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300 litres BIAB (call me JUMBO)

Post #1 made 12 years ago
by sokinsilihok
hello guys, I am starting a project of building a 300 litre kettle, most possibly with gas heating for mashing and boiling.
I already have a handmade electric keggle 50 litre producing maximum 30 litres of good homebrew. but in the case of brewing together with a couple of friends spending half Sunday for making 15bottles for each is from my point of view, waste of time(matching the available days with the rest of the guys is a problem also) . so here comes the idea of making the "test" batch in the small one and "going pro" later with the jumbo kettle and keep a nice batch of 60-90 litres for each one at once or smaller quantities.
Getting a 300-400 litre (80-100 gallons, right?) 80cm diameter -80cm height is the "easy" part, making holes is easy also and then comes the heating element. gas or electric. For this quantity I would start with 10 kW of heating, but electric option would be difficult to handle in a house power system as I already have difficulties with 4kw, (splitting in 2kw in different power plugs) and gas which looks easy (I already gave a semi professional gas device) but needs to work with manual temperature checks for mashing with a bag.... (*pump circulating the worth also)
and OH MY GOD I need a 50-70 kg(dry grain bag) more than double wet. It should be made of a metal net holding internally a voile fabric, for sure double wall. and a Hulk to lift it (needs a moving construction over the kettle with a lifting "thingy" attached, able to lift this weight and maybe hold it over the kettle while sparging) After that is a chiller and at least 3 big fermenting barells
good plans, need cash, time and space. I can upload some of the draws I have made to give you the idea.
For sure I need your suggestions and knowledge, let your ideas join my cause.
:-)
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Post #2 made 12 years ago
by PistolPatch
sokin, this is the funnest thread ever!

I can do a lot of your numbers calcs for you, no problems. Before we go there though I am fascinated to find out why you want to brew so much beer in one hit. I got the going pro bit. Do you think that is viable in Greece or are we just exploring here? (I'm asking this because the more serious you are, the more we have to stop and think.)

It will be good fun regardless ;),
PP

P.S. Worried about Kostas. Haven't heard from him in two or three weeks. He was in Athens then. I replied but haven't heard back which is very unusual for him?
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Post #5 made 12 years ago
by BobBrews
The heaviest biab ever. What kind of crane will you need to lift it? I have trouble with 16 pound grain-bills!
tap 1 Raspberry wine
tap 2 Bourbon Barrel Porter
tap 3 Czech Pilsner
tap 4 Triple IPA 11% ABV
Pipeline: Mulled Cider 10% ABV

http://cheesestradamus.com/ Brewers challenge!
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Post #6 made 12 years ago
by mally
Sounds like a great project!

I guess you would prefer to go the "do it yourself" route rather than braumeister?
I look forward to any drawings you have done. I may be able to run some FEA (finite element analysis) on your "boom" to see if it can take the load!
G B
I spent lots of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I squandered
I've stopped drinking, but only when I'm asleep
I ONCE gave up women and alcohol - it was the worst 20 minutes of my life
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Post #8 made 12 years ago
by sokinsilihok
I am really happy seeing so many responses. give very me an hour to get the children to bed and coming back to you with details and explanations

I slept before children...but I am back.
Let me explain the reasons of all this first.
1st As I said it is not an one man project, for sure a hombrew of 200-300 liters for one person is exaggerate but imagine that we meet three hombrewers and share the batch, and possibly an extra friend to share the starting quantity, so lets say you get a 60 liter batch after that i have people that i need to share my beer with, so 100 bottles is not something too much.
2nd This project will be made by three people that spending time together on this hobby, but it is difficult to match the days of the meeting without arguing with wifes (enough said , i guess) so we need with one brew to make a descent stock quantity for at least a month.
After all making this, i expect to be cheaper than 3-4 100 liter kettles for one multi brew and much more easy making one big than 3-4 parallel. and the splitting in 3-4 fermenters is easy to make with different dry hops or yeasts.
Bact to the project
THE KETTLE
I attached a starting image. already looking for the cost of this and maybe some more details from the guy working with metal.
for sure needs a "table" with wheels (easier to move the kettle than the pulley lifted bag with a hard false mesh bottom
THE BAG
it should have a stable form, because i guess just fabric wont be able to hold such weight. So a bucket shaped metal mesh with fabric (voile) attached and maybe a standard sparging unit in the upper side for ease of use.
THE LIFT
I already have a large quantity of aluminum truss that can hold heavy objects + a pulley system for manually lifting (or with extra pulley) the bag even 150 kg weight,
It would be stable construction and the kettle will move under it.
NO CHILL
Many big cubes
CHILL
A big chiller for sure (no idea so far)
FERMENTERS
3-4 100-liter fermenting barrels, not something difficult i guess with blow off, until I get one more kettle of the same size.

All this is a step before proffesional, or proffesional already and I will have a look in the laws of the option to sell in bottles.
So this is the idea...I will update you when I have more news or details on something, thank you all in advance.
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Post #9 made 12 years ago
by GuingesRock
Rather than making a hoist to lift the bag out, would it be easier for you to leave the bag in, and drain the wort into a second smaller "boiling pot" through a ball valve?

I was thinking before about making a BIAB version of this: But with the tap and second boiling vessel rather than the hoist. I suppose that would be a bit more expensive. One small advantage of the two vessel setup is you could put another mash on while the first batch was boiling.

I’ll be very interested in your project. You will be possibly paving the way to BIAB in microbreweries. The time efficiencies of BIAB might be an asset to a microbrewery business. As always in business; time is money.

The microbrewery I visited, the guy said he was using “full volume mashing” I got the impression he was being revolutionary with that.
Last edited by GuingesRock on 10 Mar 2013, 17:55, edited 2 times in total.
Guinges

Post #10 made 12 years ago
by PistolPatch
Nice post sokin :salute:,

I only have a couple of minutes today but I have asked permission to post two BIABacus files here so as you can start exploring some numbers.

The first attached file gives you 215 litres 'Volume into Fermentor (VIF)' from your kettle using about 51.6 kgs of grain.

If you want a higher VIF, there are lots of ways around this. For example in the second file, I have changed the VIF in section B to 260 L and simply added 80 L in Section W to 'Water Added Before the Boil'. To get this means you would need to use 67.8 kgs of grain so those extra litres gained become very expensive.

So, the second file is not very practical - the extra 45 litres into your fermentor is costing you about 18 kgs of grain.

...

You mentioned sparging in your first post. In the second file, move that 80 L from 'Water Added Before the Boil' to the field above called 'Water Used in a Sparge'. You will see that doing this only saves you about 5 kgs of grain (see the right hand side of Section C).The sparging process itself would be very clumsy and messy. You need to ask yourself if the saving of 5 kgs is worth that effort.

Have a play around with Sections B and W but be aware that any time you stray from full-volume BIAB there will be additional costs whether it be in labour and or ingredients.

Gotta race,
PP
BIABacus PR1.3 - Jumbo Brew - sokinsilihok - FIle 1 .xls
BIABacus PR1.3 - Jumbo Brew - sokinsilihok - File 2 .xls
ADMIN NOTE: BIABacus Pre-Release files can usually only be posted in this thread. Please note that PistolPatch has obtained permission to post the files here.
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Last edited by PistolPatch on 10 Mar 2013, 19:58, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #11 made 12 years ago
by BobBrews
sokinsilihok,

Here is a pot that my club owns. It looks about like yours! We use it each year for a group brew!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... mTnGLoXxo8

Good luck! :luck:
Last edited by BobBrews on 10 Mar 2013, 21:25, edited 2 times in total.
tap 1 Raspberry wine
tap 2 Bourbon Barrel Porter
tap 3 Czech Pilsner
tap 4 Triple IPA 11% ABV
Pipeline: Mulled Cider 10% ABV

http://cheesestradamus.com/ Brewers challenge!
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From United States of America

Post #14 made 12 years ago
by shibolet
sokinsilihok,
i don't get it,
what your talking about will cost a fortune. why not just buy ready made 200L/500L Speidel Braumeister?
Cube:
fermenter: Sourdough Spelt Ale, Classic Lambic, Oud Brune, Barrel Aged Belgian Dubbel
Kegs: Bob's Black IPA, Blanc Blond, Soda...
to be brewed:

Post #15 made 12 years ago
by sokinsilihok
Shibolet,
we are discussing a cost plan not over 1000-1300 $
braumeister 200 if i am correct is about 15.000$ and 500 is around 40.000.
We are not discussing on business, but just hobbying
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Post #16 made 12 years ago
by sokinsilihok
PistolPatch wrote: Have a play around with Sections B and W but be aware that any time you stray from full-volume BIAB there will be additional costs whether it be in labour and or ingredients.
I had some tries, looks interesting when you change numbers,
Imagine that getting an OG of 1070 for 220L with 100L sparge, you need 82Kg of grains (maybe more than 130kg of wet grain in the bag to lift)
You need to double check many details before going for the brew day.:champ:
Last edited by sokinsilihok on 11 Mar 2013, 19:08, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #17 made 12 years ago
by PistolPatch
I'm not seeing a major problem on the cost side shib but I am on the method :).

Cost

I think it may cost a bit more than $1,300. But, even if we double that to $2,600, it is still a lot cheaper than $15,500.

Main worry on the cost side I can see is electricity. I think a unit like this will require new circuits to be run.

Method

sokin, I know I always write too long a posts but I am worried you are still talking about sparging. If you choose to sparge, this is going to cost you a lot more equipment and labour for the smallest saving in grain.

To understand what I am saying, you will have to play around with that BIABacus file for perhaps 30 minutes or maybe even more to understand just the grain savings/costs. (No other software will show you what the BIABacus will.) Once you understand that, read on...

If you choose to sparge, you will need at least one more huge pot, another burner and another two 'layers' of height or a pump. In other words, you might as well go three-vessel. But, if you go three vessel, you probably should have just used a bigger single vessel in the first place.

Do you see what I mean? It's a catch 22.

Please, do not sparge!

If you choose to sparge, you are really losing all the benefits of BIAB. So, make a decision to go full-volume pure BIAB or three-vessel. Anything in between, is usually a poor compromise. At this scale, that compromise is going to be a disaster.

My advice - Buy a kettle and burner based on your full-volume needs.

Work out exactly how much beer you want to get from your brew session ('Volume into Packaging (VIP)') based on the usual gravity beer you brew. Use the BIABacus to let you know how big a kettle you need. It will be a bit bigger than what you need if you go three-vessel but you only need the one vessel and the one burner.

It's as simple as that.

Why I think you are thinking of sparging.

Unfortunately you'll see post after post on other forums on how some BIAB brewers sparge. They'll even write that they get higher 'efficiency' but when you read those posts, you'll see major errors of ignorance. I fully understand those errors of ignorance because I made them myself for many years.

A lot of the behind the scenes work on this site I have been asked to help with has a focus on aiming to prevent others making those mistakes. Everything is very carefully thought through.

The BIABacus Pre-Release is a good glimpse of one tool the guys have been working on here. It's important not to just glimpse at it though as it is the only software that enables a user to make informed decisions and, when the user can't make those decisions, it makes them for them.

That is a pretty major advancement. For example, in your scenario (any new brewers really), if you use any other software you would have to write a completely new equipment profile for every scenario you want to investigate. You would also have to guess a lot of numbers that you can't possibly know until you brew, and then have to open up many screens to see the actual effect. (It's actually much harder and more complex than that - the BIABacus is the exact opposite).

So, sokin :). You've come to the right forum to get the best tools and advice to prevent you making any mistakes like I have. Unfortunately BIABrewer.info still has a lot of work to do to make the information and tools mainstream. This means that, for now, we have to do a bit more searching, study, asking and answering of questions than I know BIABrewer.info would like.

Doing that will save anyone though, a lot of time, trouble and money.

Especially you :lol:,
PP

P.S. Hope the above helps. Obviously I want to see this project work otherwise I wouldn't spend the time and thought writing the above. I think though that until we start focusing on full-volume, we are heading in the wrong direction. Before we can head in the right direction it is important to fully understand the benefits and logic of full-volume BIAB and the benefits and logic, if any, of three-vessel brewing. (From what I know, the benefits of the latter are only relevant to large commercial set-ups dong continuous brews.)
Last edited by PistolPatch on 11 Mar 2013, 20:47, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #18 made 12 years ago
by mally
To add to the sparge bit...

PP would normally say search the posts for "washing machine"
or you could take a quick look at the post here.
Last edited by mally on 11 Mar 2013, 21:17, edited 2 times in total.
G B
I spent lots of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I squandered
I've stopped drinking, but only when I'm asleep
I ONCE gave up women and alcohol - it was the worst 20 minutes of my life
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Post #19 made 12 years ago
by steliospal
Greetings everybody.

I am one of the friends sokinsilihok is writing about in the above posts.

For starter's , about the cost: I know that Sokin is very good at creating stuff (he is also modest and he won't even say it ) , so maybe he will able to pull it and create an equipment without having to pay so much money . Lucky to have him , right ? :thumbs:
Of course it will take a while to built it , but with your help , we will be able to do it much easier and better... And who knows... maybe we will be able to sell the beer we will make in the future. So it would be good to built the equipment as good as it gets, keeping in mind that we are talking about semi-pro equipment here.

As for the sparging part , we tend to disagree a bit about that part. He uses a few liters for sparging in a 25 liter batch , while I don't . I actually agree with PP on the sparging part . I don't believe it does him any good and I hope that in the future ,and most important for our little Jumbo kettle , I 'll convince Sokin as well :whistle: .

As for the burner: The burner would be a real cheap solution and maybe that's what we will do at first (I think that Sokin has a very powerful one) BUT , I am a bit concerned about keeping the temperature stable by using the burner. I think that electric kettle will do a much better job on this , especially , since we are talking for lots of volumes here. What do you think?? :scratch:

We really hope to do a good job and to help others doing the same and/or avoid several mistakes by doing a Jumbo Kettle (all rights reserved by sokin :headhit: :headhit: )

Απ: 300 litres BIAB (call me JUMBO)

Post #20 made 12 years ago
by sokinsilihok
ok, ok, I used the sparging word as "water to add before boil" so don't shoot me, I guess buying 4 sacks of grain for each batch surely you get a better price. (keeping batch price low is equally important)
and no need to spend time and equipment for actually nothing.
later I will check your messages above more thoroughly and get back to you

***this message is a SPAM but the sender is f#####g awesome***
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Post #23 made 12 years ago
by joshua
Good Day, Most of those bags and tightly woven Polypropylene, so the Powders do not leak thru, have a maximum load of 1000Kg/2200pounds

But, it may be possible to make them from a custom woven Polyester cloth that allows BIAB to work!!???
Honest Officer, I swear to Drunk, I am Not God.
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Post #24 made 12 years ago
by kostass
300L into the fermenter, WOW!!!
That's an amazing project and a quite difficult one too,
but knowing sokin I think we could actually be able to do it!

First of all, I think that Patrick is right, both on the no-sparge and
on the calculations that must be done before hand. Knowing what volume(vip)
you want to get and the max OG that you want to get, you can calculate
important data, like the trub you will get and as a result the height
where the tap will be installed etc.

About heating, the gas would be an easy choice but I would go with
2(or 3) heating elements of 4-5KW each, though you probably have to
change a couple of fuses on your electricity board(?) first...

A problem that I can think is getting a steady (step) temperature.
Based on my experience with the insulated electric urn, I lose about 1C
every half to one hour, depending on the weather(I brew on the balcony).
So I guess, having a non insulated mash tun, will make things quite worse.

Having a digital temperature controller(if using electric for heating)
might do the trick, but the main problem is getting a uniform temperature
in the mash tun so you get a correct measurement. You have to either continiusly
circulate the wort with a pump or something similar, so your temperature reading
is correct.

I have made many mistakes on my mash and mash-out temps when I first
started brewing with this equipment, by takind a reading with the
thermometer without giving the wort a good stir first.

When I get more time I'll try to think other problems...

*If this project doesn't work you can hire a very experienced unemployed brewer(me)
to brew smaller batches of your beer. I can do it 7 days a week/ 364,25 days a year :p

Post #25 made 12 years ago
by GuingesRock
Because of the smaller surface area/volume ratio. A larger vessel will cool much more slowly than a small vessel*. Don't know if that helps anywhere. I think such a large vessel would be less likely to need insulating.

Larger commercial mash tuns nearly always have a stirring mechanism though.

* Examples: 1) A baby will become hypothermic much more quickly than an adult as they have a much greater surface area in proportion to their body mass. 2) a teaspoon of boiling wort cools in a couple of minutes, but a 5 gallon pot can take a day to cool.
Guinges
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