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Todd's sour mash experiment

Post #1 made 14 years ago
by thughes
Inspired by this thread and a recent interest in sour beers, I tried my first souring experiment today.

After I finished with my regular brew session, I dumped the grain bag into my old converted cooler MLT. I added 4 gallons of 150 F water and allowed the mash to cool to 120 F over the course of about an hour:
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I then sprinkled in @ 4oz of fresh uncrushed malt:
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covered the mash with a plastic bag (to keep O2 away) and a piece of insulation:
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and wrapped it up nice and snug for a 48 hour nap:
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Currently the mash gravity is 1.015 (I love my refractometer). If this works I will have a bit over 4 gallons of wort which I plan on boiling down to 1.5 gallons (should give me @ 1.039 OG). I'll pop it open Monday night to see whether we have a nice batch of tasty sour mash or a nasty stinking infected mess. Stay tuned........
Last edited by thughes on 23 Oct 2011, 10:08, edited 5 times in total.
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Post #2 made 14 years ago
by thughes
I realized I would not have time Monday night to deal with this so I finished it up today. It did sour slightly (24 hours) so I drained the MLT into a pot, ended up with 3.5 gallons at 1.022. Added 14 grams of hops (FWH) and then boiled it down to 2 gallons. At that point the gravity was only 1.027 so I tossed in 12 oz of light DME and 2 oz of hops. Cooled it down and ended up with 1.75 gallons at 1.052.

Dumped the pot into my old Mr. Beer FV which will now become my sour beer test fermenter. Pitched a pack of rehydrated Notty, we'll see what happens over the course of the next couple of weeks. (I've got the dregs from a Cuvee Rene lambic propagating in a starter right now, maybe I'll pitch those bugs into the mix too.)

boiling it down:
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Mr. Beer rides again:
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Last edited by thughes on 24 Oct 2011, 08:33, edited 5 times in total.
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Post #4 made 14 years ago
by thughes
Update:

The beer did sour, unfortunately at this point it tastes exactly like grapefruit juice. There is also a metallic aftertaste that am hoping will go away with time. So far I am unimpressed, maybe age will make it better. :dunno:
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Post #6 made 14 years ago
by shibolet
Hey Todd,
i guess i missed this tread when it first came up.
I too have been fascinated with sour beers lately and recently completed my first sour mash.
I have a hard time taking photos while brewing though.

Mine was a Berliner Wiesse mash where the entire mash (grain and all) was left for 24 hours to sour. Ended up with around 20L of 1.032 wort. after a short boil it was fermented for 10 days and than force carbed.
I sampled it last night. sort of tangy but not very sour. i too was not very impressed.
maybe i'll try it the traditional way- with some raspberry syrup.
Cube:
fermenter: Sourdough Spelt Ale, Classic Lambic, Oud Brune, Barrel Aged Belgian Dubbel
Kegs: Bob's Black IPA, Blanc Blond, Soda...
to be brewed:

Post #7 made 14 years ago
by shibolet
i poured my Berliner Weisse at the annual BEERS expo in Tel Aviv last week.
It was a big hit among the beer geeks and somewhat with the ordinary drinkers as well.
I will definitely brew this again. It needs a short time to condition and than it's a very nice refreshing beer.
Last edited by shibolet on 17 Jan 2012, 20:34, edited 5 times in total.
Cube:
fermenter: Sourdough Spelt Ale, Classic Lambic, Oud Brune, Barrel Aged Belgian Dubbel
Kegs: Bob's Black IPA, Blanc Blond, Soda...
to be brewed:

Post #8 made 13 years ago
by mally
Hi Todd

Sorry to resurrect an old thread from almost a year ago, but did your brew improve with age?

I am just curious, as this method seems like a cheap & fun way of getting another brew (especially out of used grains).

I think i would like to try it out, but am just concerned about contaminating my regular brewing equipment.
G B
I spent lots of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I squandered
I've stopped drinking, but only when I'm asleep
I ONCE gave up women and alcohol - it was the worst 20 minutes of my life
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From Great Britain

Post #9 made 13 years ago
by shibolet
mally,
there is not contamination risk as the souring is done on the "cold side". after the boil there are no bugs left.

BTW, i'm up to my 4th batch of Berliner Weisse. the first one was a success (beginners luck), the second one went down the drain, the third is just maybe OK, but not sour enough. i hope the 4th will be better.
Cube:
fermenter: Sourdough Spelt Ale, Classic Lambic, Oud Brune, Barrel Aged Belgian Dubbel
Kegs: Bob's Black IPA, Blanc Blond, Soda...
to be brewed:

Post #10 made 13 years ago
by mally
Thanks Shibolet;

I have picked up your recipe for this from another thread, but i notice you (and others) are using wheat malt. Is this for recreating berliner weisse flavours/style? or is it essential for the souring process?

I am planning an oktoberfest all munich soon, and would maybe try this souring experiment with the spent grains (partigyle), but i dont have any wheat malt (i do have crystal wheat though).

My plan is to re-mash the spent grains with another 1kg of malt (and maybe a 0.5kg of crystal wheat). This should hopefully get the gravity up a little. Place in a cooler at 40-50 c and sprinkle some fresh grain on top and leave for required time. Continue as normal.

Could you see this recipe working?
G B
I spent lots of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I squandered
I've stopped drinking, but only when I'm asleep
I ONCE gave up women and alcohol - it was the worst 20 minutes of my life
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From Great Britain

Post #11 made 13 years ago
by shibolet
hey Mally,
the wheat is for the authentic berliner weisse style. if you're just trying to sour a mash for the sake of reusing spent grain and having a go at it your plan and recipe look fine.
Cube:
fermenter: Sourdough Spelt Ale, Classic Lambic, Oud Brune, Barrel Aged Belgian Dubbel
Kegs: Bob's Black IPA, Blanc Blond, Soda...
to be brewed:

Post #12 made 13 years ago
by thughes
Follow up for Mally:
This never did get any better, has a weird metallic taste to it and a bunch of floaties in each bottle. I've got 8 bottles left so I'm just going to continue to let them sit (although I don't hold out any hope for improvement).

---Todd
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Post #13 made 13 years ago
by mally
Thanks for the feedback guys;
i guess this souring idea is more miss than hit :scratch:

Still, if i am going to throw the grains away, I may as well give it a try. :smoke:
G B
I spent lots of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I squandered
I've stopped drinking, but only when I'm asleep
I ONCE gave up women and alcohol - it was the worst 20 minutes of my life
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From Great Britain

Post #14 made 13 years ago
by shibolet
so my last soured BW have been small 10L stovetop batches.
also, i attended a talk at NHC in June on BW brewing. it was great and the samples where amazing. those, however, were brewed with Lacto added to the fermentation and not by sour mashing. anyway, i picked the guys brain a bit and he recommended that instead of souring the whole mash, it's better to sparge and than just sour the wort. also, he suggested that the fresh grains added for souring should be acid malt (which has a large amount of Lacto already on it). so that's what i did for batch #3 and #4.
Cube:
fermenter: Sourdough Spelt Ale, Classic Lambic, Oud Brune, Barrel Aged Belgian Dubbel
Kegs: Bob's Black IPA, Blanc Blond, Soda...
to be brewed:

Post #15 made 13 years ago
by mally
That's interesting Shibolet, as i have some acidulated malt already that i use for pilsners.

I just checked on their website (weyermann) and found this about their acid malt that somebody had already asked;

Berliner Weisse from Weyermann Acidulated Malt

Question

I am planning on making a Berliner Weisse style beer at our brewpub. I am considering replacing the lactobacillus fermentation with acidulated malt...is this feasable? I am not too familiar with the product. I have read that usage should not exceed 10% of the malt bill. The Berliner Weisse typically has a pH of 3.2-3.4.

My question is, would using acidulated malt to achieve the flavor profile of a Berliner Weisse negatively affect the fermentation of the beer, and how much would I need to use in order to achieve that nice sour, acidic bite that is present in the beera?

I appreciate your time and any suggestions that you might have on the matter. Keep up the good work...I find all of your products to be superb!

Answer Weyermann Acidulated Malt is perfect to adjust the pH level in mash or wort. There is a simple formula to calculate the dosage of Acidulated Malt: You have to use 1% of Acidulated malt to reduce the pH by 0.1. (Example: 3% Acidulated malt reduce the pH leve in mash by 0.3).

The exact effect depends of course on the special conditions in the mash or wort (buffering capacity …) and on the composition of the brew water.

Weyermann Acidulated Malt is produced by using lactic acid, which is generated by on grain natural occurring lactic bacteria. Therefore Acidulated Malt is also a wonderful possibility to produce beer styles with a typical “sourish” character like “Berliner Weisse”.

To reach the “sourish” character 8% of Acidulated malt are a perfect rate. In my recipe there are also recommendations for Fermentis Yeast strains for an authentic aroma and flavour profile.

Malt bill for "Berliner Weisse"

40% Weyermann Pilsner Malt
45% Weyermann Wheat Malt Pale
7 % Weyermann Carahell®
8 % Weyermann Acidulated Malt"

So it looks like this is the best way for me to try it out. Do you know why it was recommended to remove the grains for souring?
Last edited by mally on 31 Oct 2012, 21:52, edited 5 times in total.
G B
I spent lots of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I squandered
I've stopped drinking, but only when I'm asleep
I ONCE gave up women and alcohol - it was the worst 20 minutes of my life
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From Great Britain

Post #16 made 13 years ago
by shibolet
i don't think Weyermann where actually referring to a sour mash but rather to a normal mash with lots if acid malt.
i also don't think that 8% acid malt will make your beer sour at all.

use the spent grain from your Octoberfest, remash with another 1kg of malt and collect a wort of around 1.030 - 1.035 gravity. (i than heat the wort up to 85C and let it sit for 15 minutes to kill off most of the bugs than cool back to around 45C)
than add some acid malt in a hop bag (i used 100gr for a 10L batch).
now here are 2 important things:
1. keep oxygen out as best you can. i flush with CO2, but you can try covering the liquid with foil or plastic wrap.
2. keep the sour wort warm. it works best in the 30-40C range.
hold it for 24-48 hours. i left it for 4 days ('couse i forgot about it...) but it doesn't seem to be too sour (it may not be sour enough)
Cube:
fermenter: Sourdough Spelt Ale, Classic Lambic, Oud Brune, Barrel Aged Belgian Dubbel
Kegs: Bob's Black IPA, Blanc Blond, Soda...
to be brewed:
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