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Recipe review please for Founders Breakfast Stout Clone

Post #1 made 11 years ago
by phytenphyre
Attached is my BIABacus file for this stout I would like to brew on Friday. Any help and/or thoughts are much appreciated. Here is the site from where the recipe was taken: http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f68/founder ... ne-139078/

Thank you,
Kyle
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Primary: Zombie Dust Clone, 3rd BIAB
Secondary:
Bottle: Black IPA, Sock Monkey Stout, Hop Burst IPA
Wish List:12 months/12 brews

Post #2 made 11 years ago
by Rick
phytenphyre wrote:Attached is my BIABacus file for this stout I would like to brew on Friday. Any help and/or thoughts are much appreciated. Here is the site from where the recipe was taken: http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f68/founder" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... ne-139078/

Thank you,
Kyle

I'm thinking by "batch size", the OP might be referring to our VIP. Change Sec. B to 18.93L, set hopsock to "n" in Sec. G, and you'll notice the grains actually work out to recipe. You'll have to scale to what you want from there(which is likely what you did, but I do not see anything in sec. C to confirm).

Also, I'm not sure what you're doing in the hop section.

Here is the recipe he seems to be working from.

http://byo.com/porter/item/1857-founder" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... tout-clone
Last edited by Rick on 07 Jan 2014, 04:09, edited 3 times in total.
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Post #4 made 11 years ago
by Rick
phytenphyre wrote:Sorry, later in the forum there was a change in the hops. That's is what I ended up using.

I see, hard to tell what you're going for since there seems to be a lack of information.

One other consideration is that the black patent malt looks to be a substitution for the original recipe, which calls for debittered black malt. Carafa special iii would work well for that, depends which recipe you are trying to emulate. There seems to be a hodgepodge that you are working with, so there is no real way I can give feedback.
Last edited by Rick on 07 Jan 2014, 06:39, edited 2 times in total.
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Recipe review please for Founders Breakfast Stout Clone

Post #5 made 11 years ago
by phytenphyre
Thanks for the help. Just as long as I have the BIABacus filled out correctly, I will most likely experiment with what I have seen on the forum. I know there isn't a tried and true recipe, just as long as I am close I'll be happy with that. However, if you see any blaring issues, that is where I need the help.
Primary: Zombie Dust Clone, 3rd BIAB
Secondary:
Bottle: Black IPA, Sock Monkey Stout, Hop Burst IPA
Wish List:12 months/12 brews

Post #6 made 11 years ago
by Rick
I suppose you are waiting on the AA% for the hops, and I feel like it's obvious that needs to be filled out if you desire to keep good records. Just mentioning it because I feel I have to.


You have the mash at 152 when both recipes state 155, perhaps that's another thread variation you decided on, but worth a mention. Chiller also is set to be employed 15 minutes after boil end. Not sure if that's because you want to steep the coffee? Just mentioning it now just in case you look back in a few mos and wonder why it's not 0.

Those might not be blaring issues to you, but they are to me! :D
Last edited by Rick on 20 Sep 2014, 00:28, edited 1 time in total.
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Recipe review please for Founders Breakfast Stout Clone

Post #7 made 11 years ago
by phytenphyre
Rick, thank you! All of those items you mentioned are all things I need to go back to and look at. This is only my second time filling this BIABacus out, so thank you for pointing anything out you feel needs attention. I will work on it again tomorrow and try to get everything in order.
Primary: Zombie Dust Clone, 3rd BIAB
Secondary:
Bottle: Black IPA, Sock Monkey Stout, Hop Burst IPA
Wish List:12 months/12 brews

Post #8 made 11 years ago
by Rick
You're welcome! Nothing inherently wrong with any of that, you did all of the important stuff properly, so well done on that! I look back at my first biabacus file, and really wonder what exactly I did. It's likely impossible to get everything recorded in such a way your future self will approve. There is a lot of 'art' involved here, and there really are no rigid answers in brewing.
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Post #9 made 11 years ago
by phytenphyre
Rick wrote:I suppose you are waiting on the AA% for the hops, and I feel like it's obvious that needs to be filled out if you desire to keep good records. Just mentioning it because I feel I have to.

Only other thing that strikes me as odd, is the two packets of s04. One is plenty for this size batch.

You have the mash at 152 when both recipes state 155, perhaps that's another thread variation you decided on, but worth a mention. Chiller also is set to be employed 15 minutes after boil end. Not sure if that's because you want to steep the coffee? Just mentioning it now just in case you look back in a few mos and wonder why it's not 0.

Those might not be blaring issues to you, but they are to me! :D
I got everything changed you mentioned. Thank you for your help. Headed to my LHBS today and pick up supplies and ingredients!!
Last edited by phytenphyre on 08 Jan 2014, 21:18, edited 2 times in total.
Primary: Zombie Dust Clone, 3rd BIAB
Secondary:
Bottle: Black IPA, Sock Monkey Stout, Hop Burst IPA
Wish List:12 months/12 brews

Post #10 made 11 years ago
by phytenphyre
**CHANGE OF PLANS!!** Due to the fact my LHBS did not have the hops on hand for the B-Fast Stout Clone, I will instead be making a Zombie Dust Clone tomorrow. The recipe is attached. Any thoughts?

Also, using BIABacus, I am not getting my hop schedule to show up in my recipe report. Any thoughts on why this may be happening?
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Primary: Zombie Dust Clone, 3rd BIAB
Secondary:
Bottle: Black IPA, Sock Monkey Stout, Hop Burst IPA
Wish List:12 months/12 brews

Post #12 made 11 years ago
by phytenphyre
Rick wrote:You need to either enter desired tinseth or VAW in section D.
I just saw this after I sent you a PM. I'll do it now. Thanks
Last edited by phytenphyre on 10 Jan 2014, 01:01, edited 2 times in total.
Primary: Zombie Dust Clone, 3rd BIAB
Secondary:
Bottle: Black IPA, Sock Monkey Stout, Hop Burst IPA
Wish List:12 months/12 brews

Post #13 made 11 years ago
by Rick
Further, the recipe you copied from HBT used Citra with 12.4%AA .. you need the original recipe to reflect that in order to keep the IBU's scaled properly on future batches. Your new 14.5%AA will go on the right hand side of sec. D, which will automatically show you that less hops are needed since AA% is higher for this crop.
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Post #14 made 11 years ago
by phytenphyre
Updated...
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Primary: Zombie Dust Clone, 3rd BIAB
Secondary:
Bottle: Black IPA, Sock Monkey Stout, Hop Burst IPA
Wish List:12 months/12 brews

Post #15 made 11 years ago
by Rick
Oops, I mistakenly sent this by PM. May as well copy it here for sake of conversation.

Better. For future reference, you only need to fill out the AA% column. Not that filling all of the fields out is wrong, just unnecessary for the changes to happen. Of course if you used a different hop you may want to note that.

Here are a few things I see,

The original recipe is First Wort Hopped for the original 60 minute boil. You desire a 90 minute boil, so you are not doing FWH. Just wanted to make sure you knew that.

Also, original recipe on HBT states 65 IBU according to the brewers calculations. The BIABacus shows us a different value. It's more like 71.7IBU (tinseth) as originally written on HBT, so perhaps they are using Rager or Garetz. I am not familiar with those IBU variations. I see you entered 60 IBU, which is what 3 Floyd's lists the brew to be. BUT, we again do not know if they are specifying tinseth.

You have a decision to make on how to proceed, and perhaps questions to ask the OP on HBT.

The fact that there is a 15 minute hop addition (on HBT) prior to the FWH addition is throwing me off. I'm skeptical of that, as it is very unusual for hop additions to be out of order like that. Might be worth a question, this may be the reason that the IBU's don't match, provided they were intended to be tinseth in the first place.
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Post #16 made 11 years ago
by Rick
Ah, just spotted this at the bottom of the post ...

"The FWH addition's IBUs are calculated as a 20 minute addition to better calculate the perceived IBUs. They are boiled the whole 60 minutes. "

I knew there would be a reason, considering the amount of pages that thread has. No way a mistake like this would have made it so far. This brings us to 62 IBU's, but I don't know that I agree with the logic here. Anyway, mystery solved.
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Post #17 made 11 years ago
by phytenphyre
Rick wrote:The original recipe is First Wort Hopped for the original 60 minute boil. You desire a 90 minute boil, so you are not doing FWH. Just wanted to make sure you knew that.
Yes, I understand. And, I went back and looked at section D, the hop bill, and saw I didn't need to reenter the info except for the AA%.
Rick wrote:Also, original recipe on HBT states 65 IBU according to the brewers calculations. The BIABacus shows us a different value. It's more like 71.7IBU (tinseth) as originally written on HBT, so perhaps they are using Rager or Garetz. I am not familiar with those IBU variations. I see you entered 60 IBU, which is what 3 Floyd's lists the brew to be. BUT, we again do not know if they are specifying tinseth.
Ok, I'm kind of lost on this, I'm not sure I understand the difference between IBU, Tinseth, Rager, or Garetz, etc. My LHBS has their IBU set at 59.6. I don't know how I could get the most accurate IBU info. I wouldn't be upset just using what I have since I have it, unless you can point me in a direction saying it would be detrimental to the beer.
Rick wrote:The fact that there is a 15 minute hop addition (on HBT) prior to the FWH addition is throwing me off. I'm skeptical of that, as it is very unusual for hop additions to be out of order like that. Might be worth a question, this may be the reason that the IBU's don't match, provided they were intended to be tinseth in the first place.
I saw a post about this and it had something to do with perceived bitterness and FWH in BS2 calculations. Setting FWH as a 20 min addition in BS2 in perceived bitterness...as I remember off the top of my head.

Good stuff and thanks for the help,
Kyle
Last edited by phytenphyre on 10 Jan 2014, 01:48, edited 2 times in total.
Primary: Zombie Dust Clone, 3rd BIAB
Secondary:
Bottle: Black IPA, Sock Monkey Stout, Hop Burst IPA
Wish List:12 months/12 brews

Post #18 made 11 years ago
by Rick
IBU's are not really intended to be accurate. It's just one of those things that we use to communicate with each other. There are variations between tinseth/rager/garetz, so knowing which one will put you on the same page as the brewer.

I think in the Brewing Classic Styles book (which I don't have), Rager is used ... and I've seen many posts here warning the brewer of that, so they could convert what that means to tinseth for best possible accuracy.

It's all pretty rudimentary, and accepted as so. In the end, we're not going to notice a 5-10 IBU difference ... if anything it's slight. Just, when things do not match up for me, I question everything. It's just my nature.
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Post #19 made 11 years ago
by phytenphyre
I very much appreciate your finite eye when it comes to the recipes you have helped me with. I'll just keep the hops the way they are and call this batch number 1, trial 1 and see where it leads. I am guessing it will be terriffic as long as I don't screw something up along the way!! : )
Primary: Zombie Dust Clone, 3rd BIAB
Secondary:
Bottle: Black IPA, Sock Monkey Stout, Hop Burst IPA
Wish List:12 months/12 brews

Post #20 made 11 years ago
by Rick
You're welcome. And yes, it'll definitely be what everyone else has brewed in that thread ... those who chose to make it as written there. I didn't have confidence in the recipe at first glance, but at least now I can make sense of everything after we ironed out some potential wrinkles.

You're good to go! Enjoy, and make sure you give feedback on it! I have nearly 1lb of fresh Citra that I need to get rid of, and I never had ZD before. If this works out for you, I may give it a shot myself.

Tossing the FWH in at bag pull w/90 instead of 60 min boil will not change IBU's much, as the extraction difference is very minimal. If you already planned for this, my mentioning it is pretty redundant.
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Post #21 made 11 years ago
by phytenphyre
I'll let you know how it goes. It will also be the first time I will be using my fermentation chamber. It's going to be hard to wait 2 months to drink it though!!!
Primary: Zombie Dust Clone, 3rd BIAB
Secondary:
Bottle: Black IPA, Sock Monkey Stout, Hop Burst IPA
Wish List:12 months/12 brews

Post #22 made 11 years ago
by Rick
Be sure to check one after 2-3 weeks in the keg or bottle, I hear Citra aromas drop off quick. I only used a little bit a few batches ago, and it dominated the beer. This did not last, and basically it fell off almost completely which left the Amarillo and Simcoe. I was really surprised how that transpired.
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Post #23 made 11 years ago
by mally
The only other consideration I would mention... (I am not saying you should do this, but it is worth thinking about) is if you read this post

here

Your recipe has a ton of late additions, which makes me think it is very hop aroma & flavour oriented. As these late additions "may" contribute less towards bitterness, scaling them as per the BIABacus may cause a (albeit slight) reduction in this (who knows) :think:
Last edited by mally on 10 Jan 2014, 05:26, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #24 made 11 years ago
by phytenphyre
mally wrote:The only other consideration I would mention... (I am not saying you should do this, but it is worth thinking about) is if you read this post

here

Your recipe has a ton of late additions, which makes me think it is very hop aroma & flavour oriented. As these late additions "may" contribute less towards bitterness, scaling them as per the BIABacus may cause a (albeit slight) reduction in this (who knows) :think:
Thanks, Mally. Very good info here!! I'm glad you brought up that point, I was focused on bitterness, not necessarily aroma. We'll see how it turns out, I'm sure it won't be my first and last ZD attempt!!
Last edited by phytenphyre on 10 Jan 2014, 05:49, edited 2 times in total.
Primary: Zombie Dust Clone, 3rd BIAB
Secondary:
Bottle: Black IPA, Sock Monkey Stout, Hop Burst IPA
Wish List:12 months/12 brews

Post #25 made 11 years ago
by Rick
Excellent observation, mally. I suppose an option for this is to take the difference of hops and toss them in for a hop stand at sub-isomerization temps. That'll get closer to the original amount of oils/flavors in there without added bitterness? just spitballin' here.

it's more than likely pedantic to do it in this context, but hey ... it's pretty logical to me.
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