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Black Gold - How can I brew the Guinness?

Post #1 made 12 years ago
by GuingesRock
Would anyone be able to help with information, ingredients, or anything at all, on how to make Guinness please.

I know nothing about it, so I would like to quote Skink if I may.
Skink wrote:Sorry GR, I'm just not experienced enough at beer making to tell you how to brew a good Guinness (well experienced in drinking it, though!) - I really come from a wine making background. Maybe the reason why Guinness tastes so good in Ireland is to do with the water supply, in the same way that the best British ales come from Burton because of the water. Auld fellas will tell you, as well, that Guinness doesn't travel well, and the only place to get a proper pint of the black stuff is in Dublin itself. I, however, work in a local club 60 miles from the Smoke, and the stout is heavenly - as one customer says, it's like drinking new milk! As for what I intend to make, I'll probably start with a bitter or pale ale, and work my way up to a stout, when I'm brave enough. Living in Ireland (and yes, it still rains a lot, mainly in days with a Y in them) and making a b***s of stout seems somehow sacrilegeous. By the way, we have some wonderful craft breweries over here now - just had a bottle of Blackrock stout, conditioned in the bottle, the other day, from a brewery in Dungarvan, Co. Waterford. Absolutely gorgeous!
Oh, and Lars - Howya!
ps. My question to Skink was: "Why is the Guinness so fantastic in pubs in Ireland? There's nothing like it! Guinness in Canada just isn't the same (I can hardly drink it) Maybe it is the Irish pub atmosphere with the singing and all. Maybe it's nice to be in the pub out of the soggy rain and Guinness seems to be the only thing people are drinking (I'm going back a few years...Maybe it's stopped raining there by now!). Is it nitrogen that does the trick?"
Last edited by GuingesRock on 10 Jan 2013, 18:36, edited 6 times in total.
Guinges

Post #2 made 12 years ago
by mally
Hi GR

I put up some info in this post.

I gave a sample to a Guinness drinker friend of mine, and he said it tastes more like the bottled conditioned Guinness as opposed to the draught.
This maybe due to a number of things, but i suspect the lack of Nitro to be the main cause.

Give it a whirl, you've got nothing to lose :thumbs:
Last edited by mally on 10 Jan 2013, 18:42, edited 2 times in total.
G B
I spent lots of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I squandered
I've stopped drinking, but only when I'm asleep
I ONCE gave up women and alcohol - it was the worst 20 minutes of my life
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From Great Britain

Post #4 made 12 years ago
by PistolPatch
Another thing to bear in mind with Guinnes GR is that, from what I have heard, a different recipe is used in different countries to suit the market. Over here in Australia, Guinness is incredibly bland and watery. There is no way you would even call it a stout. It's pretty much a plain lager with maybe some black food colouring thrown in :P.

I think the original Guinness is very rich and creamy. I'm not very skilled at designing recipes (only copying them ;)) but would an oatmeal stout recipe be a good start guys?

:think:
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Post #5 made 12 years ago
by mally
Its a good point PP.

Do you mean they do that to suit the taste buds of the region, or is it to do with matching specs to what is available there (water chemistry etc.).
i have no idea why they would change a recipe based on what they think people would like. :scratch:

I don't normally take notice of water chemistry advice so i have no idea if it makes a difference. However, i live near Burton, so i may have a good chance of having water chemistry suitable for ales etc. That may explain why i can make something similar to Guinness :think: & less like black lager :shock:
G B
I spent lots of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I squandered
I've stopped drinking, but only when I'm asleep
I ONCE gave up women and alcohol - it was the worst 20 minutes of my life
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From Great Britain

Post #6 made 12 years ago
by PistolPatch
I think it's to do with the market mally. To get the water chemistry right wouldn't be hard or expensive to do for them - at all.

Over here, possibly due to a warmer climate, on average, an easy-drinking beer is going to sell a lot better than a thick, rich beer. For a large commercial brewer, studies have shown, time and again, that the actual brand name carries tremendous value. In other words, you can change the recipe quite a lot but put the same name on it and, as long as the altered recipe isn't offensive, the majority of drinkers will still say, "Yes, Guiness is good!".

I'm guessing here of course but in this market (warm climnate), the majority market is used to drinking thin, refreshing beers at 4 C (39 F). (A very bland beer works well in such a market. I even enjoy a Corona on a hot day although it has no complexity.) If you sold what I think/remember the true Guiness is here, the average drinker probably wouldn't like it and the company would be taking a great risk in that the drinker might instead say, "Not sure why everyone reckons Guinness is great? Anyone want a Corona?".

Another thing to bear in mind is that nearly all commercial breweries change their recipes over time. Even subtle economic changes carry far more weight than a major change in the recipe. This means the recipe is almost constantly being distorted. How annoying is that!...

Twenty years ago Stella Artois was an incredible beer that was only imported here. I could never stop at one as it was an incredibly exciting, refreshing and complex beer. It's been brewed under licence here for many years now and there's no complexity in it any more :dunno:.

Maybe my palates changed but I still do find lagers and pilsners have the most potential to excite me as, very occasionally, you can find a wealth of complex flavours in them. Most of the time though, they are just bland just like the Guinness sold here.

Wonder if I can get an imported Guinness here???

Anyway, excuse the ramble GuingesRock, or should I say GuinnessRock for now :lol:. I'm guessing you want a rich, creamy, complex 'Guinness'. mally's given a recipe in the link he provided above. Maybe he can let you know if it had all or some of the above qualities?

:peace:
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 10 Jan 2013, 21:34, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #7 made 12 years ago
by Yeasty
I've drank my fair share of Guiness over the years, and its a great fall back when you visit a pub which serves crap ales and your stuck for choice. I've drank it from Dublin to Barbados ( bottled original) and it does vary from pub to pub. I think this has a lot to do with cellar management and serving temperature than the beer having traveled a distance from the brewery.Over here you can have it "normal" or ice cold ! the ice cold one does taste thinner.

I once had a megga session on a Dublin stag do where I took the guys to a little harbour village called Howarth just north of the city. We drank all day then hit Dublin on the night, unfortunately I can't remember much. :idiot:

I think that you need to start with the basics and decide what about guiness you really like, if its the creamy mouth feel an Oatmeal stout would be the place to start. It has a slight sourness so a bit of lacto may help and to my palate it has a dry finish so perhaps a mash temp of 66 ish would be a good starting point.
Why is everyone talking about "Cheese"
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Post #8 made 12 years ago
by mally
Very interesting PP, i wouldn't have thought of that.

Although a few months back i visited a craft brew style pub and hoped to try something like an APA, but was told they had stopped them for the Christmas ales. This struck me as odd at the time, as I would drink them year round, but now thinking about it i can see that they do this to match the season/climate similar to what you say. Who would want a rich, thick, strong dark stout when its 40C? (maybe Bobbrews)?

Anyway, i think the recipe is close to Guinness. Not sure if it is an exact replica. I have heard you may need to add a little sour beer to it as well, who knows? (just seen yeasty has mentioned this too).
I am glad i brewed it, but I would try different things next time, but this is just my experimental nature not that it wasn't nice.

:salute:
G B
I spent lots of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I squandered
I've stopped drinking, but only when I'm asleep
I ONCE gave up women and alcohol - it was the worst 20 minutes of my life
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From Great Britain

Post #9 made 12 years ago
by Yeasty
Just remembered that there is a Guinness extra stout recipe in Graham Wheelers BYORA 3rd edition. I'll knock it into the Biabacus and post it when I've got a minute. Don't know when as I'm supposed to be working and I've an evening class tonight and I've still to do my xmas homework :whistle:

His notes on the brew are just one line:

A world classic beer of enormous complexity and character

EDIT: Recipe can be found Here :thumbs:
Last edited by Yeasty on 10 Jan 2013, 22:29, edited 2 times in total.
Why is everyone talking about "Cheese"
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Post #11 made 12 years ago
by Yeasty
:shoot:

I think this would be a good base to start, The stouts I have done previously have always been of the Chocolate variety and have vanilla and Jamesons whiskey added :yum: They have always had a Liquorice note to them as well which I don't get with guinness. I'm going to brew soon so I might give this a go. I wonder if I brew a 20L batch and NC into 2 cubes one 15L and the other 5L. Ferment the 15L and keg then ferment the 5L. Once the 5L has fermented add to the 15L force carb and serve. I might get that sourness :think:
I've got a slant of scotch ale yeast WLP028 that might be ok.
Why is everyone talking about "Cheese"
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Post #12 made 12 years ago
by mally
Yeasty

DO IT, DO IT, DO IT :champ:
G B
I spent lots of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I squandered
I've stopped drinking, but only when I'm asleep
I ONCE gave up women and alcohol - it was the worst 20 minutes of my life
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From Great Britain

Post #13 made 12 years ago
by Yeasty
This has got me thinking :think: :think:

About 18 months ago, a guy at a place I do some graft at gave me some brewing equipment, 2 cornies, a couple of plastic barrels and a wine fermenter for a secondary. He also gave me a keg (shepherd neame brewery I think ) and a contraption he had made to enable you to gas up the keg and pour a pint. I think he said that his Dad was a stout fan and that he used nitrogen :scratch: . Anyway I just stuck it in the shed and forgot about it as to do it justice I would have to brew a double or even triple batch.

Now with No chill I could do 3 separate batches and cube, Ferment 2 and barrel. Ferment the third and mix.
Carbonate and serve :cool: The only problem I'll have then is drinking 50L of the black stuff. :drink: :drink:

I'll dig it out this weekend and post some pictures.
Why is everyone talking about "Cheese"
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Post #14 made 12 years ago
by Nuff
MODNOTE: Just moved a few posts from above to The Nonsense thread so you can chat more freely there. The posts start here. Cheers Nuff
Last edited by Nuff on 11 Jan 2013, 08:14, edited 2 times in total.

Post #15 made 12 years ago
by Skink
Ha ha, from Guinness to Cornwall...no matter the site, the threads always wander like a happy drunkard - don't you just love it. A lot of sense talked above...I agree with PP about brewing for climate. I visit Fuerteventura most years, and the only downer is the bloody drink - anaemic lager that has as much strength and flavour as my urine three hours after drinking it. So, one day, in the obligatory Irish pub (Mustang Sally's in Nuevo Horizonte - great spot), I tried their Guinness. There was little wrong with it, but after one, in temperatures heading for 40 degrees, I just couldn't face a second. Also, I have never drank a bottled Stout that tasted even remotely like draught Guinness, and the draught Guinness cans do contain a nitrogen widget, so brewing an accurate draught Guinness is going to be impossible for a relative newbie like me.

Post #16 made 12 years ago
by mally
I'll dig it out this weekend and post some pictures.
Look forward to seeing those Yeasty.

Actually, I am surprised there has been no chat from Bob Brews, i think i read previously he has installed Nitro, so maybe he could comment on the difference between his porters when carbonated differently?
Last edited by mally on 11 Jan 2013, 16:04, edited 2 times in total.
G B
I spent lots of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I squandered
I've stopped drinking, but only when I'm asleep
I ONCE gave up women and alcohol - it was the worst 20 minutes of my life
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From Great Britain

Post #17 made 12 years ago
by BobBrews
There is a huge difference in Guinness depending on where it's made for (US & Canada, Local UK) The shipping and freshness effect it also! With a million recipes out there it's hard to nail a good clone down. With taste comparisons between a (off) Guinness and your homebrew even though they taste alike they may not be close to the original? This may not make sense but I am to lazy to rewrite it.

I have a nitrogen tapper. But I have had a problem getting Beer gas (30%N 70%CO2) in a 5 pound cylinder. I have been using 100% nitrogen which I can get easily but it is not right. I have to carbonate the beer and then put it on the 100% nitrogen tapper. It seems to work OK but then after a while I have to re-carbonate the beer and then put it back on nitrogen! Pain in the ass. So as of the moment I have a (Guinness clone with cocoa nibs and coffee) on the nitrogen tap using C02 at high pressure. It tastes great and it is low alcohol (2.5%) so I drink it for breakfast! The Nitrogen tap is a bust until I get the right gas!
tap 1 Raspberry wine
tap 2 Bourbon Barrel Porter
tap 3 Czech Pilsner
tap 4 Triple IPA 11% ABV
Pipeline: Mulled Cider 10% ABV

http://cheesestradamus.com/ Brewers challenge!
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Post #18 made 12 years ago
by GuingesRock
How is this nitrogen thing done please? I wonder if it would jazz up any other beers? Joshua, do you have any good links? Thanks Bob for sharing your experience.

It's the Dublin Guinness I'm after making. I wonder if there is an Irishman happily brewing his own Guinness on here, and keeping quiet about it, for fear of marauders.

Top O the Morning...Not going to Australia any more. Ireland now! BrewMitta let it slip about the crocodiles, and PP says the Guinness there is like lager with black food colouring (at least I thought he said it, can't see it now)
Guinges

Post #19 made 12 years ago
by BobBrews
How is this nitrogen thing done please?
You need a nitrogen cylinder. A nitrogen distribution system and a Nitrogen tap. They are costly and cannot be (C02) reconfigured. This is a high pressure system. I have room in my refrigerator for a C02 tank and a nitrogen tank. This is not something in which you gain some big advantage in brewing. It is a little bit of a waste of money unless you drink a lot of Guinness or like to try weird things on nitro! Let me say this that a Bourbon barrel stout or a Hoppy Black IPA is fantastic on Nitro!
Last edited by BobBrews on 12 Jan 2013, 00:58, edited 2 times in total.
tap 1 Raspberry wine
tap 2 Bourbon Barrel Porter
tap 3 Czech Pilsner
tap 4 Triple IPA 11% ABV
Pipeline: Mulled Cider 10% ABV

http://cheesestradamus.com/ Brewers challenge!
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From United States of America

Post #20 made 12 years ago
by GuingesRock
Thank's very much Bob

From an old thread on here by Beachbum: http://www.biabrewer.info/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=875
Beachbum wrote:I've just read the book "Guinness, The 250-Year Quest For The Perfect Pint" by Bill Yenne. He obviously isn't a beer geek and a lot of the material was probably pumped into him by the Guinness PR department and it shows. For example when they decided to brew a lager and came up with the name Harp, they converted one of their breweries into a state of the art lager brewery and started brewing an authentic Bavarian Reinheitsgebot lager ..... erm hang on we're talking about bloody Harp Lager in the 60s here, almost as bad as Watneys Bloody Red Barrel :lol:

However apart from such hyperbole the book is a great read, and a couple of snippets interested me about current (2007) practices:

They run the beer at 25°C for 60 hours, then mature for a full 3 days
I was surprised to find that the major dark grain is roasted malt in the mash to give a brown colour to the wort, not roasted barley. There is RB, but this is added after mashing in the form of an extract.
There is also a further secret "extract" added later. Whaddya bet it's a small portion of Brett fermented stout?

I wasn't going to do a stout this year but after reading the book I was tonguing for a creamy rich stout, so did one today. I added the Roast Barley to the mashout, and used some acidulated malt in the mash to see if I can get a bit of that hint of lactic.

:drink:

edit: and I've got a good healthy starter of Wyeast Irish Ale 1084 which I am going to run at 24° - have done so in the past and it works great, I wouldn't mind betting it's related to the Guinness yeast.
How did you get on Beachbum? I tried to revive your thread before.
Last edited by GuingesRock on 12 Jan 2013, 00:59, edited 2 times in total.
Guinges

Post #21 made 12 years ago
by Skink
Insulting Harp? I did my drinking apprenticeship on the stuff, and it put me off lager for life. Don't ever holiday in Dundalk, Beachbum - that is, if you like your kneecaps ;)

Post #24 made 12 years ago
by Skink
GuingesRock wrote:Yikes!...Australia it is!. I can handle the crocs. I've seen the movie :)

ps. Harp is very nice :sad:

No it ain't GR - just don't say that to Dundalk people, where it's brewed :lol: . The rest of us natives are usually very friendly, if you don't mention bankers, Toto Schillaci or Thierry Henry...
Last edited by Skink on 12 Jan 2013, 10:28, edited 2 times in total.

Post #25 made 12 years ago
by Squared
Id love to get into having a beer gas line. My favorite nitros are Kilkenny, Guiness draught, tetley

I love watching the tiny nitro bubbles cascade into a dense whipped cream heady-goodness.

I know that BYO "250 classic commercial clones" has some real nice replicas to my palate. I'd check that out too to compare the recipe.
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