Sorry if my search skills suck but I could not find an answer yet. I just received a Barley Crusher malt mill. Since BIAB is not subject to the "stuck sparge" I assumed I could set those rollers closer than the factory setting. Will that make for better efficiency? What would be a good gap to tweak it to?
Thanks
Post #2 made 14 years ago
Hey Ziggy, I have a Malt Mill, that doesn't have an adjustable gap setting. I used to double, or sometimes even a triple crush, believing it to give me better extract efficiency. However, once I got my process down and repeatable, I have gone back to a single pass through the mill and still get 80 - 83% post boil efficiency.
One of the down sides of a finer crush is a lot of extra trub at the end of the boil from all of the extra flour you will create.
So to answer your question, .045" or 1.14mm is the gap I am using. You could go finer, but I think and I'm happy to be proven wrong, that you don't need to.
One of the down sides of a finer crush is a lot of extra trub at the end of the boil from all of the extra flour you will create.
So to answer your question, .045" or 1.14mm is the gap I am using. You could go finer, but I think and I'm happy to be proven wrong, that you don't need to.
Last edited by hashie on 13 Feb 2012, 07:50, edited 3 times in total.
"It's beer Jim, but not as we know it."
Post #4 made 14 years ago
Well... what did you focus on to get your efficiency up? That is now the bigger question than crush size. better temp control? water volume? time?
Post #5 made 14 years ago
I measured my conversion efficiency and was aiming for 99%
At 0.6mm on my Monster Mill I was getting good conversion. I then tried 0.5mm and I'm getting far too much flour sludge in my kettle trub.
So I intend to go back to 0.6mm, I just keep on being to slack on milling day!
At 0.6mm on my Monster Mill I was getting good conversion. I then tried 0.5mm and I'm getting far too much flour sludge in my kettle trub.
So I intend to go back to 0.6mm, I just keep on being to slack on milling day!
Fermenting: -
Cubed: -
Stirplate: -
On Tap: NS Summer Ale III (WY1272), Landlord III (WY1469), Fighter's 70/- II (WY1272), Roast Porter (WY1028), Cider, Soda
Next: Munich Helles III
5/7/12
Cubed: -
Stirplate: -
On Tap: NS Summer Ale III (WY1272), Landlord III (WY1469), Fighter's 70/- II (WY1272), Roast Porter (WY1028), Cider, Soda
Next: Munich Helles III
5/7/12
Post #6 made 14 years ago
Good Day, Since I have found Coarse, Fine And VERY fine voile, Flour can become a problem draining the very fine voile.
Really, the voile will dictate the grind setting for the mill, A coarse viole can only use ths 1.4MM gap.
Really, the voile will dictate the grind setting for the mill, A coarse viole can only use ths 1.4MM gap.
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Post #7 made 14 years ago
Ziggy, I found temperature control of the mash the most important factor, that and learning to relax 
"It's beer Jim, but not as we know it."
Post #8 made 14 years ago
As hashie mentioned, a fine crush does not necessarily give better overall efficiency. Doing a normal crush (a better word would be squash) gives the best balance in my opinion.
The first thing we need to know is whether you even have an efficiency problem. The term efficiency in itself means nothing as there are so many efficiency types.
1. CE - Conversion efficiency - (An advanced type that stux has been exploring. It requires study to understand it.)
2. EIK - Efficiency into Kettle - Also known as mash efficiency or pre-boil efficiency. It should also be very close if not identical to post-boil efficiency. BIABrewer regards this as the most useful efficiency figure to give other brewers.
3. EIF - Efficiency into Fermentor
4. EIP - Efficiency into Packaging
The term, "Brewhouse Efficiency," is a dangerous term to use as depending on the brewer or the software, they could mean any one of 2, 3 or 4 above.
On a brew I could get the following efficiency figures...
CE = 99%
EIK = 82%
EIP = 70%
EIP = 60%
So Ziggy, you might just think you are having an efficiency problem when you actually aren't!
I think your best bet is to take some gravity and volume measurements pre-boil, post-boil and into the fermentor. Do this over a few brews and also let us know the grain bill and how much water you started with. Doing this is the first step to exploring efficiency.
Unless you have a shocking pH or a bad batch of grain, you really shouldn't be having any efficiency problems Zig.
PP
The first thing we need to know is whether you even have an efficiency problem. The term efficiency in itself means nothing as there are so many efficiency types.
1. CE - Conversion efficiency - (An advanced type that stux has been exploring. It requires study to understand it.)
2. EIK - Efficiency into Kettle - Also known as mash efficiency or pre-boil efficiency. It should also be very close if not identical to post-boil efficiency. BIABrewer regards this as the most useful efficiency figure to give other brewers.
3. EIF - Efficiency into Fermentor
4. EIP - Efficiency into Packaging
The term, "Brewhouse Efficiency," is a dangerous term to use as depending on the brewer or the software, they could mean any one of 2, 3 or 4 above.
On a brew I could get the following efficiency figures...
CE = 99%
EIK = 82%
EIP = 70%
EIP = 60%
So Ziggy, you might just think you are having an efficiency problem when you actually aren't!
I think your best bet is to take some gravity and volume measurements pre-boil, post-boil and into the fermentor. Do this over a few brews and also let us know the grain bill and how much water you started with. Doing this is the first step to exploring efficiency.
Unless you have a shocking pH or a bad batch of grain, you really shouldn't be having any efficiency problems Zig.
PP
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Post #9 made 14 years ago
PP means EIF at 70% not EIP 
Fermenting: -
Cubed: -
Stirplate: -
On Tap: NS Summer Ale III (WY1272), Landlord III (WY1469), Fighter's 70/- II (WY1272), Roast Porter (WY1028), Cider, Soda
Next: Munich Helles III
5/7/12
Cubed: -
Stirplate: -
On Tap: NS Summer Ale III (WY1272), Landlord III (WY1469), Fighter's 70/- II (WY1272), Roast Porter (WY1028), Cider, Soda
Next: Munich Helles III
5/7/12
Post #10 made 14 years ago
Not sure if this should be a new post or added to this one since it inspired me to ask.
My issue is that I typically brew 5.2 gal batches and I am required to brew about 1 gal to 1.25 gal extra (due to kettle trub) to make up for it. The calculator assumes trub quantity should be lower (about 3 L)so I think I have my mill gap set too low. Typically I whirlpool after chilling and let everything settle for about an hour.
I have been wondering about mill gap settings. I use a 2-roller mill setup. It is difficult to set the roller mill to such an exact (down to the 0.1 mm increment) gap setting with the type of adjustment method designed into the mill. How I gauge gap is to insert the feeler gauge between the rollers and if it touches any knurls the mill gauge is increased until it travels freely. If short from desired setting, increase the gap until it is relatively friction-free to the feeler gauge.
From what PP mentioned about just squishing the grains I was wondering if that means the optimal crush is to just have the grain milled enough to break up the inside of the kernel but leave the husk in tact and containing all of the broken pieces of the grain inside. What I end up with seems to be a lot of flour material.
I know this is a lot to read through, but I am just curious if 1 gal is a typical amount to discard. It seems high to me but from my entire career of BIAB's (5 total in the past month) my averages are as follows:
EIK: 70.2%
EOB: 68.6%
EIF: 57.6%
EIP: 55.4%
Please note this is just a general efficiency. I use a refractometer and am not sure I get exact measurements every time because of the small sample size (as mentioned in another thread). But across the board the measurements seem to about the same. Grain bills range from 6,500 g to 7,500 g. Please see attached photo for the results of my last crush.
My issue is that I typically brew 5.2 gal batches and I am required to brew about 1 gal to 1.25 gal extra (due to kettle trub) to make up for it. The calculator assumes trub quantity should be lower (about 3 L)so I think I have my mill gap set too low. Typically I whirlpool after chilling and let everything settle for about an hour.
I have been wondering about mill gap settings. I use a 2-roller mill setup. It is difficult to set the roller mill to such an exact (down to the 0.1 mm increment) gap setting with the type of adjustment method designed into the mill. How I gauge gap is to insert the feeler gauge between the rollers and if it touches any knurls the mill gauge is increased until it travels freely. If short from desired setting, increase the gap until it is relatively friction-free to the feeler gauge.
From what PP mentioned about just squishing the grains I was wondering if that means the optimal crush is to just have the grain milled enough to break up the inside of the kernel but leave the husk in tact and containing all of the broken pieces of the grain inside. What I end up with seems to be a lot of flour material.
I know this is a lot to read through, but I am just curious if 1 gal is a typical amount to discard. It seems high to me but from my entire career of BIAB's (5 total in the past month) my averages are as follows:
EIK: 70.2%
EOB: 68.6%
EIF: 57.6%
EIP: 55.4%
Please note this is just a general efficiency. I use a refractometer and am not sure I get exact measurements every time because of the small sample size (as mentioned in another thread). But across the board the measurements seem to about the same. Grain bills range from 6,500 g to 7,500 g. Please see attached photo for the results of my last crush.
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Post #11 made 14 years ago
What material is your biab bag made out of?
Fermenting: -
Cubed: -
Stirplate: -
On Tap: NS Summer Ale III (WY1272), Landlord III (WY1469), Fighter's 70/- II (WY1272), Roast Porter (WY1028), Cider, Soda
Next: Munich Helles III
5/7/12
Cubed: -
Stirplate: -
On Tap: NS Summer Ale III (WY1272), Landlord III (WY1469), Fighter's 70/- II (WY1272), Roast Porter (WY1028), Cider, Soda
Next: Munich Helles III
5/7/12
Post #12 made 14 years ago
It's a standard voile curtain. I just took a picture an it is about 43 stitches per inch. I cannot upload to the site since it's over 1mb. Is that enough info?
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Post #13 made 14 years ago
tolonen,
Between my kettle, cube, and fermenter, I average @ 1.25 gallons to "equipment" loss also. I'm using the standard voile bag but I grind my grain with a corona mill which results in a lot of flour. I suppose I could rig a false bottom, dip tub, and use a hop sock to reduce the total amount of trub loss but I just adjust my brewing software to compensate. Having to use an extra bit of grain to end up with 6.25 gal vs 5 gal at end of boil is not really a concern to me. I can usually filter a quart of starter wort out of the left-over trub (which helps to ease the pain of "discarding" a gallon of potential beer).
---Todd
Between my kettle, cube, and fermenter, I average @ 1.25 gallons to "equipment" loss also. I'm using the standard voile bag but I grind my grain with a corona mill which results in a lot of flour. I suppose I could rig a false bottom, dip tub, and use a hop sock to reduce the total amount of trub loss but I just adjust my brewing software to compensate. Having to use an extra bit of grain to end up with 6.25 gal vs 5 gal at end of boil is not really a concern to me. I can usually filter a quart of starter wort out of the left-over trub (which helps to ease the pain of "discarding" a gallon of potential beer).
---Todd
WWBBD?
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Post #14 made 14 years ago
Hi there tolonen 
,
Great post above. Your EIK is a little low for that size grain bill. (I'm guessing the original gravity of your recipes is around 1.065.) It probably should be about 5% higher. Check through this post for possible reasons. A lot of these you will already have the answer to. It may end up being a simple matter of pH but double-check the other points first.
Your crush looks good to me. Even though there are a few uncrushed grains, this is normal.
Your kettle trub losses are high. I am assuming that you are using pellet hops loose in the kettle. Consider using your BIAB bag as a hop sock on your next brew to reduce trub losses. Just tie the bag to a rope and suspend it freely in the kettle. Other options might include whirlppooling. Don't use a drill, do it by hand to gradually build up a strong, even whirlpool. A drill tends to create a whirlpool of uneven speeds that throws the trub everywhere.
stux was asking about your bag as there is a chance that the porosity is too large and a lot of trub is slipping through. Try using a program such as Microsoft Picture Manager to scale your recipe to a size suitable for forums. Alternatively, use a service such as ImageShack to resize your pics and give you code you can copy straight into your post.
There is some good info on bag material porosity and some pics in this thread. It is possible that 43 threads per inch is bit too coarse. Re-reading that thread encouraged me to go and check mine with a magnifying glass. Mine is about 40 threads per cm. In other words it has about 2.5 times the amount of threads. Interesting! I would love to see a pic.
PP
,Great post above. Your EIK is a little low for that size grain bill. (I'm guessing the original gravity of your recipes is around 1.065.) It probably should be about 5% higher. Check through this post for possible reasons. A lot of these you will already have the answer to. It may end up being a simple matter of pH but double-check the other points first.
Your crush looks good to me. Even though there are a few uncrushed grains, this is normal.
Your kettle trub losses are high. I am assuming that you are using pellet hops loose in the kettle. Consider using your BIAB bag as a hop sock on your next brew to reduce trub losses. Just tie the bag to a rope and suspend it freely in the kettle. Other options might include whirlppooling. Don't use a drill, do it by hand to gradually build up a strong, even whirlpool. A drill tends to create a whirlpool of uneven speeds that throws the trub everywhere.
stux was asking about your bag as there is a chance that the porosity is too large and a lot of trub is slipping through. Try using a program such as Microsoft Picture Manager to scale your recipe to a size suitable for forums. Alternatively, use a service such as ImageShack to resize your pics and give you code you can copy straight into your post.
There is some good info on bag material porosity and some pics in this thread. It is possible that 43 threads per inch is bit too coarse. Re-reading that thread encouraged me to go and check mine with a magnifying glass. Mine is about 40 threads per cm. In other words it has about 2.5 times the amount of threads. Interesting! I would love to see a pic.
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 29 Feb 2012, 21:21, edited 3 times in total.
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Post #15 made 14 years ago
Todd,
That's a good idea about keeping the wort for some other use. Maybe I can make a 'dirty' beer in a one gallon jug and see what turns out if I have extra yeast to throw in.
PP,
Thanks for the tips on getting me a little further along. Yeah, 4 of my brews were to be about 1.065, and one was to be 1.055. Of the 3 I have been able to sample so far 2 are very good, the other one (the lower gravity, first BIAB) may need more time to condition (been 6 weeks so far in keg). They're all beer though so that's good enough for me.
I ended up taking another picture after you mentioned your thread-count and that bag-material thread. I did not have the camera focused tightly enough the first time, the threads are in groups of 2. So it's about 20 per 0.25" or 80 per 1" so I should be OK there at least. I attached a picture that I contrast-enhanced to show the threads a little clearer.
If that's how the typical crush looks than I'm good with that. I'll try some of the other techniques you suggested tomorrow for my sixth BIAB
and let you know how it goes.
Dan
That's a good idea about keeping the wort for some other use. Maybe I can make a 'dirty' beer in a one gallon jug and see what turns out if I have extra yeast to throw in.
PP,
Thanks for the tips on getting me a little further along. Yeah, 4 of my brews were to be about 1.065, and one was to be 1.055. Of the 3 I have been able to sample so far 2 are very good, the other one (the lower gravity, first BIAB) may need more time to condition (been 6 weeks so far in keg). They're all beer though so that's good enough for me.
I ended up taking another picture after you mentioned your thread-count and that bag-material thread. I did not have the camera focused tightly enough the first time, the threads are in groups of 2. So it's about 20 per 0.25" or 80 per 1" so I should be OK there at least. I attached a picture that I contrast-enhanced to show the threads a little clearer.
If that's how the typical crush looks than I'm good with that. I'll try some of the other techniques you suggested tomorrow for my sixth BIAB
and let you know how it goes.Dan
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Last edited by tolonen on 01 Mar 2012, 08:58, edited 3 times in total.
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Post #16 made 14 years ago
Thanks for posting the pic Dan - nice work!
Don't be too worried about your EIK and trub losses. Just check out those other factors and the hop sock and if you get a gain, great. Your numbers are certainly in the ballpark. Can you check your pH?
Cheers,
PP
Don't be too worried about your EIK and trub losses. Just check out those other factors and the hop sock and if you get a gain, great. Your numbers are certainly in the ballpark. Can you check your pH?
Cheers,
PP
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