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Rye IPA - First BIAB - Bear Republic Hop Rod Rye Clone

Post #1 made 11 years ago
by Odymate
Hi All,

Here is my first recipe to be attempted this weekend. Taken from BYO.com which supplied the following info:

Hop Rod Rye clone
(Bear Republic Brewing Co.)
(5 gallons/19 L, all-grain)
OG = 1.072 FG = 1.017
IBU = 84 SRM = 17 ABV = 7.2%

Ingredients
8.75 lbs. (4.0 kg) 2-row pale malt
2.5 lbs. (1.1 kg) rye malt
1.25 lbs. (0.57 kg) flaked rye
1.15 lbs. (0.52 kg) Munich malt
0.625 lbs. (0.28 kg) wheat malt
0.625 lbs. (0.28 kg) CaraPils malt
1.75 oz. (49 g) black malt
10.4 AAU Tomahawk hops (60 mins)
(0.74 oz./21 g of 14% alpha acids)
4.73 AAU Centennial hops (30 mins)
(0.43 oz./12 g of 11% alpha acids)
24.3 AAU Tomahawk hops (0 mins)
(1.7 oz./49 g of 14% alpha acids)
0.75 oz. (21 g) Amarillo hops (dry hop)
1.0 oz. (28 g) Centennial hops
(dry hop)
1 tsp Irish moss (15 mins)
Wyeast 1272 (American Ale II) or White Labs WLP051
(California V) yeast
0.75 cups corn sugar
(for priming)

Step by Step
Mash in at 145 °F (63 °C) then ramp temperature to 152 °F (67 °C) for conversion. Mash out to 170 °F (77 °C). Boil for 90 minutes, adding hops at the times indicated in the ingredient list. Whirlpool the wort and let it sit for 15 minutes prior to cooling. Ferment at 68 °F (20 °C).


And after entering into the BIABacus:


[center]BIABacus Pre-Release 1.3 RECIPE REPORT[/center]
[center]BIAB Recipe Designer, Calculator and Scaler.[/center]
[center](Please visit http://www.biabrewer.info" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; for the latest version.)[/center]
[center]Hop rod rye Clone - Batch 1[/center]

Recipe Overview

Brewer: Tim O
Style: Rye IPA
Source Recipe Link:

Original Gravity (OG): 1.072
IBU's (Tinseth): 84.2
Bitterness to Gravity Ratio: 1.17
Colour:
ABV%: 6.97

Efficiency into Kettle (EIK): 76.8 %
Efficiency into Fermentor (EIF): 65.9 %

Note: This is a Pure BIAB (Full Volume Mash)

Times and Temperatures

Mash: 90 mins at 67 C = 152.6 F
Boil: 90 min
Ferment: 10 days at 18 C = 64.4 F

Volumes & Gravities

Total Water Needed (TWN): 36 L = 9.51 G
Volume into Kettle (VIK): 32.39 L = 8.56 G @ 1.057
End of Boil Volume - Ambient (EOBV-A): 24.5 L = 6.47 G @ 1.072
Volume into Fermentor (VIF): 21 L = 5.55 G @ 1.072
Volume into Packaging (VIP): 20.22 L = 5.34 G @ 1.018 assuming apparent attenuation of 75 %

The Grain Bill (Also includes extracts, sugars and adjuncts)

Note: If extracts, sugars or adjuncts are not followed by an exclamation mark, go to http://www.biabrewer.info" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (needs link)

58.3% Joe White Traditional Ale 4519 grams = 9.96 pounds
16.7% rye malt 1291 grams = 2.85 pounds
8.3% flaked rye 646 grams = 1.42 pounds
7.7% munich malt 594 grams = 1.31 pounds
4.2% Wheat 322 grams = 0.71 pounds
4.2% carapils malt 322 grams = 0.71 pounds
0.7% black malt 57 grams = 0.13 pounds


The Hop Bill (Based on Tinseth Formula)

37.8 IBU Columbus Pellets (16.3%AA) 27.3 grams = 0.963 ounces at 60 mins
11 IBU Centennial Pellets (8.9%AA) 18.9 grams = 0.667 ounces at 30 mins
35.4 IBU Columbus Pellets (16.3%AA) 51.5 grams = 1.815 ounces at 15 mins
0 IBU Amarillo Pellets (8.4%AA) 22.1 grams = 0.778 ounces at 0 mins (Dry Hopped)
0 IBU Centennial Pellets (8.9%AA) 29.4 grams = 1.037 ounces at 0 mins (Dry Hopped)




Mash Steps

Mash Type: Pure BIAB (Full Volume Mash) for 90 mins at 67 C = 152.6 F





Mashout for for 10 mins at 77 C = 170.6 F




Miscellaneous Ingredients

1 tsp Whirlfloc ()10 Mins






Chilling & Hop Management Methods



Chilling Method: no chill

Fermentation& Conditioning

Fermention: Wyeast 1272 for 10 days at 18 C = 64.4 F

Secondary Used: n
Crash-Chilled: y
Filtered: n





Special Instructions/Notes on this Beer







This is a beer I really like and the catalyst to start homebrewing again.

The recipe in BYO when entered into the BIABacus comes up way short on the IBU's. I suspect the addition at 0min is wrong or another addition is missing, so I have adjusted some thing to compensate.

Does this look OK?

Thanks
Odymate
Last edited by Odymate on 11 Mar 2014, 11:10, edited 1 time in total.

Post #2 made 11 years ago
by PistolPatch
Welcome to the forum ody :salute:,

Can you post your BIABacus file here? Normally the posting of BIABacus Pre-Release files is preferred to be done in a few selected threads but you'll be okay here seeing as it is mainly due to me that a new pre-release hasn't been done in ages :roll: :).

Recipe terminology, recipe integrity and recipe calculations are things that this site is leading the way in although a lot more time/work needs to be done to make it easy for people like yourself to find this information. Once you have posted your file and are waiting for a reply, read this post and the one after it. Then, try an advanced search of posts done by me that contain the phrase 'batch size'. My earliest posts here on the site probably have the longest rants - lol.

Once you have done that, could you please let me know if reading the posts etc answers some or most of your questions above?

Your question/post is a good one. You are asking about the elephant in the room. This is an elephant we are trying to shoot. (We love real elephants though).

;)
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 11 Mar 2014, 18:32, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #3 made 11 years ago
by Odymate
Hi PistolPatch,
I really appreciate your response to my post. I had read that post previously and have read it again. Recipe Integrity! So many recipes are thrown around out there on the web and it seems no-one has actually brewed most of them.
So the elephant in the room is the scaling of the hop additions? I can see that this may be nigh on impossible to get right when scaling a recipe. I guess we have to take the word of the supplier as to the AA% of the hops we use. Then I believe that this decreases over time, so a batch of pellets from 2012 which originally was packaged with say 10% AA, will today be opened and be significantly less.
Once the beer is brewed and fermented and ready to serve is there any way to measure IBU's or are we just going on the theoretical level based an pre-fermantation calculations?
Is this the crux of the problems?
In any case, file attached. I sort of assumed the BIABacus addressed the scaling of the hops but I haven't looked at this closely enough.

OK, I've read even further and have now realised what I was missing in regards to the original recipes lack of info regarding EOBV-A and how this effects the hop additions. Do you think it safe to assume that these 5 gallon recipes that are so common refer to VIF?
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Post #4 made 11 years ago
by balli1990
Odymate

That is exactly the problem!
Odymate wrote: OK, I've read even further and have now realised what I was missing in regards to the original recipes lack of info regarding EOBV-A and how this effects the hop additions. Do you think it safe to assume that these 5 gallon recipes that are so common refer to VIF?
Some recipes at first glance look like they have integrity but they don't, especially online recipes. Allot of recipe sources throw around jargon like efficiency and brew length but what exactly do these terms mean? well we will never know unless they specify, do they mean efficiency into boil? efficiency into fermenter? efficiency into packaging? same with brew length do they mean VIF?, VAW? or VIP?

This is exactly why BIABrewer Is trying to coin these abbreviations so that it is completely clear what the figures mean when anyone posts a recipe.

You could assume that they mean VIF but who Knows? They may actually mean VAW or VIP?

This thread is full of places you can find high integrity recipes check it out!! viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1981
Last edited by balli1990 on 12 Mar 2014, 19:57, edited 1 time in total.

Post #5 made 11 years ago
by Odymate
Thanks for posting Balli,

So my recipe has some integrity in that we have the weight of the grain and an OG.
The main problem is going to be the hops.
I'm going to use a converted Keg (Swan) with electric element.
It will take a while to sort out the different volumes lost in the whole process.
I have looked at different IBU calculators on the Web, both Tinseth and Rager.
There is no way to get to 84 IBU's with the hop schedule given.
I've noticed in the BIABacus, changing the size of the boil does not change the IBU's of the hops used, so I guess this does not matter so much.

It doesn't seem to matter how I play with the original recipe, I cannot get the expected IBU's.

I have found another recipe purporting to also be from BYO magazine which would appear to have high integrity:

BeerSmith Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com
Recipe: Hop Rod Rye
Brewer: Preston Brown
Asst Brewer: Brown_Beer.gif
Style: American IPA
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 5.25 gal
Boil Size: 6.63 gal
Estimated OG: 1.072 SG
Estimated Color: 13.0 SRM
Estimated IBU: 131.2 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: - 75%
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
8 lbs 12.0 oz Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 58.29 %
2 lbs 8.0 oz Rye Malt (4.7 SRM) Grain 16.66 %
1 lbs 4.0 oz Rye, Flaked (2.0 SRM) Grain 8.33 %
1 lbs 2.4 oz Munich Malt - 20L (20.0 SRM) Grain 7.66 %
10.0 oz Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 4.16 %
10.0 oz Wheat, Flaked (1.6 SRM) Grain 4.16 %
1.8 oz Black Malt (Hoepfner) (600.0 SRM) Grain 0.73 %
0.75 oz Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] (Dry Hop 7 days) Hops -
1.00 oz Centennial [10.00 %] (60 min) Hops 45.8 IBU
1.00 oz Tomahawk [15.00 %] (60 min) Hops 68.6 IBU
1.00 oz Centennial [10.00 %] (60 min) Hops 45.8 IBU
1.00 oz Centennial [10.00 %] (30 min) Hops 35.2 IBU
1.00 oz Tomahawk [15.00 %] (0 min) Hops -
1.00 tsp Irish Moss (Boil 10.0 min) Misc
1 Pkgs GF All American Ale (Wyeast Labs #1272) Yeast-Ale

------------------------------------------

Looks like a Light Mash schedule 152 Sacrification

Ferment at 68 deg F.

This seems much the same except for the hop additions. WOW - IBU 131.2. Looks like an input error with the extra 60min addition of Centennial which I think should be dry hopped.
The Bear Republic website seems to be down, but all reference to the commercial beer give an IBU of 80 and also says that it contains 18% rye. Given this is a seasonal beer, the IBU level may change from year to year.

So the above hop schedule (taking out the error)gives:
IBU (Tinseth): 88.26
IBU (Rager): 82.32

Re: http://www.brew365.com/ibu_calculator.php

This seems to match everything up.

So, do we have some integrity now? I hope so, I really want to make this beer.

My new file attached with the hops I have to use. Boil size above is a lot less than BIABacus, which I guess is normal for BIAB.

Also, if anyone is interested the new recipe state Flaked wheat while the first one I posted had wheat malt. Any ideas on this?

Thanks Again
Ody
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Post #6 made 11 years ago
by PistolPatch
Love balli's post above. Excellent! :thumbs:.

And Ody, I really like the way you are absorbing everything. Well done mate ;).

Scaling of a grain bill is rarely a problem as all that is needed are the grain ratios (preferably given as weights) and an original gravity. Hop bills, where do we start?!!!!

Look, I think we need to go back to ballis's post because I am totally lost now sorry.

Ody, in your post above, you have a report saying 131.2 IBU's but later in the post you mention 88.26 and 82.32. Hold on, I see now that you say that one of the hop additions may be an error.

This is a really slippery slope. I could lie to you and say, the numbers now balance, good on you, go ahead! But, there are three main things to consider here (many minor ones)...

1. Any of these 'cloud' recipes, even if they used a terminology we could decipher, have never been brewed. I don't think anyone realises this. New brewers are naturally excited to put a recipe out there on the net. Little do they realise the consequences in that they are just contributing to another non-knowledge base.

2. Home brewing numbers are so bad on the net that you only need to juggle them a little to get them to balance against what was probably a fiction anyway.

3. Unless you are an experienced brewer, you really need to focus on the basics of finding high integrity recipes and learning how to convert them to your own equipment. (Easy peasy with the BIABacus.)

And there is one other thing. You don't have to be pedantic. You'll usually get a nice beer if you brew all-grain so don't be scared that you have ruined a brew by adding 20% less or more grains or hops. Oh, and I see we missed your hop observation...

Buy your hops at the start of the season in pellet form and freeze them. They will keep for several years.

:peace:
PP
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Post #7 made 11 years ago
by Odymate
Thanks again for the replies guys. You've given great direction and the questions you haven't answered directly I've found answeres to.
I am going to brew this today and I'll let you know how it all goes.
Interestingly I found another clone on the internet (amongst a few others) for this beer from around 2002 from Zymurgy.
It claims to come from the brewer and owner of Bear Republic. I suspect this is the original one that the others have derived from. The grain bill is a little different but the hops seem more likely.

Wish me luck I'm off to pick up my grain.

Post #8 made 11 years ago
by Odymate
So, that was an interesting brew day!
It was also the first time I kegged a beer which was a fresh wort kit from St Peters Brewery. 15l kit, Amarillo pale ale, no water added, just some extra hops. Force carbed and had a few while brewing, quite nice, I'm very happy about it.
So everything went well up to mash out. Pulling the bag that the wife sewed up ended up with a tear and a couple of cups of grain got into the wort. The boil didn't really get going. More at the lower end of a rolling boil if that makes sense. There seemed to be quite a bit if liquid left in the grain, the next bag will be a bit less fine I think
Completely missed my numbers. Pre boil OG was 1.048. Post boil OG was about 1.056 I think, because I melted the hydrometer tube putting the wort directly into it so not too sure. VIF seemed about right. No chilling overnight and will wait and see how it turns out.

Post #9 made 11 years ago
by BobBrews
Odymate,

Home brewing and the BIAB process in general isn't very hard to do. However? The first few brews may give you the "Nervous Nellie's" even though you feel prepared. The good thing is that you usually get drinkable beer even if you miss a few numbers. With a few brews under you belt you will be hitting your stride and be brewing like a madman. Keep up the good work.
tap 1 Raspberry wine
tap 2 Bourbon Barrel Porter
tap 3 Czech Pilsner
tap 4 Triple IPA 11% ABV
Pipeline: Mulled Cider 10% ABV

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Post #10 made 11 years ago
by Odymate
This is in the keg and I'll give a review next weekend. My second biab was a coopers sparkling ale clone attempt and suffered the same efficiency problems. But today I brewed a version of dr smutos rye pale ale and hit both my OG's ( pre & post boil) with volumes pretty close. Was a different home brew shop that milled this grain so maybe it was that.
Anyway, gotta love improvement.

Post #11 made 11 years ago
by PistolPatch
Odymate wrote:Completely missed my numbers. Pre boil OG was 1.048. Post boil OG was about 1.056 I think, because I melted the hydrometer tube putting the wort directly into it so not too sure.
Not sure why this aspect hasn't been answered yet Ody. There should be many members here capable of addressing/questioning what I have quoted above. My time is limited but you keep bumping this thread until someone gets you sorted on the above.

;)
Last edited by PistolPatch on 30 Mar 2014, 20:40, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #12 made 11 years ago
by balli1990
Odymate,

you should take your OG readings after you have chilled the wort. If you no chill like myself you can take tho OG before pitching the yeast.

It is best to measure gravity when the wort is as close to your hydrometers calibrated temp as possible as this will give a more accurate reading. The hydrometer temp correction tool (on the BIABacus) should be used if the temp differs form your hydrometers calibration temp.

hope this helps.

Post #13 made 11 years ago
by Odymate
Hey Balli, thanks for the tip.
I do try and chill my samples down to about 18c to take readings.
And PP, thanks for the help, I'll be right for few more brews as I refine everything, and if I still can't get my gravities and efficiencies I'll report back. Everything you post here is worth reading no matter what the thread is, and for every question asked you have answered ten others if I just go looking. Thanks mate.

Post #15 made 11 years ago
by Odymate
Hi Patrick,
Look I have to point out that this was my first BIAB and my efficiencies were very bad. My finished brew is very unbalanced. It is overly bitter, with little hop aroma. I also mistakenly added twice the black malt. It is as murky as mud. But to me it still tastes nice. I think it is a solid recipe but I can't suggest any changes as yet.
Give it a go if you are confident in your processes.
At the moment I'm in Thailand drinking Chang beers so I will update this thread in a couple of weeks with a more informative post.
Cheers O

Post #16 made 11 years ago
by patrick.danley
thanks Odymate. This will be my 3rd brew, so my efficiencies will probably be in the crapper. Nonetheless, I've enjoyed everything I've made so I'll probably give it a go. Have a good time in Thailand.

Post #17 made 11 years ago
by HbgBill
I know this is quite an old thread.. however, one of the original issues seemed to be the number if IBU's in this Rye IPA. The brew is one of my fav's and is brewed here in my hometown at Bear Republic Brewing. I haven't brewed it yet.. but, I will.


When I compare the calculations using Brewers Friend, I come up with quite a different set of IBU's than the OP.
For instance...
0.963 oz of Columbus at 16.3%AA at 60 min gives 60.1 IBU's
0.667 oz of Centennial at 8.9%AA at 30 min gives 17 IBU's
1.815 oz of Columbus at 16.3%AA at 15 min gives 55 IBU's
0.778 oz of Amarillo at 8.4% AA at 0 min gives 0 IBU's (according to BF.. however it does provide 4.5 IBU's)
1.037 oz of Centennial at 8.9%AA at 0 min gives 0 IBU's (according to BF.. however it does provide 6.5 IBU's)

So, according to the calculators, as I see it, you have 133 IBU's +10 IBU's if you add the little from FO and DH
The above calc's are based on Brewers Friend and the values you gave.

That is a lot. :) In fact, according to people far more knowledgable than I am.. 100 IBU's is almost impossible to attain. Your thoughts?
Last edited by HbgBill on 19 Apr 2014, 09:04, edited 1 time in total.
Bill
Hop Song Brewing-Santa Rosa, California
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