:roll:
PP
Well, you did say that you needed to brew a bunch of beer, didn't you? :thumbs:

Tell ya what.....it's 15 degrees (F) here and snowing right now. You send me a plane ticket and I'll bring my rig down there and help you with this experiment (for the next couple of months).
Last edited by thughes on 18 Dec 2011, 06:57, edited 4 times in total.
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Post #11 made 14 years ago
by stux
I whirlpool purely to get the hop debris into the centre if the pot

Then I siphon everything I can into my cube

Over a few days ALL the trub (hot and cold break etc) will settle in the cube

I just pour off the crystal clear wort until it runs a bit cloudy

This means I get very clean relatively small yeast cakes
Fermenting: -
Cubed: -
Stirplate: -
On Tap: NS Summer Ale III (WY1272), Landlord III (WY1469), Fighter's 70/- II (WY1272), Roast Porter (WY1028), Cider, Soda
Next: Munich Helles III

5/7/12

Post #12 made 14 years ago
by stux
My concern with an immersion chiller is you have to wait for the no chill cube to fill up before commencing cooling

With a plate chiller you can cool while filling an NC cube

So, whirlpool, wait a bit

Then fill a fermenter via plate chiller and an NC cube in parallel

Only way to do It fairly i think
Fermenting: -
Cubed: -
Stirplate: -
On Tap: NS Summer Ale III (WY1272), Landlord III (WY1469), Fighter's 70/- II (WY1272), Roast Porter (WY1028), Cider, Soda
Next: Munich Helles III

5/7/12

Post #13 made 14 years ago
by Aces high
stux wrote:My concern with an immersion chiller is you have to wait for the no chill cube to fill up before commencing cooling

With a plate chiller you can cool while filling an NC cube

So, whirlpool, wait a bit

Then fill a fermenter via plate chiller and an NC cube in parallel

Only way to do It fairly i think
following on from stux, if you do 2 double batches you could take the first half from one pot through the plate chiller and the first lot from the other one into the cube, then reverse this on the second half. Possible even mix both chilled then both no chilled together and ferment 2 double lots, if you have the fridge space of course. If you're looking for a dogs body to give you a hand give me a call, im very interested in this, I also have plenty of no chill jerry cans.
Last edited by Aces high on 18 Dec 2011, 08:57, edited 4 times in total.

Post #14 made 14 years ago
by stux
The other trick is to run the ferments as identically as possible.

You can't run them at the same time because you have to start one immediately, and the no-chill one will be at *least* a day later.

Interestingly, i'm not sure if No-chill cubes fully clear in just 24 hrs... i invaribaly end up waiting at least 3-7 days before putting one on.

BTW I just kegged a brew which was in the cube for 9 months!!! and it tastes great :)

Really *smooooth*, wonder if the extended aging in the cube actually had an effect!
Fermenting: -
Cubed: -
Stirplate: -
On Tap: NS Summer Ale III (WY1272), Landlord III (WY1469), Fighter's 70/- II (WY1272), Roast Porter (WY1028), Cider, Soda
Next: Munich Helles III

5/7/12

Post #15 made 14 years ago
by thughes
Stux,

I can attest to the fact that a cube will clear inside of 24 hours, I normally drain into the FV the day after I cube and the wort is perfectly clear.

Also great to hear that I can leave wort in the cube for months and not worry about it, I've been afraid to go more than a couple of weeks.Time to pick up several more cubes and get to brewing! :party:
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Post #16 made 14 years ago
by stux
Commercial Fresh Wort Kits (No Chill cubes made in a brewery) in Australia have a 2 year Best Before date I believe
Fermenting: -
Cubed: -
Stirplate: -
On Tap: NS Summer Ale III (WY1272), Landlord III (WY1469), Fighter's 70/- II (WY1272), Roast Porter (WY1028), Cider, Soda
Next: Munich Helles III

5/7/12

Post #17 made 14 years ago
by shibolet
Pat,
i have never chill my wort. i'v always no-chilled.
I have been thinking that an experiment like this is quit overdue (but i don't have a chiller so i really can't contribute).

with regards to the trub problem, i think that you could either whirlpool, plate chill half and drain the second half into a cube. let it settle in the cube a siphon of the clear wort. that should be close enough.
OR
Not whirlpool and drain the cloudy wort into the chiller and into the cube. that way you will get evenly cloudy wort into both FV.
Cube:
fermenter: Sourdough Spelt Ale, Classic Lambic, Oud Brune, Barrel Aged Belgian Dubbel
Kegs: Bob's Black IPA, Blanc Blond, Soda...
to be brewed:

Post #18 made 14 years ago
by PistolPatch
Thanks for all the help and ideas above. I've just re-read them all so I can have them fresh in my mind as I head out the door for for a long drive. No-trub/trub, long-term/short-term, double batch/quad batch... There's a lot to think on.

If we do a quad, Aces High can hopefully help and take home two of the brews or maybe Todd can take some cubes back to NY :lol:.

I'm not too sure about using the plate chiller any more :think:. I think it would be too slow. In other words, if I drained the kettle simultaneously into cube and fermentor at the same rate, I reckon the no-chill wort would get too cool. Maybe I need to do a test run with boiling water nad the plate chiller to see how fast I can run it?

On the hop side, I was thinking of using a hop sock and pulling it a few minutes after the boil ends to even out the hop differences a bit. Any thoughts on that?

Thanks again!
PP
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Post #19 made 14 years ago
by Squared
I'm thinking no matter what the design is, the taste differences will be marginal at best. However, it will sure be nice to finally put this debate to rest (somewhat).

Standing by on those results! :salute:

Post #20 made 14 years ago
by PistolPatch
Yep, hopefully they will be marginal. Pulling the hop bag out after say 15 minutes might be a good idea.

Still thinking on the whole thing :).

If I do a quad batch (two side by side doubles), it might be interesting to test out stux's latest CE calculator including the sparge calcs. With double batches, I have to hold a bit of liquor back, so I can do an 'active' sparge on one kettle and just top-up the other.

If we do this, we could either keep the two worts separate and then see if we can taste a difference between the two OR, we could mix them together at the end to have two sets of identical worts.

Lots of possibilities!
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Post #22 made 14 years ago
by PistolPatch
Pictures! Of course we'll do pictures thughes :lol:. But, not until I get some more answers :evil:.

Is no-chill gong to be yet another brewing area where no one ever gives enough detail? :roll: :P.

For example, my question above on using a hop sock. Let's look at the following three 'pairs'...

Pair 1. Hop Sock - 'Unpulled' (or no hop sock).

A. Chilling using a CFC or plate chiller - Whirlpooling and then waiting 20 minutes before the chilled transfer.
B. No-chilling - Whirlpooling and waiting 20 minutes before transfer.

Pair 2. Hop Sock - 'Delayed Pull'.

A. Chilling - Pull the sock 5 minutes post-boil.
B. No-chilling - Pull the sock 5 minutes post-boil.

Pair 3. Hop Sock - 'Immediate Pull'.

A. Chilling - Pull the sock immediately and start the chill.
B. No-chilling - Pull the sock immediately and start the transfer.

Of course, there are heaps of other 'pairs' we could think up.

You can see where I'm going though can't you? For me, I am seeing this is a post-boil hop management question rather than a chill versus no-chill question.

:smoke:
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 22 Dec 2011, 19:33, edited 4 times in total.
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Post #23 made 14 years ago
by joshua
Good Day PP, Pair 3 is almost the same way I have tested No-chill. I had nothing to report. I pulled the sock, whirlpooled for 10 minutes, siphoned half into no-chill, then Coil-Chilled the rest.
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Post #24 made 14 years ago
by thughes
I don't sock, I just toss the pellets right into the pot. Have heard the theory that constraining the hops to a sock instead of letting them roll freely throughout the whole volume of liquid may affect hop utilization. I've never tested this as I really don't have an issue managing the hop sludge.

(Uh oh, did I just pose subject matter for another side-by-side test?)
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Post #25 made 14 years ago
by Squared
Hey, to my utter surprise, I had a question that was answered by the Wizard in January 2012 BYO magazine regarding no chill. I asked him what his thoughts are on no chill. All he really said was there was risk of DMS formation afterward and microbiological contamination...Then he said if he was on a desert island he would no chill too :lol:

Was I ever surprised to see my name printed though! :party:
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