No-Chill Hop Schedule

Post #1 made 6 years ago
As I mentioned on another thread, I hope to do my first BIAB brew within the next 2 weeks. I plan to go all out and brew a Pumpkin Ale recipe I found on the HBT Forum: http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f76/punkin-ale-145060/.

There has been a good bit of discussion of No-Chill on the HBT Forum, and a suggested change to the hop schedule was posted - it seemed that hops were delayed about 20 minutes with the last addition going into the cube.

Anyway, I would greatly appreciate it if you could explain how you change your hop additions when you're doing no-chill.

I'm being masochistic with this brew:
1. my first all-grain
2. my first BIAB
3. my first time with the keggle I just made
4. my first time with no-chill
and
5. we're moving in 2 months!!

Thanks,
Keith
Last edited by kzimmer0817 on 13 Sep 2012, 01:47, edited 2 times in total.

Post #3 made 6 years ago
Hee hee. There's a doctor joke in there somewhere (_x_). I figured that I would ask the question to the guys who do BIAB only. It seems that many of them do no-chill as well, so I thought this might be a better forum to pose the question.

Thanks. Now I just need to coordinate the brewday with my son.

Post #5 made 6 years ago
joshua wrote:Keith, if you have not read our topic on "why no-chill" check viewtopic.php?f=50&t=252
Joshua,
Thanks, but that thread had no useful information in it other than guys saying "why" they NC. Actually, now that I look more carefully at the thread, the last message is one by you linking to the No-Chill thread on HBT: Exporing "no chill" http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/explori ... ng-117111/. I think that thread has 1306 postings on it. In fact, that is the thread I alluded to when I mentioned there being some talk on HBT regarding NCing.

I searched thru this HBT thread and found the chart I was looking for on pg 47 #461. I'm hoping that this is a direct link to the message http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/explori ... ost1542375.
Image
Gee, it even worked when I included it as an image. This is the result of the work of one brewer. If you start reading several pages after message #461 on pg 47, you'll see some further discussion. Of course, NCing is done by both BIABrewers as well as the 3-vessel brewers.

I was wondering about the experience of those on this forum dedicated to BIABrewing since so many of you NC.

Respectfully submitted,
Keith
Last edited by kzimmer0817 on 13 Sep 2012, 03:53, edited 2 times in total.

Post #6 made 6 years ago
Keith, that image has a problem...The FWH 30m IBU is wrong, the should be the "Aroma 30min 0 IBU" meaning 30 minutes of Aroma hops after flameout. But I have the AROMA hops at flame out for 10minutes, then Pull the Hops-BAG.

The FWH is at the Top of the page at 100/80 minutes meaning onto the Kettle at MASHOUT.
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Post #7 made 6 years ago
Joshua,
Thanks for the input. I'm having a little difficulty understanding your statement. In the thread that I referenced, some pages later there was a discussion of IBU conversions for moving the hops.

Anyway, for my practical example, the Punkin Ale I want to brew using BIAB and no-chill calls for the following hop schedule:

1oz Hallertaur at 60 min.
1.5 Tbsp McCormicks Pumpkin Pie Spice at 10 min
1oz Hallertaur at 5 min.

According to the chart, the 60min addition would be moved to 40 minutes. I'm wondering what to do with the 5 minute addition since this is for aroma.

thanks,
Keith

Post #8 made 6 years ago
Keith, No-Chill will stay above 175F for hours, this will lose Aroma.
But, if you add the 5min hops for 20 minutes after Flameout, then remove all of the hops and transfer the wort to your 'CUBE' and seal it, the Aroma can not escape, and will stay with the Wort.

The reason for the 20 minute slip is that the final hop addtion is normally before flameout as "5 minutes before" now the hops will remain in the wort for 20 minutes AFTER Flamout.

The 60 minute addition becomes 40minute before+20 minutes after flameout.

But ALL this is not really usefull....

The Pumpkin spice can be added at 10minutes before flamout.

If you have a 'Cube' ready to use, follow the Normal hop addition times(60minute/20minutes/5minutes) pull the hop sack at flameout and transfer to the cube.

The wort cannot get more bitter or lose the aroma once the hops are removed and the 'cube' is sealed

But the freshness of the hops is lost from the hot wort.

Many folks dry hop, some make a hop tea.

Some will make a 60minute hop tea in a quart of wort, add 10 minute "flavor" hops and 5 minute "Aroma" hops, cool the 1 quart quicky, and add that to the Fermenter like "Dry Hopping".
I have done this and get VERY HOPPY Beer. The Hops are very fresh, and full flavored, and bitter. It is more work. But if you want HOPS!!!! try it. see http://hbd.org/discus/messages/46667/47301.html for details.


Also, for fun, check out BobBrews webite for Hop Vodka http://stempski.com/hop_vodka.php
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Post #9 made 6 years ago
Joshua,
Thanks for the explanation. I've posted the question to the very long thread about the particular recipe. So far, no helpful replies. I'm thinking that the hops aren't quite as important in the Pumpkin Ale.
Thanks,
Keith

Post #11 made 6 years ago
Hi there kzimmer - great question :thumbs:,

I'm going to try and give an answer from a different point of view. Here's the short answer...
You cannot copy another person's hop schedule unless you know their chilling method and, if active chilling was employed, when the active chilling commenced.
Like pretty much everything in the home brew world, when it comes to communicating recipes, there is a lot of misinformation or lack of information.

There are many ways to chill a brew...

1. Immediate Chilling - Do an active chill the second the flame turns off.
2. Delayed Chill - Let the wort settle and/or whirlpool before chilling (20-40 minute delay and what most commercial breweries would do).
3. Slow Chill - Let the brew cool naturally and pitch when cool enough.
4. No-Chill - Pitch hot into an air-tight vessel and delay pitching for days/weeks/months.

So...

Firstly, unless you know which one of the four above (or variation of the above) was used, there is no logical reason to alter the hop timings.

Secondly, if you do, by some miracle, discover what chilling method was used in the recipe, you still shouldn't alter it.

Why?

Because no proper research has been done on this.

For example, we did a side by side at my place a few months ago between methods 2 and 3 above on a hoppy beer and found no difference. A side by side between 1, 2 and 3 on both a hoppy and non-hoppy beer would be very interesting but would only be the start of exploring this area. Many controlled brews need to be done.

So, for now, I reckon there is no easy answer. It was one of the last things explored in finalising the BIABacus. Our temporary solution is to give the user a very fast way of including their chilling management method and having this copied to the Recipe Report. (At least this way, you get the core information.)

Maybe in a few more years, with more informative Recipe Reports such as has been devised for the BIABacus, we might start to see a pattern or more likely, they will enable a foundation for more clever experimenting.

Atm though, we really have nothing because there is no way of Brewer A telling Brewer B, "This is the way I chilled and how I went about it."

Does that make some sense?
PP

P.S. Don't get hung up on this. Just brew the beer. I've done all sorts of chilling methods and have never been disappointed in the resulting beer. Atm, we can intellectualise and calculate all we like but without an underlying structure and terminology, doing so is pretty much a waste of time.
Last edited by PistolPatch on 13 Sep 2012, 21:38, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #12 made 6 years ago
PistolPatch wrote:Hi there kzimmer - great question :thumbs:,

I'm going to try and give an answer from a different point of view. Here's the short answer...
PP,

This sounds like some of the medical explanations I've heard at meetings. "It all depends . . . " I think it's a big secret; some people know the answers but don't want to tell everything lest everyone's beer be of the same quality. Everyone at the church loves Mrs. Smith's Oatmeal cookies. She shares the recipe, but always leaves out some little secret ingredient - the one that makes hers so much better than the others. Sure, her shared recipe makes great cookies, but no one can get theirs quite like hers and no one knows why. Just kidding, BTW ;)
PistolPatch wrote:There are many ways to chill a brew...

3. Slow Chill - Let the brew cool naturally and pitch when cool enough.
4. No-Chill - Pitch hot into an air-tight vessel and delay pitching for days/weeks/months.
I'm not seeing the difference between #3 and #4. I thought No-Chill was simply not artificially chilling your wort (either by IC, CFC, Ice bath, etc. Most folks transfer from the kettle into a HDPE container (Aquatainer, Cube, Winpack, etc). The time frame wasn't the deciding factor. Usually, the wort has cooled by the next day to pitch the yeast. Whether or not one pitched directly into the NC container or transferred to a fermentation vessel didn't change the terminology. See, I'm splitting hairs over minutia, just like a doctor. :scratch:

I thought that the idea of storing the wort for an extended period was an extrapolation of the NC method - and one that requires strict attention to sanitation.

Anyway, when I think of No-Chill, I'm thinking that one shuts off the heat. Wilserbrewer on HBT simply covers his kettle and pitches directly into his kettle in the morning. I'm not brave enough to do that yet. I imagine that I would shut off the heat, then sanitize the NC container (my blue aquatainer), then transfer the hot wort into it, tighten the lid, then rotate it around to get hot wort in contact with all inside surfaces, then set the container up to cool overnight.
PistolPatch wrote:<snip>
For example, we did a side by side at my place a few months ago between methods 2 and 3 above on a hoppy beer and found no difference. A side by side between 1, 2 and 3 on both a hoppy and non-hoppy beer would be very interesting but would only be the start of exploring this area. Many controlled brews need to be done.

So, for now, I reckon there is no easy answer. . . <snip>

Atm though, we really have nothing because there is no way of Brewer A telling Brewer B, "This is the way I chilled and how I went about it."

Does that make some sense?
PP
It makes sense. I do agree that there are too many variables involved to give a "definitive" answer. I was simply looking to hear about the experience others might have with this. Have you NCers altered your hop additions? If so, I'd like to hear about what you did. If not, and you didn't find enough of a difference in your beer to worry about it, that would be helpful to know.
PistolPatch wrote:P.S. Don't get hung up on this. Just brew the beer. I've done all sorts of chilling methods and have never been disappointed in the resulting beer. Atm, we can intellectualise and calculate all we like but without an underlying structure and terminology, doing so is pretty much a waste of time.
Alright. You and thughes are telling me to get off my (_!_) and brew something!!! I want to brew the Punkin Ale recipe I referenced earlier. True, this isn't the same as me calculating doses of drug for a 10 lb baby. I guess it's the way I think. I don't want to screw up a beer. I spend several hours brewing it, and I won't know if it's any good for 4-6 weeks. If it's not good, I don't know enough to know what got screwed up: the process, the ingredients, etc.

To recapitulate a bit, one technique I read was that one often turns off the heat, then takes about 10 minutes getting ready to transfer the hot wort. The guy who made up that chart had determined that the NC process was the equivalent to extending the boil for 20 minutes - from a bitterness standpoint insofar as hops are concerned.

So, for the "Punkin Ale" that calls for the following additions:

1oz Hallertaur at 60 min.
1.5 Tbsp McCormicks Pumpkin Pie Spice at 10 min
1oz Hallertaur at 5 min.

Does it seem reasonable to move the 60 minute addition to 40 minutes. For what the Spice does, there's probably no harm in adding it at flameout. I've seen disagreement on what to do with the 5 minute addition. If that's for aroma, some have said that adding it to the NC container (wort to be racked off the next day) should be fine. The rationale was that, in a closed container, the aroma won't be boiled away even though the temp will remain high for a longer period of time.

Thanks, again, for your lengthy explanation. I guess I can always taste it when I rack to secondary. If it needs a little more hops, I can add a hop tea.

Regards,
Keith
Last edited by kzimmer0817 on 13 Sep 2012, 23:30, edited 2 times in total.

Post #13 made 6 years ago
"recapitulate"? Hey Doc, you're going to have to use smaller words.

RDWHAHB really applies here. It is very difficult to screw up a beer so badly that it is undrinkable. I say go ahead and brew this beer exactly as the recipe calls for and see how you like it. Then, brew it with the hops shifted and see how you like it. And then send me a bottle of each and I'll let you know what I think. (j/k, I really can't stand the thought of beer that tastes like pumpkin or pumpkin spices.....to each his own).

Take the Nike motto to heart and "just do it!"


---Todd
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Post #14 made 6 years ago
kzimmer0817 wrote:...this isn't the same as me calculating doses of drug for a 10 lb baby.
:lol:
kzimmer0817 wrote:I'd like to hear about what you did. If not, and you didn't find enough of a difference in your beer to worry about it, that would be helpful to know.
Yep, that's what we need more of Keith for sure ;). The problem is that unless the brews are done side by side, the results are fairly anecdotal.In this post, you'll see the results of a side by side. Basic conclusion was there was no agreement on what the difference was between the two methods.

I have a mate who started no-chilling probably 7 years ago after brewing hundreds of chilled batches. He makes no changes in his hop schedule. (I need to ask him how he used to chill though. From memory, I think he whirlpooled and settled).

An award-winning lager brewer over here also whirlpools and settles for about 40 minutes. Many chillers do this method as do micro breweries etc.

So, the odd method out is probably immediate chilling after flame out not no-chill.

Until more side by side experiments get done, I would be very hesitant to change a hop schedule.

:peace:
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 14 Sep 2012, 07:14, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #15 made 6 years ago
Thanks PP and Todd. I did receive a response on the Punkin Ale thread where someone said that they NCed and made no adjustments and it turned out fine. I think I'm going to leave it alone.

I'll let you know how it turns out. Of course, all I'll be able to do is say that the beer tasted good or not.

Really, there was a thread on HBT electric brewing forum where someone made a small electric BIAB using a 6 gallon kettle for brewing 2.5 gallon batches. Now, that's what I ought to do. I could brew a couple small batches in which I would hold certain variables constant and change one thing at a time.

Thanks,
Keith

Post #16 made 6 years ago
Hey Keith,

You've probably just found the best advice there is:
Make it and see how it turns out!
I NC (in a cube) and when I brew a beer for the first time, I make no changes to the grain or hop schedule other than scaling the recipe to my batch size. When I try the beer, I then decide if I want to make any changes pending on how it turned out.
At the end of the day, you'll make beer so it's all good :P

HC
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