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Pliny the Elder

Post #1 made 12 years ago
by rdeselle
I am a fan of Pliny, please don't :shoot: me!!!!!, and would like to try making this clone that came from Vinnie himself. I just have a few issues that I cannot figure out in the BIABacus. Mainly...where does Corn sugar go? I am not sure if this is throwing off the ABV estimate and FG.

Any thoughts or recommendations would be greatly appreciated. This will not be a cheap beer to make so would like to do my best to do it right the first time.


[center]BIABacus Pre-Release 1.3I RECIPE REPORT[/center]
[center]BIAB Recipe Designer, Calculator and Scaler.[/center]
[center](Please visit http://www.biabrewer.info" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; for the latest version.)[/center]
[center]Pliny the Elder[/center]

Recipe Overview

Brewer: rdeselle
Style: IPA
Source Recipe Link:
https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... bleIPA.pdf

Original Gravity (OG): 1.072
IBU's (Tinseth): 181.5
Bitterness to Gravity Ratio: 2.52
Colour:
ABV%: 6.97

Efficiency into Boil (EIB): 77.3 %
Efficiency into Fermentor (EIF): 69.6 %

Note: This is a Pure BIAB (Full Volume Mash)

Times and Temperatures

Mash: 90 mins at 66 C = 150.8 F
Boil: 90 min
Ferment: days at 19 C = 66.2 F

Volumes & Gravities
(Note that VAW below is the Volume at Flame-Out (VFO) less shrinkage.)

Total Water Needed (TWN): 38.1 L = 10.06 G
Volume into Boil (VIB): 34.38 L = 9.08 G @ 1.056
Volume of Ambient Wort (VAW): 25.53 L = 6.74 G @ 1.072
Volume into Fermentor (VIF): 23 L = 6.08 G @ 1.072
Volume into Packaging (VIP): 21.3 L = 5.63 G @ 1.018 assuming apparent attenuation of 75 %

The Grain Bill (Also includes extracts, sugars and adjuncts)

Note: If extracts, sugars or adjuncts are not followed by an exclamation mark, go to http://www.biabrewer.info" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (needs link)

87.2% Two row 6999 grams = 15.43 pounds
3.9% Crystal 45 317 grams = 0.7 pounds
3.9% Carapils (dextrine) malt 317 grams = 0.7 pounds
4.9% Corn Sugar 397 grams = 0.88 pounds





The Hop Bill (Based on Tinseth Formula)

133.3 IBU Columbus Pellets (13.9%AA) 109.9 grams = 3.876 ounces at 90 mins
24.3 IBU Columbus Pellets (13.9%AA) 23.3 grams = 0.822 ounces at 45 mins
24 IBU Simcoe Pellets (12.3%AA) 31.1 grams = 1.096 ounces at 30 mins
0 IBU Centennial Pellets (8%AA) 31.1 grams = 1.096 ounces at 0 mins
0 IBU Simcoe Pellets (12.3%AA) 78.8 grams = 2.78 ounces at 0 mins
0 IBU Columbus Pellets (13%AA) 31.1 grams = 1.096 ounces at mins (Dry Hopped)
0 IBU Centennial Pellets (9.1%AA) 31.1 grams = 1.096 ounces at mins (Dry Hopped)
0 IBU Simcoe Pellets (12.3%AA) 31.1 grams = 1.096 ounces at mins (Dry Hopped)

***added the below hops as they do not fit in the BIABacus****
.25 Columbus pellets dry hopped
.25 centennial pellets dry hopped
.25 Simcoe pellets dry hopped


Mash Steps

Mash Type: Pure BIAB (Full Volume Mash) for 90 mins at 66 C = 150.8 F





Mashout for for 10 mins at 77 C = 170.6 F




Miscellaneous Ingredients








Chilling & Hop Management Methods

Hopsock Used: Y

Chilling Method: Immersion Chiller (Employed 15 mins after boil end.)

Fermentation& Conditioning

Fermention: Wyeast 1056 American Ale at 19 C = 66.2 F

Secondary Used: Y

Filtered: N





Special Instructions/Notes on this Beer





Thanks
robert
Last edited by rdeselle on 30 Oct 2013, 09:08, edited 2 times in total.

Post #2 made 12 years ago
by mally
Interesting Rdeselle; this is on my to do list and we have very similar BIABacus files (just checked).

I got my recipe from the article vinnie wrote "lupulin threshold shift, brew a double IPA".

for the adjuncts (corn sugar), go to section "Y" and under the ORIGINAL grain table header go to the corn sugar row & type 100 (FGDB) & 0 in MC this should give you a 100% FGAI & 46.2ppg.

I think you have it written (just not clear to me) but he states a double dry hop over 2 weeks, first up to 9 days then next for 5.

Let us know how you get on with this, I am always keen to know how close the recipe is. :luck:
G B
I spent lots of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I squandered
I've stopped drinking, but only when I'm asleep
I ONCE gave up women and alcohol - it was the worst 20 minutes of my life
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From Great Britain

Post #3 made 12 years ago
by Rick
I've also been playing around with this recipe on the BIABacus. Such a weird looking recipe to me (especially the 3.5oz bittering addition, and the fact that his grain totals seem off), always have been curious about it.

Too much of a leap of faith for me, so I'll wait for your results. :thumbs:
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Post #4 made 12 years ago
by Rick
Here's the report from my file. For the sake of usable Tinseth(and a cleaner looking report with usable numbers), even though the bittering charge is 3.5oz, I only listed 50IBU's worth for that addition .. since they say 50 is the max IBU contribution per addition? I never have seen anything to back that up, I've just read it a lot in my travels and it seems to work here. Anyway, I got the numbers close to jibing. All except this is for a 5G batch, not 6G as listed. I really wonder if the recipe is flawed?

- 7 SRM is spot on
- OG and FG are correct, ABV is closer to listed after adjusting yeast attenuation
- grain amounts nearly identical to original recipe
- IBU's calculate closer to RR's actual lab results (if they even use Tinseth)


[center]BIABacus Pre-Release 1.3I RECIPE REPORT[/center]
[center]BIAB Recipe Designer, Calculator and Scaler.[/center]
[center](Please visit http://www.biabrewer.info" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; for the latest version.)[/center]
[center]Pliny the Elder[/center]

Recipe Overview

Brewer: Russian River
Style: IPA
Source Recipe Link:

Original Gravity (OG): 1.071
IBU's (Tinseth): 100.8
Bitterness to Gravity Ratio: 1.42
Colour: 13.8 EBC = 7 SRM
ABV%: 7.79

Efficiency into Boil (EIB): 75.1 %
Efficiency into Fermentor (EIF): 64.4 %

Note: This is a Pure BIAB (Full Volume Mash)

Times and Temperatures

Mash: 90 mins at 65 C = 149 F
Boil: 90 min
Ferment:

Volumes & Gravities
(Note that VAW below is the Volume at Flame-Out (VFO) less shrinkage.)

Total Water Needed (TWN): 32.26 L = 8.52 G
Volume into Boil (VIB): 29.03 L = 7.67 G @ 1.056
Volume of Ambient Wort (VAW): 22.06 L = 5.83 G @ 1.071
Volume into Fermentor (VIF): 18.91 L = 5 G @ 1.071
Volume into Packaging (VIP): 17.51 L = 4.63 G @ 1.011 assuming apparent attenuation of 85 %

The Grain Bill (Also includes extracts, sugars and adjuncts)

Note: If extracts, sugars or adjuncts are not followed by an exclamation mark, go to http://www.biabrewer.info" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (needs link)

87.2% 2 row (4 EBC = 2 SRM) 6036 grams = 13.31 pounds!
3.9% crystal 45 (90 EBC = 45.7 SRM) 272 grams = 0.6 pounds!
3.9% carapils (3 EBC = 1.5 SRM) 272 grams = 0.6 pounds!
4.9% dextrose (0.1 EBC = 0.1 SRM) 340 grams = 0.75 pounds!

The Hop Bill (Based on Tinseth Formula)

49.6 IBU Columbus Pellets (13.9%AA) 35 grams = 1.235 ounces at 90 mins (99g actual addition)
25.5 IBU Columbus Pellets (13.9%AA) 21 grams = 0.741 ounces at 45 mins
25.2 IBU Simcoe Pellets (12.3%AA) 28 grams = 0.988 ounces at 30 mins
0.1 IBU Centennial Pellets (8%AA) 28 grams = 0.988 ounces at 0.1 mins
0.4 IBU Simcoe Pellets (12.3%AA) 71 grams = 2.505 ounces at 0.1 mins

Mash Steps

Mash Type: Pure BIAB (Full Volume Mash) for 90 mins at 65 C = 149 F

Miscellaneous Ingredients

1/2 Tab Whirfloc (Boil) 5 Mins - Clarity

Chilling & Hop Management Methods

Chilling Method: Immersion Chiller (Employed 0 mins after boil end.)

Fermentation& Conditioning

Secondary Used: N


Section Y "Original Grain Bill" Reads (superfluous or not, I filled it out):

2-row _____81%FGDB 4%MC
crystal 45 _74%FGDB 4%MC
carapils ___70FGDB _4%MC
dextrose __100FGDB 0%MC
Last edited by Rick on 31 Oct 2013, 03:18, edited 3 times in total.
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Post #5 made 12 years ago
by rdeselle
Mally, thanks for that recommendation.

Rick, Yeah our numbers are little different. I used 63 L VIF as that is what Pistol has "recommended" for other recipes on the web.
In this case though the recipe states batch size of 6 Gallons. 5 Gallons after hop loss.

I played with the yeast attenuation as well. I had to goto 85% to get the OG and FG to match the recipe numbers. ABV % is still off but much closer.
Looking at the details for the 1056 yeast, it shows max of 77% ( Attenuation: 73-77%) So I doubt I will get anywhere near the 84%

Anyway, here is another recipe report.

[center]BIABacus Pre-Release 1.3I RECIPE REPORT[/center]
[center]BIAB Recipe Designer, Calculator and Scaler.[/center]
[center](Please visit http://www.biabrewer.info" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; for the latest version.)[/center]
[center]Pliny the Elder[/center]

Recipe Overview

Brewer: rdeselle
Style: IPA
Source Recipe Link:

Original Gravity (OG): 1.072
IBU's (Tinseth): 181.5
Bitterness to Gravity Ratio: 2.52
Colour:
ABV%: 7.89

Efficiency into Boil (EIB): 77.3 %
Efficiency into Fermentor (EIF): 69.6 %

Note: This is a Pure BIAB (Full Volume Mash)

Times and Temperatures

Mash: 90 mins at 66 C = 150.8 F
Boil: 90 min
Ferment: days at 19 C = 66.2 F

Volumes & Gravities
(Note that VAW below is the Volume at Flame-Out (VFO) less shrinkage.)

Total Water Needed (TWN): 38.02 L = 10.04 G
Volume into Boil (VIB): 34.38 L = 9.08 G @ 1.056
Volume of Ambient Wort (VAW): 25.53 L = 6.74 G @ 1.072
Volume into Fermentor (VIF): 23 L = 6.08 G @ 1.072
Volume into Packaging (VIP): 21.3 L = 5.63 G @ 1.011 assuming apparent attenuation of 85 %

The Grain Bill (Also includes extracts, sugars and adjuncts)

Note: If extracts, sugars or adjuncts are not followed by an exclamation mark, go to http://www.biabrewer.info" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (needs link)

87.2% Two row 6896 grams = 15.2 pounds
3.9% Crystal 45 312 grams = 0.69 pounds
3.9% Carapils (dextrine) malt 312 grams = 0.69 pounds
4.9% Corn Sugar 391 grams = 0.86 pounds!





The Hop Bill (Based on Tinseth Formula)

133.3 IBU Columbus Pellets (13.9%AA) 109.9 grams = 3.876 ounces at 90 mins
24.3 IBU Columbus Pellets (13.9%AA) 23.3 grams = 0.822 ounces at 45 mins
24 IBU Simcoe Pellets (12.3%AA) 31.1 grams = 1.096 ounces at 30 mins
0 IBU Centennial Pellets (8%AA) 31.1 grams = 1.096 ounces at 0 mins
0 IBU Simcoe Pellets (12.3%AA) 78.8 grams = 2.78 ounces at 0 mins
0 IBU Columbus Pellets (13%AA) 31.1 grams = 1.096 ounces at mins (Dry Hopped)
0 IBU Centennial Pellets (9.1%AA) 31.1 grams = 1.096 ounces at mins (Dry Hopped)
0 IBU Simcoe Pellets (12.3%AA) 31.1 grams = 1.096 ounces at mins (Dry Hopped)

Mash Steps

Mash Type: Pure BIAB (Full Volume Mash) for 90 mins at 66 C = 150.8 F





Mashout for for 10 mins at 77 C = 170.6 F




Miscellaneous Ingredients








Chilling & Hop Management Methods

Hopsock Used: Y

Chilling Method: Immersion Chiller (Employed 15 mins after boil end.)

Fermentation& Conditioning

Fermention: Wyeast 1056 American Ale at 19 C = 66.2 F

Secondary Used: Y

Filtered: N





Special Instructions/Notes on this Beer
Last edited by rdeselle on 31 Oct 2013, 04:02, edited 2 times in total.

Post #6 made 12 years ago
by Mad_Scientist
Hey Robert, I just want to comment on the mash out I see in your report. I am a strong believer in the mash out.

BIABrewer.info has been asking members to record data over on this thread to help with the BIABacus auto efficiency formula; http://www.biabrewer.info/viewtopic.php ... =50#p31730

I have learned a lot about BIAB here. I was one that always did a 60 mins. mash and am now doing 90 mins. because you can get about two more points out of it. Also, after the mash, if you stir, and keep on stirring while you add medium heat to bring the whole mash up to a mash out temp, you can increase your efficiency. I have been getting anywhere from four to six more points from this slow ramp up to mash out temp. It only adds about ten mins. for a five gallon batch and twenty for a ten to your brewday.

I guess because of this, that's why I have my BIABacus set to: 'Adjust Auto-Efficiency by 9.0%'; http://www.biabrewer.info/viewtopic.php ... 950#p28072

Also, I like seeing you will wait at least 15 mins. before starting a chiller. I think it's always a good thing to wait 15 - 20 mins. when adding knock out hops.

:peace:
MS
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From United States of America

Post #7 made 12 years ago
by Rick
rdeselle wrote:
Rick, Yeah our numbers are little different. I used 63 L VIF as that is what Pistol has "recommended" for other recipes on the web.
In this case though the recipe states batch size of 6 Gallons. 5 Gallons after hop loss.

I played with the yeast attenuation as well. I had to goto 85% to get the OG and FG to match the recipe numbers. ABV % is still off but much closer.
I assume you meant 23L, and I agree that's a great batch size to brew if equip allows. If the recipe was correct, there would have been no adjustments necessary for a batch of 23L. Maybe I'm missing something, but that's what the original recipe is for?

Our numbers are not very different, actually. Very similar, but I scaled down and made adjustments for the visuals against the original recipe. I was merely using the BIABacus to build a theory that the recipe in the .pdf file is flawed. The grain totals listed there do not work for a 6 gallon batch as stated, in which you apparently had compensated for. I just hadn't put it together yet by scaling up from where I was in the last post. Perhaps this discussion was already had somewhere, and I missed it.

Still though, doesn't give me a great deal of confidence in the recipe.

I also wouldn't be surprised if you hit close to that attenuation with lower mash temp. I've gone well over my maxes by doing this, but I'm only 2 BIAB's in of course.
Last edited by Rick on 31 Oct 2013, 05:34, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #8 made 12 years ago
by rdeselle
Rick.... yes I did mean 23L. sorry about that. :drink:

what I think is somewhat funny is a Pliny the Elder does have Ammarilo hops. but this recipe does not (BTW: Drinking a Pliny as I type this :champ: )

Here is another site that has a recipe. This guy has been making this for sometime and says he is 98% there.

http://www.bertusbrewery.com/2013/08/pl ... ne-30.html

I really just don't want to deal with so much hop extract. never have but the way he makes it sound is it SUCKS

Post #9 made 12 years ago
by mally
This is why recipes that float around do not have good integrity. Often it is ambiguous or information is missing. :smoke:

I took the recipe to mean VAW = 22.7L (6G), and VIF = 18.9L (5G).
Rick - I dont follow what you mean by the grain totals for 6 gallons? I have a discrepancy of 129g of grain in my file. :scratch:

Rdeselle - I dread to think how expensive that amount of extract would be!

One thing I always consider when doing a clone though is; you could have the exact/perfect replica recipe of the original (and its brewing conditions) and not get close, similarly you could be off on the recipe and get nearer to the original.
In the end it's best to try it and judge for yourself.
If it isn't a perfect clone, I bet it will still be a great beer :salute:
G B
I spent lots of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I squandered
I've stopped drinking, but only when I'm asleep
I ONCE gave up women and alcohol - it was the worst 20 minutes of my life
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From Great Britain

Post #10 made 12 years ago
by Rick
hmm, perhaps that is where I am going wrong then. I take the recipe as meaning 6G VIF and 5G VIP.



I've never tried the Pliny beers, tough to find in my area. I made it to a tapping of PtY earlier this year, but upon arrival they wanted to sell me a single ticket for a $10 half pint pour. I left on principle, can't stand when bars do that. Figured it would be something to look forward to in the future.

Luckily Bell's Hopslam was plentiful, was able to score a bunch of that for reasonable prices.


edit: I suppose since this is one of few times copying a recipe from outside source, and having brewed my own stuff first I'm getting the terminology mixed up. Looking at Sec. D, it looks like VAW is what is accepted as implied volume from outside recipes. I tend to leave that field blank and tinker with IBU, if that makes sense. User error. :headhit:

I end up with the same result, just a different and roundabout way. Ugh, PP wasn't kidding about the need for universal terms. Oh well, at least knowing will save me some time in the future now. :thumbs:
Last edited by Rick on 31 Oct 2013, 16:37, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #13 made 11 years ago
by Rick
I had this recipe on the back burner, but probably won't brew it. Was lucky enough to get a few fresh bottles from a friend who was able to visit the brewery while away for Air Force duty.

It's a fine brew, but I think considering that it went viral when IPA's weren't flooding the market ... leaves it a bit overrated and underwhelming these days.
    • SVA Brewer With Over 20 Brews From United States of America

Post #14 made 11 years ago
by nicko
Rick wrote:I had this recipe on the back burner, but probably won't brew it. Was lucky enough to get a few fresh bottles from a friend who was able to visit the brewery while away for Air Force duty.

It's a fine brew, but I think considering that it went viral when IPA's weren't flooding the market ... leaves it a bit overrated and underwhelming these days.
Okay great thanks Rick.
Last edited by nicko on 16 Aug 2014, 01:23, edited 2 times in total.
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