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Problems with gravity readings at different temperatures.

Post #1 made 14 years ago
by iijakii
I've been using my hydrometer with use of a temperature adjust chart, but I guess that's still wildly inaccurate. Pre-boil gravity: Right on the mark. Post-boil gravity: Boom, good. Then I put it in my nochill cubes and the next day what do I notice? Massively far off from the gravity. Yay, I just made 9 gallons of water-beer.

So, got a refractometer with auto-temp correction. Hope this helps my recent bad streak, depressing.

[Moderator Note: iijakii, I have changed your topic title from, "Just bought a refractometer!" in the hope that it will speed up an answer to your problems. Best of luck Nuff.]
Last edited by iijakii on 17 Jan 2011, 23:26, edited 5 times in total.

Post #2 made 14 years ago
by Two If By Sea
I've found my refractometer varies a bit. You really have to have a good mix in your wort and then take a few samples and average them. Remember, the refractometer readings won't work for the fermented beer, you need another adjustment. Beersmith is what I use for the adjustment. You'll also want to calibrate comparing it with hydrometer readings best done at the calibration temperature of your hydrometer.
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Post #5 made 14 years ago
by Ralph
iijakii, how does the hydrometer perform in plain water?

I only use mine up to about 40C, correcting SG of course with that, beyond is probably getting iffy.

My 2c.
[center]Give me a beer and I will move the world. Archimedes[/center]

Post #6 made 14 years ago
by iijakii
Ralph wrote:iijakii, how does the hydrometer perform in plain water?

I only use mine up to about 40C, correcting SG of course with that, beyond is probably getting iffy.

My 2c.
Yeah I'm going to test/calibrate my remaining thermometer and hydrometer this week. I've already thrown away two thermometers.
Last edited by iijakii on 18 Jan 2011, 06:36, edited 5 times in total.

Post #7 made 14 years ago
by hashie
I threw away my refrac. I found the results were wildly variable and now only use my hydrometer when the wort goes into the fermenter and when it's finished.

Sometimes I think we can get caught up on numbers and forget about the beer.
"It's beer Jim, but not as we know it."

Post #8 made 14 years ago
by Ralph
hashie wrote:Sometimes I think we can get caught up on numbers and forget about the beer.
Quite right hashie- there's a good chance that a supposedly numerically- inferior beer is quite OK taste- wise. For example, just because beer falls outside established norms doesn't mean that a massive hop bomb won't do its tasty work!
Last edited by Ralph on 18 Jan 2011, 19:00, edited 5 times in total.
[center]Give me a beer and I will move the world. Archimedes[/center]

Post #9 made 14 years ago
by wizard78
I agree, I am sitting down now with a amarillo pale ale that when I brewed it, I rushed it, I overshot my mash in, humidity was high so my evaporation was low, my readings and volumes were out.
Gee it tastes good though!
[center]"All right, brain. You don't like me and I don't like you, but let's just do this and I can get back to killing you with beer."
[/center]
[center]Homer Simpson[/center]
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Post #10 made 14 years ago
by iijakii
wizard78 wrote:I agree, I am sitting down now with a amarillo pale ale that when I brewed it, I rushed it, I overshot my mash in, humidity was high so my evaporation was low, my readings and volumes were out.
Gee it tastes good though!

See, if I had that problem I wouldn't worry. I've made about 20 beers to date now, and the first 17 were absolutely fantastic. The last 3 are extremely watery tasting, though. The first two of the poor ones were from a thermometer reading about 15 F too high, I was mashing my stuff at 140 F instead of 153 - 155 F like I had planned. The stout is still drinkable since it had lots of body in the grain bill, but the APA is absolute water. I'm going to double-check my last thermometer and make sure it's calibrated correctly before I brew again, and then I hope this refractometer also leads me to another layer of protection by having correct and easy SG readings instead of the falsified ones my hydrometer was throwing off when using at too high of temperatures (even with temp adjust chart).

Is it possible I'm just retarded and screwing something up? Possibly, but I don't see how all of the sudden my fantastic brews took a turn for the worse. Anywhoo, I'm going to do what any stubborn male does -- throw money at it and hope it goes away. Did I also mention I'm going to start kegging? :D
Last edited by iijakii on 18 Jan 2011, 23:56, edited 5 times in total.

Post #11 made 14 years ago
by BrickBrewHaus
Going back and reading the posts in this thread, it seems like you're talking about two different things with the over-arching theme of "watery beer".

1) You're talking about wildly variable hydrometer readings from pre- and post-boil and a day in the no-chill cube. My opinion is that you should cool your samples to 60 F before taking a gravity reading (whether you're using a hydrometer or refractometer) rather than relying on the temp correction. It seems to me that if your hydrometer is reading ~1.000 for distilled water and is being used correctly, then it should work just as well as a refractometer. If cooling the wort is a problem, then try putting a thin stainless steel mixing bowl in an ice bath. Pour in the minimum amount of hot wort needed to fill your hydrometer jar (1/2 cup for me); it should be cool in just a couple of minutes.

2) You say your thermometer is reading 15 F too high so you were actually mashing at 140 F rather than 153 - 155 F. Unless I'm missing something, the finished beer could seem "watery" due to the highly attenuative wort you created by mashing at such a low temperature. Correct me if I'm wrong, but gravity readings don't shed any light on the fermentability of wort so until you have an accurate thermometer, you'll probably continue to create watery beer. In my opinion, this is an even bigger problem then variable hydrometer readings.

Hope I didn't confuse the main point of this thread.

Post #12 made 14 years ago
by iijakii
BrickBrewHaus wrote:Going back and reading the posts in this thread, it seems like you're talking about two different things with the over-arching theme of "watery beer".

1) You're talking about wildly variable hydrometer readings from pre- and post-boil and a day in the no-chill cube. My opinion is that you should cool your samples to 60 F before taking a gravity reading (whether you're using a hydrometer or refractometer) rather than relying on the temp correction. It seems to me that if your hydrometer is reading ~1.000 for distilled water and is being used correctly, then it should work just as well as a refractometer. If cooling the wort is a problem, then try putting a thin stainless steel mixing bowl in an ice bath. Pour in the minimum amount of hot wort needed to fill your hydrometer jar (1/2 cup for me); it should be cool in just a couple of minutes.

2) You say your thermometer is reading 15 F too high so you were actually mashing at 140 F rather than 153 - 155 F. Unless I'm missing something, the finished beer could seem "watery" due to the highly attenuative wort you created by mashing at such a low temperature. Correct me if I'm wrong, but gravity readings don't shed any light on the fermentability of wort so until you have an accurate thermometer, you'll probably continue to create watery beer. In my opinion, this is an even bigger problem then variable hydrometer readings.

Hope I didn't confuse the main point of this thread.
Yeah I'm definitely going off on separate tangents, and I'm sure this is reading as a nooby rant thread.

I realize that the major issue I've been having was the wildly inaccurate thermometer readings. That lead to a very fermentable wort that attenuated down to under 1.010 in one of my beers instead of the 1.019 that I was aiming for. I realize that the refractometer won't help me there, I also just had an issue on the third batch with my hydrometer not reading accurate even with the temp adjust charts due to me not being able to cool my sample decently. The refractometer should solve this problem due to only needing a tiny drop. The drop will quickly equalize to the temperature of the refractometer (Plus it has ATC).
Last edited by iijakii on 19 Jan 2011, 00:34, edited 5 times in total.

Post #14 made 14 years ago
by PistolPatch
I read the beginnings of this thread yesterday jak and wasn't game to throw in a comment as I didn't want to throw in further negativity on what I assumed was your excitement at buying a refractometer :lol:.

A few things have changed since yesterday...

1. Obviously the mods are reading things better than I do because they changed the title of your thread. That's the only reason I re-visited it and I am glad they did because...
2. It lead me to read more of the posts above and all of them impress me. Their is so much quality advice on this forum I often feel embarrassed to write anything, let alone rambles.
3. With the re-naming of this thread and then reading BBH's last detailed post here it made me think that you could be stepping from a brewing problem right into what I am going to call a, "brewxation." For me, a "brewxation," is a brewing problem that continually annoys you over a long period of time, is very hard to solve but obvious in hindsight.

I have had one major brewxation and it took over three years to solve. It wasn't an easy one to solve and I have never heard of it before but nonetheless, I should have spotted it a lot quicker.
iijakii wrote: Is it possible I'm just retarded and screwing something up? Possibly, but I don't see how all of the sudden my fantastic brews took a turn for the worse. Anywhoo, I'm going to do what any stubborn male does -- throw money at it and hope it goes away. Did I also mention I'm going to start kegging? :D
LOL jak :lol:.

Your words above really got me because they are so honest. You made three points and all of them relate to thinking which is one subject I enjoy even more than brewing.

At this stage you say three things about your thinking...

1. "Is it possible I'm just retarded and screwing something up?": This should be the first question anyone asks but you and I both know you are far from this. I've read your posts here for many months and one thing I know is that you think very well. This does not mean though that you aren't stupid :lol: . I have often been a very stupid brewer and I imagine continue to be in some areas.
2. "I'll throw money at it and hope it goes away": Yep, you are very like me :lol:. Sometimes spending money is a lot easier and less exhausting than thinking but I honestly can't think of one area in home-brewing where this solves a major problem. Spending money in brewing to solve a problem where the brewer has brewed well before invariably just complicates the problem.
3. "Did I also mention I'm going to start kegging? :D ": And you and I both know it is a lot more fun thinking about planning a kegging set-up than solving a brewing enigma :lol:.

Brewing a great beer is easy with the simplest of equipment. Anyone can do it. What people don't realise is that brewing a great beer can often get harder as you progress. Why? Because you usually add more equipment in too short a time, you invest in the equipment financially and therefore emotionally and then attribute any gains or losses to the most convenient but usually totally unreal factor. For example, three brews after you have been using your new filter does your brain even want to challenge the filter expense and the time you have spent religiously cleaning/sanitising/setting it up each brew, when you are getting such quick bright beer that still can be achieved with no filter?

The only way to get out of a "brewxation" is through careful, concentrated thinking.

jak, something has gone inexplicably wrong with your brewing. If you want to be like me, ignore it and avoid it as long as you can :). If you want to be less stupid than me then give as much attention to this new brewing problem as you can. Certainly don't buy anything more like kegs. (New bottles would be okay though.)

One of the best thinking tools around is to just, "stop and think." Just consciously doing this can often solve a problem in less than a minute, if not seconds. This is obvious advice but hardly any of us ever do it.

If the above doesn't work, then the second great tool is to act on available information. One definition of intelligence is, "the ability to act on available information." Re-reading the posts above and investigating any links would be a sensible start.

Planning is obviously another necessary and successful thinking tool. So, how can you plan your next brew day to eliminate this problem if it still exists? Is there a brewer near you who has a hydrometer and thermometer that you can compare yours with? Can you swap fermenters? There are so many questions but a side by side brew with a brewer friend can answer a lot on just one brew.

jak, I think I have got a bit carried away here. I just noticed it is past midnight. You have started a thread that I think is very interesting. There's a heap of great advice in this thread and I hope my long post here hasn't distracted you from it because the answer you are chasing could well be within one of those posts.

Really interesting thread for me and hope the above is not too OTT,
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 21 Jan 2011, 00:11, edited 5 times in total.
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Post #15 made 14 years ago
by iijakii
Yeah, I've definitely thought about it more since I made this ranting thread.

I still haven't gotten around to calibrating my thermometer, since I can't brew until I get a new bag, but that's going to be the main thing I will obsess over.

I've just had a "brewvextion" moment like you have, I guess. Ive had a batch not carbonate properly, then two batches mashed with a terrible thermometer, then another batch where my gravity readings were terrible. Most of it's due to carelessness. I didn't bother checking my thermometer on a regular basis. Basically, I knew I'd eventually make a poor batch here or there, but all in a row? Ouch. My pipeline is empty, I need a beer :(

I'm still building a keezer since I'm sick of waiting for bottles to carbonate and/or carbonation issues. And I'm excited to get a proper bag from Eion. I'll take extra notes and precautions during my mash this time to make sure I don't screw my next batch up.

Post #16 made 14 years ago
by PistolPatch
:argh: I just had a quick scroll through my last post here and nearly broke my mouse wheel :lol:. It's not hard to tell when I have had a hard, long day at work - just look for posts like that :P.

I'm too scared to read or edit what I wrote but hopefully some of it made some sense jak.

Regarding your thermometer problem, make sure you have one of the ones pictured in this post. These are cheap and their accuracy at all temperatures including mash temperatures has always been within one degree. Accuracy at mash temp is important - if your thermometer reads correctly at freezing or boiling point, it doesn't necessarily mean it will be right at mash temps. There is no easy way to calibrate a thermometer at mash temps so make sure you get yourself one (preferably two) of these thermometers.

I hope your brewvexation (did I really write that? :interesting:) vanishes on the next brew.
:peace:
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 21 Jan 2011, 17:05, edited 5 times in total.
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