Guys,
I've done one BIAB(my first AG) brew and I'm definitely sticking with this method. I used my 33litre plastic boiler with an extra kettle element installed. Its a bit small to do full volume 23litre brew so I want to get something more suitable. From the calculator it looks to me like a 45 or 50litre vessel would be ideal. My boil off was much less than the calculator suggested. More like 2.5litres per hour(kinda damp here in Ireland). I see EoinMag has had similar experience. Anyway, 45 litres looks like a perfect size but I'll probably have to buy a 50litre. I'll be installing 2 kettle elements. I have the following questions about boiler choice:
1. I assume that a plastic boiler would retain temperature much better than SS or aluminium but I'd like a more solid vessel(SS or aluminium) for safety. Do other people have to do much extra lagging on metal vessels to account for heat loss or am I wrong?
2. Is empty head space in bigger boilers an issue for heat loss. i.e. a 50litre boiler thats filled to about 42litres full mash volume, does the 8litres of empty space impact heat retention in any significant way?
3. If I buy SS do I need to get a fabrication shop to cut the holes for the tap and kettle elements or is there some sort of hole saw that I can do this easily with? I can imagine SS is very hard to cut?Also, I'm guessing aluminium is much easier to cut, or am I wrong about that too?
Thanks
L
Post #2 made 14 years ago
Hi Lars,
Aluminium is a lot easier than Stainless to cut & drill. Step drills are quite good at cutting through stainless steel. Run them at slow speed with plenty of lubracation. I've also cut shapes out of thin stainless using a jigsaw with a metal blade (although this is slow and makes horrible noises).
If you're going electric then insulation around the pot will definitely help keeping the temp steadier, even if its just some towels that you wrap around the pot after you dough in. BIAB seems to hold heat better than a mash tun set up because you have more heated liquid in the pot, so more thermal mass, but some type of insulation during mashing is required, especially if its cold weather where you are.
Extra head space is great when you're doing your boil as your less likely to get a boil over when adding your hops. Extra head space may cause you to lose a bit of heat during the mash, but you can always get a piece of styrafoam that will fit into the pot and float ontop of your mash to keep them heat in.
I haven't used plastic boilers before so I can't comment too much on them, but I would think they would hold heat pretty well. Im gathering that the ones your using are HPDE polypropylene type plastic.
Aluminium is a lot easier than Stainless to cut & drill. Step drills are quite good at cutting through stainless steel. Run them at slow speed with plenty of lubracation. I've also cut shapes out of thin stainless using a jigsaw with a metal blade (although this is slow and makes horrible noises).
If you're going electric then insulation around the pot will definitely help keeping the temp steadier, even if its just some towels that you wrap around the pot after you dough in. BIAB seems to hold heat better than a mash tun set up because you have more heated liquid in the pot, so more thermal mass, but some type of insulation during mashing is required, especially if its cold weather where you are.
Extra head space is great when you're doing your boil as your less likely to get a boil over when adding your hops. Extra head space may cause you to lose a bit of heat during the mash, but you can always get a piece of styrafoam that will fit into the pot and float ontop of your mash to keep them heat in.
I haven't used plastic boilers before so I can't comment too much on them, but I would think they would hold heat pretty well. Im gathering that the ones your using are HPDE polypropylene type plastic.
Post #3 made 14 years ago
Thanks AH. I'm starting to think it might be best to get the holes cut for me. Wouldn't imagine it being too expensive an the saw/bit would probably set me back €20 anyway. The plastic one is food grade. I think they're designed as fermentors. Think I'll buy a 50 litre as stockpot when upgrading.
Thanks
L
Thanks
L
Post #4 made 14 years ago
Hi there Lars,
Stainless steel is not that hard to drill although as AH quite rightly says aluminium is easier. All you need is a holesaw of the correct diameter for the hole size you want. Just drill slowly and preferably use a spray bottle to feed water onto the holesaw or a sponge soaked in water to keep the holesaw cool. [Edit: Use a thin oil not water - see stux's post below]. It will take less than two minutes to drill so no biggie there. Aluminium will be about thirty seconds.
Don't drill a hole for a tap because taps are bad
. (Search for my rants on ball-valves 
)
BIAB is heaps easier to maintain mash temperature than any other system unless you consider employing and maintaining a pump system to be easier
. Most BIABrewers would not need lagging - the occasional application of heat and stirring is fine in most ambient temperatures.
BTW, instead of drilling through your pot, have you considered gas instead of electric? Gas is a bit easier to control.
50 L is great for a single batch size. 70 L is another size worth considering. It gives you the ability to double batch with a bit of concentration and no penalties that can't be corrected for on a single batch.
Extra head space is not an issue on heat loss assuming you put a lid on your kettle which you will. The issue is heat loss through the lid. AH mentioned styrafoam. This should be put on top of the lid, not on top of the wort or mash as plastics and beer don't mix well at all.
As for a plastic boiler retaining heat better than a metal kettle, this would be true if the same weight of plastic was used however the thickness of a plastic boiler versus a metal boiler makes this issue not even worth worrying about. There would be hardly any difference - the metal would actually probably fare better.
I think you are always better off using a metal boiler and silicone transfer hoses when you can.
And, of course, no taps
PP
Stainless steel is not that hard to drill although as AH quite rightly says aluminium is easier. All you need is a holesaw of the correct diameter for the hole size you want. Just drill slowly and preferably use a spray bottle to feed water onto the holesaw or a sponge soaked in water to keep the holesaw cool. [Edit: Use a thin oil not water - see stux's post below]. It will take less than two minutes to drill so no biggie there. Aluminium will be about thirty seconds.
Don't drill a hole for a tap because taps are bad
. (Search for my rants on ball-valves )BIAB is heaps easier to maintain mash temperature than any other system unless you consider employing and maintaining a pump system to be easier
. Most BIABrewers would not need lagging - the occasional application of heat and stirring is fine in most ambient temperatures.BTW, instead of drilling through your pot, have you considered gas instead of electric? Gas is a bit easier to control.
50 L is great for a single batch size. 70 L is another size worth considering. It gives you the ability to double batch with a bit of concentration and no penalties that can't be corrected for on a single batch.
Extra head space is not an issue on heat loss assuming you put a lid on your kettle which you will. The issue is heat loss through the lid. AH mentioned styrafoam. This should be put on top of the lid, not on top of the wort or mash as plastics and beer don't mix well at all.
As for a plastic boiler retaining heat better than a metal kettle, this would be true if the same weight of plastic was used however the thickness of a plastic boiler versus a metal boiler makes this issue not even worth worrying about. There would be hardly any difference - the metal would actually probably fare better.
I think you are always better off using a metal boiler and silicone transfer hoses when you can.
And, of course, no taps
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 16 Sep 2011, 05:33, edited 1 time in total.
If you have found the above or anything else of value on BIABrewer.info, consider supporting us by getting some BIPs!
-
- SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From Australia
-
Post #5 made 14 years ago
Thanks PP, I'm not 100% convinced on the tap though! I like having a tap, mine is a crappy plastic one thats very easy to dismantle and sanitize. I'm back to drilling the SS myself, must look around for suitable hole saws/bits. I'm thinking of this pot http://themaltmiller.co.uk/index.php?_a ... ductId=192 and at that price its got to be made of fairly light SS so easy enough to drill.
Not ready to invest in gas just yet, kind of like the electric setup..
Thanks again
L
Not ready to invest in gas just yet, kind of like the electric setup..
Thanks again
L
Post #6 made 14 years ago
Hi Lars
Those pots from the Malt Miller look good and seem good value, I paid £50 fo an aluminium 50L pot.
As for drilling go for the best hole saw you can afford. I'm assumimg your in the UK, if so try to get a Starrett brand hole saw.http://www.neweysonline.co.uk/starrett/ ... ch.raction These are top drawer and can be obtained cheaper from Electrical wholesalers and Plumbers merchants. If you know someone in the trade they will be able to get a good discount, if you are buying yourself don't be afraid to ask for a discount as they will often oblige. (PM me if you are stuck and I'll sort one for you).
As to drilling follow PP's advice and drill slowly, use a block of wood behind the hole,don't push too hard and watch the swarf coming off the drill and the hole you are drilling, try and prevent it from turning blue/black with the heat, when this happen with stainless steel it actually makes the steel harder to cut.
Yeasty
Those pots from the Malt Miller look good and seem good value, I paid £50 fo an aluminium 50L pot.
As for drilling go for the best hole saw you can afford. I'm assumimg your in the UK, if so try to get a Starrett brand hole saw.http://www.neweysonline.co.uk/starrett/ ... ch.raction These are top drawer and can be obtained cheaper from Electrical wholesalers and Plumbers merchants. If you know someone in the trade they will be able to get a good discount, if you are buying yourself don't be afraid to ask for a discount as they will often oblige. (PM me if you are stuck and I'll sort one for you).
As to drilling follow PP's advice and drill slowly, use a block of wood behind the hole,don't push too hard and watch the swarf coming off the drill and the hole you are drilling, try and prevent it from turning blue/black with the heat, when this happen with stainless steel it actually makes the steel harder to cut.
Yeasty
Last edited by Yeasty on 15 Sep 2011, 03:30, edited 5 times in total.
Why is everyone talking about "Cheese"
-
- SVA Brewer With Over 50 Brews From Great Britain
-
Post #7 made 14 years ago
Yep, PP is correct, styrafoam in the mash is not good. I forgot to mention that i have it wrapped in aluminium foil, so the styrafoam doesn't directly touch the mash.Lars wrote:Extra head space is not an issue on heat loss assuming you put a lid on your kettle which you will. The issue is heat loss through the lid. AH mentioned styrafoam. This should be put on top of the lid, not on top of the wort or mash as plastics and beer don't mix well at a
Last edited by Aces high on 15 Sep 2011, 08:29, edited 5 times in total.
Post #8 made 14 years ago
You can use WD-40 as a drill lubricant
Fermenting: -
Cubed: -
Stirplate: -
On Tap: NS Summer Ale III (WY1272), Landlord III (WY1469), Fighter's 70/- II (WY1272), Roast Porter (WY1028), Cider, Soda
Next: Munich Helles III
5/7/12
Cubed: -
Stirplate: -
On Tap: NS Summer Ale III (WY1272), Landlord III (WY1469), Fighter's 70/- II (WY1272), Roast Porter (WY1028), Cider, Soda
Next: Munich Helles III
5/7/12
Post #9 made 14 years ago
Thanks Guys! I'm in Ireland Yeasty so I can but those from Ebay. This one here looks right http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Starrett-Dual ... 1e615806b9
Whats the difference between constant pitch and dual pitch, I see it in their descriptions? Also what sort of bit do I need?
Thanks
L
Whats the difference between constant pitch and dual pitch, I see it in their descriptions? Also what sort of bit do I need?
Thanks
L
Post #10 made 14 years ago
This means the saws teeth are set at two different angles, its supposed to make for better cutting. Don't forget you will need whats called an "Arbour" for the hole saw. I'd PM the ebay seller and ask him if he can supply the hole saw in the size you want complete with an arbour as they come in two sizes.Lars wrote:Whats the difference between constant pitch and dual pitch, I see it in their descriptions? Also what sort of bit do I need?
For holes up to and including 30mm its an A1 arbor, for 32mm to 210mm its an A2 arbor.
Yeasty
Last edited by Yeasty on 16 Sep 2011, 00:55, edited 5 times in total.
Why is everyone talking about "Cheese"
-
- SVA Brewer With Over 50 Brews From Great Britain
-
Post #11 made 14 years ago
Lars, use a light oil as stux says, not water! (I spent Monday drilling porcelain tiles, so had water on my brain when I wrote my last poststux wrote:You can use WD-40 as a drill lubricant
. The rest is correct.) Thanks stux!
Last edited by PistolPatch on 16 Sep 2011, 05:32, edited 5 times in total.
If you have found the above or anything else of value on BIABrewer.info, consider supporting us by getting some BIPs!
-
- SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From Australia
-
Post #12 made 14 years ago
what size hole are you trying to drill? Unless its a very large one you'd be better off with a step drill over that style in your link. Also the arbours are quite expensive usually (well mine are) you might pick up one cheaper on ebay
Dual pitch refers to the fact that some of the teeth are angled slightly inwards towards the centre and the others are almost straight up. It just gives a more aggressive cutting pattern.
Dual pitch refers to the fact that some of the teeth are angled slightly inwards towards the centre and the others are almost straight up. It just gives a more aggressive cutting pattern.
Post #13 made 14 years ago
AH, I think its 38mm for a standard kettle element here. I see the arbor is dearer than the holesaw when bought seperately but heres the two together for 17stg http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Starrett-38-m ... 29fbf5e68d
PistolPatch, see this animation on how a ball valve is put together http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txDANNh4_ME
Is this the type of ball valve that you hate
I dont quite understand how this traps liquid causing infections(not that I doubt you as I've read some of your other posts and other users responses on this). Or are the problematic ball valves more like this one that I have http://www.thehomebrewcompany.ie/index. ... ts_id=1109 . Having taken this apart a few times(which is easily done) I can see how it might trap liquid above the ball, but w.r.t. a proper(plumbing) ball valve like in the animation, I dont see where the liquid gets trapped. I'm assuming that the unit that fixes into the ball and rotates it is sealed from the liquid completely or the ball valve would be an ineffective seal. Please enlighten me 
Thanks
L
PistolPatch, see this animation on how a ball valve is put together http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txDANNh4_ME
Is this the type of ball valve that you hate
I dont quite understand how this traps liquid causing infections(not that I doubt you as I've read some of your other posts and other users responses on this). Or are the problematic ball valves more like this one that I have http://www.thehomebrewcompany.ie/index. ... ts_id=1109 . Having taken this apart a few times(which is easily done) I can see how it might trap liquid above the ball, but w.r.t. a proper(plumbing) ball valve like in the animation, I dont see where the liquid gets trapped. I'm assuming that the unit that fixes into the ball and rotates it is sealed from the liquid completely or the ball valve would be an ineffective seal. Please enlighten me Thanks
L
Post #14 made 14 years ago
Hi there Lars,
Sorry about the slow reply. The first ball-valves (the one with the animation) are the ones I am talking about. The problem is that the ball is inside a cylinder not another sphere which isn't apparent in the animation. (It's easier to see when you break a valve apart for yourself in real life.) This results in a dead space with little liquid movement.
There is no problem using a ball-valve as long as you are aware of the potential sanitisation problem (that they have a dead space) and the myth (that the boil will sanitise this dead space - they rarely reach a high enough temperature to sanitise.)
So, before each brew, do the nostril test. Shove one end of a hose on the valve and the other end up your nostril. Open and close the valve a few times while smelling the hose. If it smells then you need to pull your tap apart which takes time*.
For this reason, I prefer to use a syphon and silicone hose. (wiz78 made me a SS auto-syphon so this is perfect!) For me it is easier to clean and control. If I no-chilled and couldn't get hold of a stainless steel auto-syphon, then I'd probably go the ball-valve instead.
*The other problem with ball-valves, especially the weldless ones is that getting them to seal can be a bastard. Often you can put the whole thing together, with teflon tape and then find it starts to leak - often just as you approach mash temperatures
.
So, make sure you think on all these things before drilling holes for a tap. Maybe try a syphon set-up for a while first if you can.
Cheers,
PP
P.S. The second valve you mentioned, the plastic one, is usually used on a fermenter. They are really easy to pull apart so pose no cleaning and sanitisation problems.
Sorry about the slow reply. The first ball-valves (the one with the animation) are the ones I am talking about. The problem is that the ball is inside a cylinder not another sphere which isn't apparent in the animation. (It's easier to see when you break a valve apart for yourself in real life.) This results in a dead space with little liquid movement.
There is no problem using a ball-valve as long as you are aware of the potential sanitisation problem (that they have a dead space) and the myth (that the boil will sanitise this dead space - they rarely reach a high enough temperature to sanitise.)
So, before each brew, do the nostril test. Shove one end of a hose on the valve and the other end up your nostril. Open and close the valve a few times while smelling the hose. If it smells then you need to pull your tap apart which takes time*.
For this reason, I prefer to use a syphon and silicone hose. (wiz78 made me a SS auto-syphon so this is perfect!) For me it is easier to clean and control. If I no-chilled and couldn't get hold of a stainless steel auto-syphon, then I'd probably go the ball-valve instead.
*The other problem with ball-valves, especially the weldless ones is that getting them to seal can be a bastard. Often you can put the whole thing together, with teflon tape and then find it starts to leak - often just as you approach mash temperatures
.So, make sure you think on all these things before drilling holes for a tap. Maybe try a syphon set-up for a while first if you can.
Cheers,
PP
P.S. The second valve you mentioned, the plastic one, is usually used on a fermenter. They are really easy to pull apart so pose no cleaning and sanitisation problems.
Last edited by PistolPatch on 18 Sep 2011, 14:11, edited 5 times in total.
If you have found the above or anything else of value on BIABrewer.info, consider supporting us by getting some BIPs!
-
- SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From Australia
-
Post #15 made 14 years ago
Thanks PP, I was considering transferring the crappy plastic one over from my plastic boiler when I invest in the SS setup. You've given me something to think about . Ill be using plastic for a few more brews so I can mull over it in the meantime.
Thanks
L
Thanks
L
