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Brew in NO bag

Post #1 made 12 years ago
by mally
A dangerous thought has occurred to me lately, and i hope there are experienced people that can tell me what is wrong!

It is advised to crush grain (barley kernel) so that you do not get too much flour, but enough to allow access to the insides.
outermost layer - 1) husk, then 2) aleurone, then the 3) inner embryo & 4) endosperm. I am guessing we want good access to 2,3&4.

I understand a crush with too much flour could cause just a clogged up mess inside your bag. However; if you could separate 2,3&4 from the husk. Would not all this mix just convert itself with no gunk? Thus no husk to worry about tannins?

If this is possible, i imagine it would be like adding flour to water (a big soggy dough ball)!
however, you could imagine there being no need for a bag, or heavy lifting etc.

i know there has to be a simple reason why we don't do this, do we need the husk? or more likely is it difficult to separate them like it is with wheat?

Thoughts?
G B
I spent lots of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I squandered
I've stopped drinking, but only when I'm asleep
I ONCE gave up women and alcohol - it was the worst 20 minutes of my life
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From Great Britain

Post #2 made 12 years ago
by PistolPatch
Bloody hell mally, every time I try and stop writing tonight someone asks an interesting question :angry:.

I'm guessing there's a few questions here. The first is, "If you could separate the husk (which is the the bran which contains mostly lignin and tannins I think :scratch:) from the goodies, would this be good?" I suspect this would be good.

But, even if you could separate the bran from the goodies*, I imagine that the goodies still contain some un-dissolvable stuff, very fine stuff that probably enjoys floating around in solution causing cloudiness. Who knows?

I'd love to learn more about the above or just even more about how various bread flours are made.

I suspect though that the reason that breweries don't use de-husked flour, is because of the second problem - stuff hanging around in solution resulting in cloudiness. Bear in mind that I am totally guessing here.

What I do know is that on many forums you often see advice saying that with BIAB, you can pulverize the grain into flour. This is really bad advice. The husk of the barley, if crushed (better word is squashed) correctly, acts as a very nice filter - nature's own.

In fact, if you stop and think about it for a minute, squashing and then soaking a grain is probably the most incredibly easy and efficient way of getting the goodness out of it whilst leaving the crap behind.

Pulverising the grain is a totally different scenario. All you have done by pulverising grain is made the good stuff and the bad stuff exactly the same size. How would you ever separate that?

...

* Sorry mally, just had another thought. I' almost 100% sure that you can't malt barley without the husk. After malting, it would be mechanically very difficult to separate the husk from the goodies as everything would have the same moisture content (brittleness) at that stage. See what I mean?

Great question and I certainly have no idea how much of the above I've written is correct apart form the bit about... don't pulverise!!!!

:P
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 10 Jan 2013, 23:19, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #4 made 12 years ago
by mally
I think i understand what you mean PP.
The malting process makes everything more "glued together", and thus harder/impossible to separate. I was thinking of this separation "post-malting".

In my head i can just see a process similar to what they do for wheat flour, where you end up with a bag of usable goodness.
However, i do know that wheat isn't as complex in structure as barley, so maybe it cannot be done as you say :scratch:

Would be good to tip a bag of barley flour in your boiler though, no voile, no weight, less cleaning.
You would also have to rename the site BIB (brew in boiler) :lol: If only!
G B
I spent lots of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I squandered
I've stopped drinking, but only when I'm asleep
I ONCE gave up women and alcohol - it was the worst 20 minutes of my life
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From Great Britain

Post #5 made 12 years ago
by GuingesRock
porchfiddler wrote:This question shalt seperate the wheat from the chaff amongst us :)
I suspect that PP might have an agricultural degree (somewhere on here said he put lots of herbs in his spaghetti when he was an agriculture student). That's barley fair! Would you accept a handicap PP? if there's to be a competition. Maybe a slight limit on the number of words per post or something :)
Last edited by GuingesRock on 11 Jan 2013, 00:10, edited 3 times in total.
Guinges

Post #6 made 12 years ago
by joshua
Good Day, Just a way to Piss PP off...

Fine Flour may be husks(brown) or White/Tan(starch), if it is starch, it will be converted to liquid and pass thru the bag.

Of course, fine Husks can pass thru a coarse bag, and if the Ph is 5.2 or less, and the husks go on to boil, tannins WILL be extracted.

Now, Glutans(wheat, rye, oats) are "goo-ie" and will not covert to sugars, but, a "protein rest" will break it down, and make the smooth liquid that does.

The fully "converted" grains needed the Husk to hold the Litte plant and roots that develope.

Bags of Flour(barley, wheat, rye) are seldom Converted, and if used, NEED a "protien Rest" to break down the Stuff PP says "some un-dissolvable stuff".

This info. comes from making Some "Bread Beer", 60%-6 Rrow barley, and 40%(Unconverted wheat,rye or Pearl Barley Flours).

JIMHO

Ps. "Malt Flour" is fully converted pearl grains, and will work with a Protien/Beta Glucanase rest
Honest Officer, I swear to Drunk, I am Not God.
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From United States of America

Post #7 made 12 years ago
by PistolPatch
mally wrote:In my head i can just see a process similar to what they do for wheat flour, where you end up with a bag of usable goodness.
However, i do know that wheat isn't as complex in structure as barley, so maybe it cannot be done as you say :scratch:
Didn't think of it until the end of my last post but bread flour isn't malted so we are probably taking chalk and cheese here. I'm 99% sure but not certain that you could malt a grain and then de-husk it or vice versa.
GuingesRock wrote:I suspect that PP might have an agricultural degree (somewhere on here said he put lots of herbs in his spaghetti when he was an agriculture student).
I'd forgotten that post :lol:. Reply in The Nonsense thread or Nuff will be on to us again :lol:.
joshua wrote:Good Day, Just a way to Piss PP off...
:angry:. Lot of good info there actually. I'm not taking the bait though Josh - I'm off to bed! I expect you to do a full distillation and analysis of what you just posted by the time I wake up. Seriously, I can see some good info in that post Josh but my brain is too tired to sort out the wheat from the chaff. (You won't believe this, but that pun was actually unintentional.)

:dunno:
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 11 Jan 2013, 01:51, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #8 made 12 years ago
by mally
My distillation is; it's a possibility?

My question is still though; why dont we do it?

For info; i was thinking of separating the husks before they go in the mash, i.e. you have a bag of flour that is "de-husked" malted barley (aleurone, inner embryo & endosperm). I still dont see why you would need to treat this differently just because it has no husk?

Now here is the killer blow; if you could de-husk with perfect separation, maybe blend all that into a powder/flour, what would happen to your efficiencies?
Sorry i had to mention efficiency (it might just make more people think about it) :lol:
G B
I spent lots of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I squandered
I've stopped drinking, but only when I'm asleep
I ONCE gave up women and alcohol - it was the worst 20 minutes of my life
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From Great Britain

Post #9 made 12 years ago
by GuingesRock
PistolPatch wrote:I'd forgotten that post :lol:. Reply in The Nonsense thread or Nuff will be on to us again :lol: PP
But this thread is within the nonsense chit chat and rambles section. I shouldn’t tease though when you’ve been working until late at night on BIABacus. Thanks for all the work there PP. I’m looking forward to using it.

Is it an option to be less serious providing the thread is in this section, or should it just be within the specific nonsense chit chat and rambles thread?

I do understand though, if someone is discussing an interesting issue and some idiot (like me) :) keeps chipping in with nonsense.

Sometimes humour though can be enlightening.

Thanks
Last edited by GuingesRock on 11 Jan 2013, 04:23, edited 2 times in total.
Guinges

Post #10 made 12 years ago
by Lylo
Humour has never gotten me into any serious trouble around here Guinges,and if you check back into my posts you will see that only about 1 in 10 have anything serious to add. :argh:
I am actually BobBrews lackey but aspire to become his flunkey or maybe even sidekick! :sneak:
The worst that might happen is we move the post or assign a new thread.Keep it come'n.
Last edited by Lylo on 11 Jan 2013, 05:31, edited 2 times in total.
AWOL

Post #11 made 12 years ago
by mally
what would happen to your efficiencies?
I can't believe nobody is biting :shock: i mentioned the word EFFICIENCY :sneak:
Last edited by mally on 11 Jan 2013, 05:42, edited 2 times in total.
G B
I spent lots of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I squandered
I've stopped drinking, but only when I'm asleep
I ONCE gave up women and alcohol - it was the worst 20 minutes of my life
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From Great Britain

Post #12 made 12 years ago
by GuingesRock
Lylo wrote:Humour has never gotten me into any serious trouble around here Guinges,and if you check back into my posts you will see that only about 1 in 10 have anything serious to add. :argh:
I am actually BobBrews lackey but aspire to become his flunkey or maybe even sidekick! :sneak:
The worst that might happen is we move the post or assign a new thread.Keep it come'n.
I’m jealous Lylo. How did you get to that status? Can I join please? How do I apply?

Would you start a thread for aspiring Bob’s Lackey’s, with instructions, training, application procedure etc. I know I’m going to have to work on sharpening my wit. Your wit floors me some times…and Bob’s humour!

Could I start off at lackey and you move up to flunky status…..Please!

Sorry mally….on with the business in hand. Where were we? I hope you get some bites.

My brain is totally addled at this time of day when I just get home from work. In fact I don’t think I have a brain at all. I’ve been trying to say intelligent things all day. I’m off to get a drink from a can….been canning all my beer lately as I’ve decided I’m a bogan after all. :)
Last edited by GuingesRock on 11 Jan 2013, 06:03, edited 2 times in total.
Guinges

Post #13 made 12 years ago
by joshua
Good Day, to answer PP's question..."my brain is too tired to sort out the wheat from the chaff. (You won't believe this, but that pun was actually unintentional.)"

Please see..http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winnowing

And Maybe http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Threshing

Also, there is a German wheat beer recipe that calls for 60% malted Wheat and 40% un-malted, sometimes toasted wheat, I forgot my German class 30 years ago, so I can't remember the name.
Honest Officer, I swear to Drunk, I am Not God.
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From United States of America

Post #15 made 12 years ago
by GuingesRock
BrewMitta wrote:Do you think the person who invented dry malt extract began thinking like this ?
He/she was probably drunk and needed to make some more beer in a hurry :)
Last edited by GuingesRock on 11 Jan 2013, 20:53, edited 2 times in total.
Guinges

Post #16 made 12 years ago
by joshua
Good Day, The dry malt extract/DME was invented, due to ALL the NO-CHILL Cubes he/she had.

I once fell asleep and Boiled the wort for 6 hours and Invented LME.......I also have a bridge for sale....
Honest Officer, I swear to Drunk, I am Not God.
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From United States of America
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