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Schwarzbier (Lager) or "Black Beer" (Ale)

Post #1 made 15 years ago
by PistolPatch
OVERVIEW

Style: Schwarzbier. This recipe can be brewed equally as well as a lager or an ale.
Name:
Yeast: If brewing as a lager use Saflager S23 (or a German or Bohemian liquid equivalent). If brewing as an ale use US-056.
Original Gravity: The Calculator = 1.048
Total IBU's: The Calculator = 23.2 IBU's
Colour (EBC):
Efficiency at End of Boil: 79%
Mash Length (mins): 90
Boil Length (mins): 90
Your Vessel Type (Pot/Keggle/Urn): Pot
Source/Credits: Various
Notes/Instructions/Comments: If fermenting with US-56, ferment on the low side of 16 C to 18C. Brewed as an ale, this beer can be fermented and ready for consumption in a very short time.

Volumes etc.

Your Vessel Volume (L or gal): 70
Your Vessel Diameter (cm or in): 45
Water Required (L or gal): 40.41 L
Mash Temperature (C or F): 66 C
Volume at End of Boil (L or gal): 26.84 L
Volume into Fermenter (L or gal): 23 L
Brew Length (L or gal): 21.3 L
Total Grain Bill (g or oz): 5356 g

Grains - Colours - Percentages and/or Weight (g or oz)

Grain 1: Munich 1 = 3000 g
Grain 2: Weyermann Pilsner Malt = 1900 g
Grain 3: Chocolate Malt = 200 g
Grain 4: CaraMalt = 150 g
Grain 5: Carafa = 100 g
Grain 6: Roasted Barley 100 g

Hops - AA% - IBUs - Weight (g or oz) at Minutes

(IBU's below are as according to The Calculator)

Hop 1: Hallertau - 4.0% - 16.5 IBU - 45 g at 80 min
Hop 2: Hallertau - 4.0% - 6.3 IBU - 30 g at 20 min
Hop 3: Hallertau - 4.0% - 0.3 IBU - 20 g at 1 min

Adjuncts/Minerals/Finings etc

Adjunct:
Mineral:
Finings:

Calculator file below added 29 Sep 2012 (Prior downloads 43)
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Last edited by PistolPatch on 28 Dec 2010, 20:36, edited 6 times in total.
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Post #2 made 14 years ago
by Ralph
PP, in another thread you mention the Perth Royal Show- how do the judges stack up at these events? I'd be interested to see how this recipe goes in competition- IMO the purists may ping it for too much of the roasted character, however there seems to be some consensus (perhaps more amongst the industry players) that many judges haven't actually sampled a fair dinkum Schwartzbier and while the big roasty character may be nice and contribute to a fantastic beer, it isn't supposed to be overtly so, and burnt character is definitely out of style. The suggestion is that the Schwartzbier is supposed to be a black pils, nothing like a porter or stout.

Anyway, I'm doing one myself today, will be the first of several in prep for comps:
33% Bo Pils
57% Munich II
3.7% T3
2.5% T1
2.5% Dark Caramalt
1.5% Wheat Caramel
64C Mash with dark malts only added at mashout, 90 minute boil
15 IBU Hallertauer Mittelfreuh FWH
5 IBU Hallertauer Mittelfreuh 60 minutes
8 IBU Tettnanger 15 minutes
Ferment at 10- 12C with 2247PC, lager for a bit
28 IBU, OG 1.049, FG 1.011, ABV 4.9%, 24.8SRM/64.4EBC
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Post #3 made 14 years ago
by PistolPatch
Didn't get pinged on roastiness last time I put this in so all should be good. As you say, a mild roastiness is one of the main features of this beer. Whoever says it should be a black pils is a bit off the mark I reckon! Got a bronze on this one last time even though it had that metallic flavour from the dodgy keg I have told you about.

Had to dodgy up my hop bill today as I ran out of Hersbrucker as well as the other things I mentioned in the other thread :lol:.

Good luck today Ralph! I'd comment on your recipe if I had recipe skills but I don't!

Cheers
PP
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Post #4 made 14 years ago
by Ralph
Yeah, spot on PP! I'm grabbing a few at which ever bottleo has them- not the sort of beer I'm familiar with...
Good luck with yours, you'll have to be snappy! At least the ale variant makes life soooo much easier and not to mention quicker.
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Post #5 made 14 years ago
by PistolPatch
Swartz is a great beer. Really interesting and complex but not heavy. My brewing patterns have been poor for the last year so I haven't had all my kegs full in ages. This beer is always on tap when I do.

The quickest I ever brewed this as an ale was ten days from pitching to keg :o and even then it was a great drink. I am going to have to rush this batch too to have it ready in time. Uh oh!
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Post #6 made 14 years ago
by paulbigelow
PistolPatch wrote:Swartz is a great beer. Really interesting and complex but not heavy.
I think this is one of those styles where everyone has slightly differing opinions on what it should taste like. To me, Köstritzer defines the Schwarzbier style. It's less roasty and more malty than your recipe.

When I made this recipe, I wasn't paying enough attention to the grains that I was ordering, and got American pilsner malt, instead of continental. I'm assuming that's what lost any malt flavour, and produced a mostly one-note roasty beer. However I had some ordinary bitter left over that didn't fit into a keg, and I experimented with blending a little of that in. It turned out perfect. Makes me wonder how often beer would actually benefit from blending, beyond the the traditional Black and Tan.

Thanks for posting your recipe. It was my first lager, and a great learning experience.
Last edited by paulbigelow on 09 Jun 2011, 04:55, edited 5 times in total.

Post #7 made 14 years ago
by PistolPatch
You are right Paul. This version of the recipe is too 'one-note' roasty. Maybe hashie or Ralph can tell us what should be changed. Only brewed the above version a few weeks ago and was disappointed in that roastiness.

Blending can be fun! Good on you Paul!
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Post #9 made 14 years ago
by Ralph
I'm with hashie. Also, a mix of Carafa I and III might help with complexity, if you have them- I seldom use one on its own nowadays. Mind you, ask that after QABC* and see how it floats! :o
I'd actually drop the Roast Barley and increase Carafa Tx too, I know it may seem counter-intuitive but I suspect that RB may become dominant.
My 2c, hope it helps!

* QABC- that's the State comp here in sunny Queensland. I'll be entering a Schwartzbier like the recipe above.
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Post #10 made 14 years ago
by PistolPatch
Thanks hashie and Ralph. This is weird, looked up my notes and I've always used the roasted barley before and in this amount but it has never taken over like this. Bugger! Unless paul had posted above, I would be thinking I must have made a weighing error at crushing on this batch.

Do you think halving the amount would be another option? What I like about this beer is being able to taste the coffee, chocolate and roasty subtle tones.

:scratch:
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Post #11 made 14 years ago
by PistolPatch
I've just added a 'The Calculator' attachment to the first post and I have left the original 100 g of roasted barley as is for now as it has scored a silver both times it has been thrown into a comp.

On the last brew, I tried adding the specialty grains at mashout as per hashie's suggestion. I wonder if this increased their 'presence'? Or maybe I just made a weighing error? I'll re-brew this again a few times more using both methods and see what happens.

Cheers,
PP
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Post #12 made 13 years ago
by jimbobrewer
Ralph wrote:I'm with hashie. Also, a mix of Carafa I and III might help with complexity, if you have them- I seldom use one on its own nowadays. Mind you, ask that after QABC* and see how it floats! :o
I'd actually drop the Roast Barley and increase Carafa Tx too, I know it may seem counter-intuitive but I suspect that RB may become dominant.
My 2c, hope it helps!

* QABC- that's the State comp here in sunny Queensland. I'll be entering a Schwartzbier like the recipe above.


I found this suggestion from the From weyermann.de site:

"Replacement for differnent specialty malts

Question: I was hoping you could recommend a couple of your malts.I am trying to replace Briess Chocolate and Briess Victory malts with your malts. I use a bit of the chocolate and victory for my Schwartzbier. The chocolate gives me the dark color I need but does impart a bit more roasty flavor than I woudd like. The victory gives me a touch of biscuit flavor that helps add a bit of mouthfeel to the beer.
Answer: My suggestions to replace the Malts would be:

Briess Chocolate: 350°L :
There Weyermann Carafa® special Type 1 would be the perfect substitute.It shows the same color a has a milder flavour because it is produced from de-husked barley.

Briess Victory:
Weyermann Melanoidin Malt would be a wonderful possibility to use instead of this malt. It enhances body and mouthfeel."

Is this a equal weight for weight substitute?

Jimbo
Last edited by jimbobrewer on 02 Mar 2012, 12:52, edited 5 times in total.

Post #13 made 13 years ago
by PistolPatch
Hi there Jimbo,

That would be a weight for weight recommendation from Weyermann.

I was quite amazed at how much roastier the schwarta was when I added the specialty grains at mash out. (I thought it was too roasty but that one got a silver as well :scratch:). There's a bit more info on this in hashie's Adding specialty grains at mash out versus mash in. thread.

Cheers,
PP

P.S. I haven't forgotten your question re your scaling of the schwartz in BeerSmith2. I had a quick look this morning and it is going to take a bit of time to answer so I may another day sorry Jim.
Last edited by PistolPatch on 02 Mar 2012, 17:02, edited 5 times in total.
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Post #14 made 11 years ago
by dkrolak
I am making a black beer this week. I used Pistol Patch recipe from his above post. I have some question before I brew for this is only my 3rd BIAB. If possible please review my recipe and attached biabacus file.

1) Section C: Their was much discussion on this thread about the "roastiness" of the original recipe. Should I keep the grain bill as is?

3) Section D: I could not find the VAW from the original recipe posted by Pistol Patch. What is the original recipe's VAW. The VAW i inputted was from my recipe report.

2) Section E are my mash and mashout temps correct.

3) Section H is the Reg Volume of CO2 correct.

4) Is my fermentation temp correct. I am brewing this beer as a ale using US-56

6) Section X I use a gas fired propane and a keggle. It was suggested in another biabrewer thread to adjust Strike water adjust factor to .2. Also in this section I change my KFL to 4.2L, because this was the avg amount loss in my last two brews.

6) When I purchase my grains should I have them double crushed?

Below is the my updated recipe report and Biabacus File. Thanks PP for your help.


[center]BIABacus Pre-Release 1.3K RECIPE REPORT[/center]
[center]BIAB Recipe Designer, Calculator and Scaler.[/center]
[center](Please visit http://www.biabrewer.info" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; for the latest version.)[/center]
[center]Black Beer - Batch 3[/center]

Recipe Overview

Brewer:
Style: Schwarzbier
Source Recipe Link:
ABV: 4.6% (assumes any priming sugar used is diluted.)

Original Gravity (OG): 1.048
IBU's (Tinseth): 25.6
Bitterness to Gravity Ratio: 0.53
Colour:

Kettle Efficiency (as in EIB and EAW): 85 %
Efficiency into Fermentor (EIF): 71.9 %

Note: This is a Pure BIAB (Full Volume Mash)

Times and Temperatures

Mash: 90 mins at 66 C = 150.8 F
Boil: 90 min
Ferment: 14 days at 16 C = 60.8 F

Volumes & Gravities
(Note that VAW below is the Volume at Flame-Out (VFO) less shrinkage.)
The, "Clear Brewing Terminology," thread at http://www.biabrewer.info/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Total Water Needed (TWN): 38.02 L = 10.04 G
Volume into Boil (VIB): 36.16 L = 9.55 G @ 1.038
Volume of Ambient Wort (VAW): 27.2 L = 7.19 G @ 1.048
Volume into Fermentor (VIF): 23 L = 6.08 G @ 1.048
Volume into Packaging (VIP): 21.3 L = 5.63 G @ 1.012 assuming apparent attenuation of 75 %

The Grain Bill (Also includes extracts, sugars and adjuncts)

Note: If extracts, sugars or adjuncts are not followed by an exclamation mark, go to http://www.biabrewer.info" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (needs link)

55% Munich 1 2855 grams = 6.29 pounds
34.9% Weyermann Pilnser Malt 1808 grams = 3.99 pounds
3.7% Chocolate Malt 190 grams = 0.42 pounds
2.8% Caramalt 143 grams = 0.31 pounds
1.8% Carafa 95 grams = 0.21 pounds
1.8% Roasted Barley 95 grams = 0.21 pounds



The Hop Bill (Based on Tinseth Formula)

18.3 IBU Hallertau Pellets (4%AA) 45.6 grams = 1.609 ounces at 80 mins
7 IBU Hallertau Pellets (4%AA) 30.4 grams = 1.072 ounces at 20 mins
0.3 IBU Hallertau Pellets (4%AA) 20.3 grams = 0.715 ounces at 1 mins






Mash Steps

Mash Type: Pure BIAB (Full-Volume Mash) for 90 mins at 66 C = 150.8 F





Mashout for for 10 mins at 78 C = 172.4 F




Miscellaneous Ingredients

1/2 tab Whirfloc (Boil) 5 Mins - Clarity






Chilling & Hop Management Methods

Hopsock Used: Y

Chilling Method: Immersion Chiller (Employed 0 mins after boil end.)

Fermentation & Conditioning

Fermentation: US-056 for 14 days at 16 C = 60.8 F

Secondary Used: n
Crash-Chilled: N
Filtered: n
Req. Volumes of CO2: 2.4
Serving Temp: 8 C = 46.4 F
Condition for 14 days.


Special Instructions/Notes on this Beer
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Last edited by dkrolak on 02 Jul 2014, 08:54, edited 7 times in total.
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Post #15 made 11 years ago
by PistolPatch
drk, your file looks good mate. Just change the Caramalt to 150 grams instead of the 100 you have there. The Calculator's terminology was not as good as the BIABAcus. Use the Caclualtor's EOBV (26.84) as your VAW.*

This only comes out too roasty if you steep the specialty grains so make sure you put them in with your mash and mash them for the full 90 minutes. (It's a bit of a mystery as to why it comes out more roasty with less time?)

2.4 is fine on the CO2.

Ferment at around 15 to 16, no higher if possible as schwarz is really a lager so you want as clean a ferment as possible. I have fermented higher though and it all works out fine ;).

Order your grains to be crushed correctly (not double-crushed ;). Read this.

Your adjustments are good to KFL and the 0.2.]

Nice job!!!

* Maybe edit and re-upload your file in your last post so as we have a good copy :thumbs:.
Last edited by PistolPatch on 02 Jul 2014, 16:58, edited 5 times in total.
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Post #16 made 11 years ago
by dkrolak
Went to LHBS to get grains for my black beer recipe above but they did not have Caramalt instead substituted Caraplis. Also no Carafa so they suggested using debitter black malt or Midnight
Wheat. I choose the Debittered Black Malt. How will these substitutions effect the recipe
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Post #17 made 11 years ago
by mally
mmmmm... I am not sure.
There are 3 types carafa (that I can get) I, II, & III but these are dehusked barley which sounds the same as de-bittered? :scratch:
BTW the differences are the roast level; 1 being the lowest 900 EBC & III the most 1400 EBC.

So as a guess I would say this would probably make very little difference..
However;

Caramalt is lightly roasted malt EBC 30, and I would guess this would be more like a dark Munich malt. Carapils is very light roast EBC 4, so I would say that this is quite different.

I haven't seen your recipe (sorry) but if these are used in low quantities then neither may make much difference.
The problem you will have is that you won't know what it should have tasted like to compare to whether the change is better or worse.
Maybe if you like the recipe/style, brew it again with the correct ingredients and see whether it is different.
I reckon it will still be a nice beer regardless :luck:
G B
I spent lots of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I squandered
I've stopped drinking, but only when I'm asleep
I ONCE gave up women and alcohol - it was the worst 20 minutes of my life
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Post #18 made 11 years ago
by jube
This looks like a great recipe...I think this might be what I brew next too...thank pp and dkrolak.

Let us know how it turned out.
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Post #19 made 11 years ago
by dkrolak
Brewed Black Beer today. The brew day went smoothly, and I was pretty close to my volumes. However, my efficiencies; EIB=68.3%, EAW=65.6% and EIF=56.9% were way low. Attached is my Biabacus file with my final numbers, also on the Brew Checklist sheet of the file are my Mash Temp numbers. I was able to stabilize my mash temperature today and kept it between 65-66.5C. In my last two brews my mash was always a 2 to 3 degree too hot. Could my low efficiency be a result of the crush I requested at my LHBS. I requested a crush of .035 (I researched this number on this site) whereas the normal setting at the store is .028. The recipe had an estimated GAW=1.048 but my actual GAW was 1.038.

1) Any ideas what I did wrong?

2) Should I add DME to my fermentor to bump up the gravity? If so what type of DME?
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Last edited by dkrolak on 06 Jul 2014, 02:11, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #20 made 11 years ago
by PistolPatch
The only possibility I can see dkr is that your Mash Volume is a bit low. This could mean one of two things, your mash water was low (this won't affect your effcieincies) or the grain bill was low (which will of course affect your efficiencies). An incorrectly weighed grain bill does happen so maybe a kilo of grain went missing? If you have some light/pale DME handy then add 600 grams of that. If you leave it out, you'll still have an interesting beer although all those roasty grains will take over a bit.

From memory, your other brews have been fine so just put this one down to a dodgy grain bill I reckon ;). Sometimes these 'mistake' beers can teach a lot and rarely are they not nice.
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Post #21 made 11 years ago
by PistolPatch
Looks like you have edited your post #20 since I replied to it yesterday dkr as the file is new and some extra info is in your post. Careful of doing this as I would have totally missed your changes if I hadn't noticed that your new file hadn't been downloaded yet.

Anyway, I don't see any of that new info making any significant difference.

One other thing I should have mentioned is that the Mash Volume is only a very primitive check of correct TWN and grain bill weight as on a pot like yours, even 0.5cm measurement error equals over 0.5 litre error. Unless you double-checked your grain bill wright going into the brew, you can analyse all you like but you can't rely on any conclusions you draw. You just have to brew again and ensure on your next brew, you double check the weight of what you buy from the shop.

:peace:
PP
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Post #22 made 11 years ago
by dkrolak
Thanks PP for your feedback,

I updated my Biabacus file to reflect my changes in Section N. I included 600gram of DME added to fermentor. To answer your question about my grains I did weigh them prior to the mash in and the weight was 180g over what my recipe call for. So I think I can rule out a lack grains. On this brew i kept a rolling boil, not a vigorous one in order to cut down on loss to evaporation. Would that effect my GAW and EIF. Also prior to the brew day in Section X i set my KLF to be fixed at 4.2L but this time my actual KLF was 3.5L. So I am going back to the default.

Per your recommendation I boiled down 600g of Muttons Light DME this morning and added to my primary fermentor.

Your insights into the possible cause of my low efficiencies is greatly appreciated. Thank you I am learning alot from this site.
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Post #23 made 11 years ago
by PistolPatch
dkr, I've thought on your post above a few times today and I can't think of anything sorry. The boil vigour or evaporation rate does not affect kettle efficiency. The sugar is either there or it isn't once you pull the bag so unfortunately that is not the answer.

:scratch: :think: :scratch:

I also sometimes get an odd brew day so I wouldn't worry/obsess about it. For me the main thing is to make sure I have some double-checks in place before I go diluting or adding DME. I never do the latter as I always set my brew up to require dilution if anything.

I think but am not sure that you have read Some Common Reasons for a Low Efficiency Reading before but just in case, see if anything there rings a bell.

:peace:
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 07 Jul 2014, 20:16, edited 5 times in total.
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Schwarzbier (Lager) or "Black Beer" (Ale)

Post #24 made 11 years ago
by Contrarian
How did you check your gravity? It seems highly unusual to have the right grain bill and miss your starting gravity by 10 points. Could be an anomaly but could be a measurement issue.

I know that I have got very different gravity readings after a mash before and after stirring the wort so depending on your process that might have something to do with it. Another factor could be using a hydrometer and not adjusting for temp.

I'm sure it will be a tasty brew regardless!

Post #25 made 11 years ago
by onkeltuka
I was thinking of brewing this for our second batch after all. I filled all the info I knew how to the BIABicus, but there's stuff missing.

-Where do I find the EBC's for the malts?
- I would like to have 30 liters go to the fermenter, how do I calculate the bigger amounts of hops,malts,water?
- I would like to use WL liquid yeasts, and ale temps, so which one would be suitable?

Thanks!
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