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The New Site

Post #1 made 10 years ago
by Pat
I'm posting this in the General Chit-Chat, Nonsense & Rambles forum as it is a bit of a ramble.

I've been working on the new site a lot recently but am worried I am missing something obvious. The new site will have an official section designed in such a way that any brewer, regardless of their experience or equipment, should be able to find the right info, for them, within three clicks. Designing a structure that is so simple has been extremely difficult and is still going to take many more hours, re-structures and re-writes.

The above will be supported by a forum set-up where people can ask questions, just like here. That is another complex set-up as the structure needs to reward those who contribute whilst still being open for new brewers to freely ask questions as they do here.

I said above that I am worried that I am missing something obvious. Here's a few reasons why:

1. A heap of modern sites I click on have some splash screen that is often really hard to get rid of. Am I the only person that is annoyed by that?
2. I am finding most modern sites are blog-orientated; the info you get is the latest blog or article. (As an example, I like watching V8 Supercars. I found out today that I had missed the first two races of the season and had to scroll back through about 15 or 20 pages to see the first race highlights. Why is there no fast navigation on such a site?)
3. Some modern sites are almost impossible to navigate. I've looked up award-winning websites and found this. Or, when you can navigate them, a page takes a minute or longer to load and then reveals nothing more than a photo. I really don't get that.
4. I have several Google accounts to manage BIABrewer.info. I only have to check them occasionally but last time I did, it took about two days to sort things out. As for trying to ring someone, no chance. And, if you think I am stupid, I found others writing the same questions as myself on Google forums and getting no answers.

So, would you like the new site to have splash screens you can't get rid of, a non-existent navigation system and no way of contacting the site when you run into trouble? If yes, I think I can have that up by tomorrow :). Maintaining it would be super easy too - an article a day I can do while cleaning my teeth.

If no, can you let me know what you would like to see on the new site bearing in mind it will have one official side and a forum side?

Also some bad news.

Due to a back injury, I am now without an income as of last week. As some of you know, I post here as PistolPatch. That is something I have never publicised before. Many of the posts I have written here and elsewhere over the years take over an hour to write, if not half a day/night. Many other posts have been written off-forum trying to get things right. It's hard for me to know now whether to keep putting in the hours here and on the new site atm. A part of me says, "Keep going! Write a great site and the new members will pitch in $5." Even if 200 of them did every single week, I'm still stuffed though :P!

So, we are in for some uncertain times here atm sorry.

If you have any work that suits me...

If any of you have some work for me, let me know. I'm a good problem-solver and can do anything from operating a header* (grain harvester) through to implementing systems in complex businesses. I have no qualification I would mention here, as it/they have no relevance to my main skills.

The best use of me would be to identify problems in a business, no matter where you are located, or, if you already know of a problem, ask me to solve it. I'm very good at that.

Thanks,
Pat

* Oh, and I shouldn't drive a header as most of those jobs have no internet reception. How would I continue to post? :).
Last edited by Pat on 03 Apr 2016, 01:18, edited 1 time in total.
Are you a "Goodwill Brewer?" Pay forward and Buy Some BIPs ;)

Post #2 made 10 years ago
by Lumpy5oh
I am so sorry to hear of your back injury. They can be so debilitating and hard to heal. First and most important thing is to take care of our health; everything else doesn't matter.
What I think you are seeing with modern sites is that everyone including web developers are using WordPress templates. They take nothing to set up and a one armed monkey can maintain them and add content. People are more concerned with how the sites look and less about content.
I started a big ramble about a site I created years ago but I was struck with the thought of a Wiki style site.
Here is a link to a community of sites called Wikia. It looks as though they provide templates and hosting.
http://www.wikia.com/about
This is a beer based wikia site already up
http://beer.wikia.com/wiki/Beer_Wiki
I don't know if a wiki style site with a forum is what you are after.
With any forum site I think we are still going to get a lot of people not taking the time to search the articles before asking for quick and easy answers. Home brew talk is another forum that has added wiki type pages and blogs; they may be worth a look.

Take it easy and get better
Last edited by Lumpy5oh on 03 Apr 2016, 09:36, edited 1 time in total.
Some people are like slinkies. Not good for much, but bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs.

Weehoosebrewing.ga
    • SVA Brewer With Over 20 Brews From Canada

The New Site

Post #3 made 10 years ago
by Contrarian
Your injury sounds shit mate, very sorry to hear that. I really hope you find something that you can do while looking after yourself.

As for the site I think that what you are trying to achieve is very different to what a lot of websites are trying to achieve.

Think about something like ikea, essentially it is designed to confuse and overwhelm you so you get lost and distracted and buy a shed load of things you either didn't want or need. I would imagine that a lot of commercial websites are designed in a similar fashion.

If you actually want people to be able to find info easily then you have a very different imperative. I would suggest that whatever format you go with, the capacity to search for something and find it is what makes a site with a large diversity of info is bound to be difficult to navigate without one.

I really like the idea of having an info aide and a forum side. One of my frustrations with other brewing sites is the propensity of posters to tell others to do a search. People use forums as a way of engaging other people in discussion about a topic of interest. Engagement with other people is kind of the point! So it really shouldn't matter if the question has never been asked or been asked a thousand times people should be free to ask it. What should happen is that questions should be answered by people with just a little bit more knowledge than the people asking them rather than people who have answered them 1000 times before.

I also think that a structure can only ever provide a framework for other people to work within, there will always be an organic evolution of any public space and that is something that should be embraced for what it is.

Post #4 made 10 years ago
by ShorePoints
Pat - I'm sorry to hear that your back continues to ail you. Best of luck on recovery to a better state.

On the site, the forum is unique in style as far as I can tell and it should continue to be responsive as Contrarian outlines above. In early websites there was a rush to presence without content - not a problem here, the content is so large that it is cumbersome. How to sort through it to find gold might be a decision tree if one knew what was sought at each divide. But even after narrowing word choices to Clear Brewing Terminology words, it expands so quickly. A pre-filter to the search terms used? I wish I had an answer.
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From United States of America

Post #5 made 10 years ago
by Mad_Scientist
Pat - I empathize with you, having a back issue myself and was out of work for 1 year. Someone was watching over me during that dark period. You too will find the perfect job, it's in the bag, mate!

It's probably best to keep active on BIABrewer somewhat , but only after you take care of yourself and job searches. Go to Indeed dot com.

Sent from my XT1053 using Tapatalk
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From United States of America

Post #6 made 10 years ago
by Mad_Scientist
I know you could write your own book on BIAB, starting with the history and a very large BIABacus help. Market that BIABacus !!!

Sent from my XT1053 using Tapatalk
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From United States of America

Post #7 made 10 years ago
by Mad_Scientist
Finish the Beta BIABacus and do not have the linked help in each section, but sell the book that has the all inclusive help. Gather all that buried info on this site.

Sent from my XT1053 using Tapatalk
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From United States of America

Post #8 made 10 years ago
by Scott
Hey Pat,

Very sorry to hear of your back injury and you being out of work! That's no good place to be. Hopefully Australia has some kind of assistance for you while you recover and start figuring out the next chapter of your life. All that read your posts on this site can attest that you've got a great, well organized mind and these are very positive strengths that could help most any organization.

I think Mad Scientist has a great idea on you writing a book on BIAB... Devil is in the details...

As far as website is concerned, the web guy I consult with was recommending a WordPress type structure for our company's future and said that it would cost us some money to get it set up but that making changes to it is very simple. For BIABrewer.info, website design has to be flexible; there is no way to think of everything in advance so being able to add to it and make changes easily is important. Like we've discussed before I like a clean organization where it is quick and easy to navigate. And each page also be as clean as possible.
    • SVA Brewer With Over 50 Brews From United States of America

Post #9 made 10 years ago
by Brew4me
Pat,
Sorry to hear about the back. They take time to heal so don't push it.
I think Mad Scientist is right - you are a wealth of knowledge and history on BIAB and the site has much already captured - Write the book and reap some benefit from your hard work. I am sure we can contribute favorite recipes to that Recipe Chapter. Put me down for a first addition.
I also think Contrarian is right with respect to how forums are used. Somethings you can't program in - we need to set the expectations on behaviors etc.
Heal fast - don't want you to miss the world wide publishing / beer tour that goes with that BIAB Book.

Pete
    • SVA Brewer With Over 20 Brews From United States of America

Post #10 made 10 years ago
by jhough
Pat, take care of yourself mate...need to take care of #1 first, I learned the hard way after my heart incident. The site and a job will be there .....people will always hire good people, sometimes it takes awhile but they always do.
As for the site, I'm not a computer person...my computers are 12 volt automotive. Just PLEASE, no freaking popups.. I think that is half the time consuming part...LONG RUNNING FREAKING SCRIPS !
I know the other sites don't care about their readers ,but , that is what turned me on to BiaBrewer way back when. I'll try to chat with some people this week to see if they can help out.
Joe
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From United States of America

Post #11 made 10 years ago
by mally
^^ What all these guys said!

How about you speak to some of your pro-brewer contacts and set up teaching classes?
All you have to do is stand there and let them do all the donkey work.

You could make a killing as you can sell it to them that they can take home their own wort? Just a thought. :think:
G B
I spent lots of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I squandered
I've stopped drinking, but only when I'm asleep
I ONCE gave up women and alcohol - it was the worst 20 minutes of my life
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From Great Britain

Post #12 made 10 years ago
by dom
Sorry to hear about your back and job Pat. Like the other guys said keep your mind busy with stuff. A BIAB book actually could take off as I don't think I've seen one anywhere. You could sell it on Amazon Kindle too.
Hope you get better soon.
Cheers, Dom

Post #13 made 10 years ago
by Rick
Definitely write a BIAB book at some point! Your attention to detail would make it second to none.

Sorry to hear about the back, how's it looking as far as treatment is concerned. Fixable, or are you plagued for life?
    • SVA Brewer With Over 20 Brews From United States of America

Post #14 made 10 years ago
by Pat
Thanks a heap for wading through my ramble and then still having the energy to stay awake and make great comments. That makes a very real difference to me :salute:.

On the back side of things, while it is uncomfortable, it shouldn't (fingers crossed) re-occur as long as I don't go back to the work I was doing which involved a lot of working in awkward positions, standing on my head, lying on my back, crawling through a roof, twisting myself into cupboards and generally reaching for stuff which was always just out of reach :). Working out what to do now is a tad daunting :scratch:, but, I have to say your comments above lifted my mood a heap and have re-motivated me.

The below will hopefully answer some of your questions and acknowledge your suggestions.

The New Site

Firstly, the new site is going to be all about the user and have two, possibly three, sides to it.

The first side will be, in a way, like a book but the user will be able to find the info they need within a few clicks. The page design and menu structure will lead them to the right place often with simple intuitive icons. In other words, a beginner isn't going to end up reading very advanced techniques. This side will be all about simple, safe, best practices. (I can't find any website that looks like what I'm going to do but it's really all about page design and menu structuring to make the above work well). I'm going to use Joomla rather than Wordpress as it is more powerful.

The second side will be the main forum like we have here but it will be in phpBB3.1 which is so much better than what we have here now. It will be visually more engaging and will be of a "responsive" design and have lots of nice little tings that are impossible to do with the phpBB version we use now. Later I'll make it so that the user can even personalise the design and layout to one that suits them best.

The forum culture will be the same as here. No one is going to get crucified for asking a question that might seem simple. However, questions will be much faster to answer as many answers will have already been written in the "book" side above or those answers can act as the base to giving more specific answers. On the new forum, I really want to find a way of rewarding people who give time to giving quality answers. I also want to have a system that allows new members to ask a heap of questions etc., but, once they are past a certain point, they'll be expected to contribute to the culture or financially. I'm not keen on people just using the new site over and over and not giving anything back.

I'm still pondering the third side but don't have it sitting correctly in my head as yet. I'm thinking it will be a forum that deals with advanced stuff or stuff that varies from simple, safe, best practice. I sort of don't want newer brewers getting overwhelmed with access to too much info but I also wouldn't want to see members of this third side ignoring the main forum if that makes any sense. Regardless, I would think that access to that forum would require a history of contribution to the site whether it be financial or cultural contribution.

The Hard Bit

The main difficulty in the above is doing all the writing but I've ben pottering away at that and, if I stay motivated, might be able to have the main guts finished in a few months. Your comments above really help with that as I often wonder if what I write makes any sense.

Some of you who have spent a lot of time answering questions in detail might have noticed that you'll answer the same type of question many times but there's always something unique in your answer. I think (and hope) that the years of answering questions in detail, one on one, is what will make this new site possible. There is no way I could have even done it two years ago. Everything is finally starting to sit right.

Rick's been working on icons and logos which has been fantastic. He knows that it takes a heap of work to get things right and when you do get it right, you just know it and then you think, "Why didn't we think of that before?" :lol:

Anyway, once the stuff is written, I might see if I can find a Joomla expert locally to help me slam things together. That shouldn't be hard as I'm laying everything out as we go.

Your Comments

Just reading through them again and, as I said above, your comments really have made a big difference. For one, I don't feel like a complete lunatic now - lol!

Your comments have made me think that we are heading in the right direction and that it will be worth the effort (don't know about financially :) but once things are done, I'm sure some idea will pop up and/or I'll get some dollars coming in from some sort of job).

As for a book, the "first" side of the new set-up will be, in essence, a book, but one where the navigation will lead the reader to what they need to know at their current level of experience. Once that is all written though, it probably wouldn't be too much work to extract a book/s from it which could be great for brewers who are unaware of the new site's existence.

I better pull myself up now before I start acknowledging you all one by one - you know what I'm like :roll:.

Here's to no pop-ups and to you :thumbs:,
Pat
Last edited by Pat on 05 Apr 2016, 20:18, edited 1 time in total.
Are you a "Goodwill Brewer?" Pay forward and Buy Some BIPs ;)

Post #15 made 10 years ago
by mally
Pat wrote:Anyway, once the stuff is written, I might see if I can find a Joomla expert locally to help me slam things together. That shouldn't be hard as I'm laying everything out as we go.
Not that I will be able to help much with Joomla, as I think you will definitely need someone local, but I used it to maintain my website for a few years. From 1.5/2.0/2.5 & I think they are at version 3+ now? Unfortunately I closed my site down about a year ago so am a little out the loop now.

The one thing that still amazes me with Joomla is how you can radically alter the look & feel of your website by simply updating a template (seconds/minutes of effort), and if your lucky it doesn't impact any of the layout or need much "fiddling around".

If you have any questions about it just ask, I may even know?
Last edited by mally on 05 Apr 2016, 20:45, edited 1 time in total.
G B
I spent lots of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I squandered
I've stopped drinking, but only when I'm asleep
I ONCE gave up women and alcohol - it was the worst 20 minutes of my life
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From Great Britain

Post #16 made 10 years ago
by Pat
Mally, sorry for the slow reply. Hopefully, I privately said thanks for it in an email?

I also think the local thing would be a big bonus, but, once that is done, having someone like yourself on board would be a great bonus!

:)
Are you a "Goodwill Brewer?" Pay forward and Buy Some BIPs ;)
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