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Απ: 300 litres BIAB (call me JUMBO)

Post #26 made 13 years ago
by sokinsilihok
regarding electricity fuses. For 10-15 kW the needs are close to a 25-30Amp fuse on the electric panel. but need to get the cable directly from the fuse or the kitchen cable which is what I plan to do in the house I Am moving next week. 25amp fuse.
regarding heat loss sure it would be difficult to get cold but also difficult to heat it so I guess after reaching the desired temp at least one small element should work constantly with a circulating pump(or two) to keep stable temperature in the total of the volume
as for the bag... This is the hard one, because a bag should leave the flow free through the fabric, it should be food safe, easy to clean and strong to lift.
2 cases in my mind. metal mesh holding the voile inside, or strong fabric belts stitched together in a wide mesh holding the voile stitched on it, all this hooked on a strong metal ring, to keep the shape. you can also grab the weight from the ring ("one ring to lift them all, one ring to mash them all and let the brew go on forever" Lord of the beers)
Last edited by sokinsilihok on 22 Mar 2013, 22:50, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #27 made 13 years ago
by joshua
Sokinsilihok, If you go to 25-30Amp and 15Kw, be sure to check the wiring is at least 10ga, and if you go more than 10m/30ft you may want to upgrade to 8Ga wiring.

It will help with Safety, But, Is important for Voltage drop, and the wiring heating.
Honest Officer, I swear to Drunk, I am Not God.
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From United States of America

Απ: Re:

Post #28 made 13 years ago
by sokinsilihok
joshua wrote:Sokinsilihok, If you go to 25-30Amp and 15Kw, be sure to check the wiring is at least 10ga, and if you go more than 10m/30ft you may want to upgrade to 8Ga wiring.

It will help with Safety, But, Is important for Voltage drop, and the wiring heating.
sure it is really dangerous, this why I go directly from the panel with new thick cable
Last edited by sokinsilihok on 22 Mar 2013, 22:49, edited 2 times in total.
    • MVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From Greece

Post #29 made 13 years ago
by mally
sokinsilihok - The only problem i can see with your lifting design is "Gollum".
G B
I spent lots of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I squandered
I've stopped drinking, but only when I'm asleep
I ONCE gave up women and alcohol - it was the worst 20 minutes of my life
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Post #31 made 13 years ago
by Dadoffrosty
Hi all on this thread.
I am new into BIAB and this forum, but it did occur to me the other day that this method has application to a nano/micro brewery operation. I am contemplating this a little into the future and while daydreaming, I came up with a configuration for the bag as being a double layer, the inner one out of the normal Voile type fabric, and the outer as a stainless steel mesh bag that had supporting straps or frame, possibly a braid strap ?-integrated into it to take the wet grain weight when lifting with a small overhead electric hoist on a gantry or roof beam. Such hoists are not expensive. I had thought that a 500 litre rig could be made up using possibly a re-cycled dairy farm drum and a thermostaically control gas heating system. I think the electric route Sokin is thinking off is too slow to heat such volumes, even 300 litres. :idea:
Anyway there's my 2 cents worth.
Cheers,
Dad of Frosty.

Post #32 made 13 years ago
by GuingesRock
Hi Dadoffrosty. I think that a double layer voile bag with webbing stitched around and under the bag and forming loops for handles around the perimeter of the bag opening would be the cheapest and easiest. I think the winch system would need to be on an arm to swing it out of the way and stop continued dripping or steam condensing on it and dripping into the pot during the boil. The engine hoist would work too as it has wheels.

I agree with you that it might be viable to incorporate BIAB principals into larger scale brewing, for efficiencies in time, equipment and materials which should equate to greater profits.

I think your idea of recycling a dairy farm drum, or finding some ready-made and available vessel is a really good one. It’s often much cheaper to use something already in production and subject to market forces, than it is to buy a speciality product, or have something custom made.

I get my bags made up by this company. Only $25 for a custom made bag. If I was going to go “Jumbo” I think I would call them and tell them what was required and let them design a bag with enough webbing and loops to support the weight. I think it would probably cost less than $200, and they would more than likely have it made in a day or two, which seems to be the norm for them.

Of course, with a voile lined vessel with a tap on it draining to a smaller boiling vessel, there would be no need for a strong voil bag or a hoist as the liquid would be removed from the full-volume mash vessel rather than the grain. But then it’s becoming more traditional, with the exception that full volume mashing is being employed, in a two vessel system.
Last edited by GuingesRock on 25 Mar 2013, 02:13, edited 2 times in total.
Guinges

Post #35 made 13 years ago
by joshua
Steliospal, There are MicroBrewers that use smaller BIAB type bags to add Color and Flavor grains that do not need mashing, Like extract w/special grains.

If the Kettle is big try them 3-4 inside the BIG BIAB bag, tye them off at the top, and Tea Bag them!
Honest Officer, I swear to Drunk, I am Not God.
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From United States of America

Post #36 made 13 years ago
by Dadoffrosty
Guinges, I agree with what you say. My idea of a stainless mesh outer bag was born from the idea that the inner voile bag could be swapped with another one that was already cleaned, with the outer stainless steel mesh bag being easier to clean quickly and then get another brew underway; a consideration in a nano brewery in think. Yes the hoist would be best mounted on a beam that had a swing pivot point to lift and swing over to a smaller vessel to collect the last of the wort, or like you suggest an engine hoist- I actually have one of those in my garage but I didn't think it would be high enough to lift and clear the side of the BIAB vessel. I think it is dependent on the proportions of the vessel I can lay my hands on, so will leave it until latter i think. Does anyone know what the wet grain weight to dry grain weight ration is? I am guessing that the wet weight to be lifted is around the 120- 150 kgs range, and it needs to be lifted slowly to allow for drainage time. I think the idea of maybe the idea of draining into a second vessel maybe out of the question if space is at a premium, after all we have to allocate space for fermentation, maturation/ conditioning in kegs for a few weeks, cool room for lagering if a lager is being brewed, cleaning area, and room to put your feet up and "sample" or "quality control" ;)

Post #37 made 13 years ago
by GuingesRock
Hi Dadoffrosty, Lot of good points there. Including the requirement for space to sit and chill with a glass of beer.

Just had a thought. The pulley or block and tackle or whatever it is called could hang from a rail or track on the ceiling to enable the bag to be moved around the building. I still think a voile bag supported by a stainless steel chainmail bag would be the ideal, but probably expensive. Failing that maybe an inner bag of voile and an outer bag of something like fishing net made from polypropylene rope. I used to know how to make and repair fishing nets when I was a kid, but can’t remember now. Do you know any fishermen?

If I was using an engine hoist, I would make an arm extension. If the hoist is rated for twice the weight of the bag, I think you could double the arm length.

To give a rough idea for the weight of the bag, subtract the Volume into Kettle from the mash vol in Litres, and that would be roughly the weight in KG.

So from PPs BIABacus example #1 that would be Mash Vol 360L - VIK 293L = 67L which would be roughly 67KG, add a bit for the weight of the bag itself and for the weight of the fliud in the bag that was slow to drain, but still part of the VIK and you would end up with a weight around 70 - 80 kg (to be on the safe side). In other words the maximum bag weight will be roughly about 50% more than the weight of the grain bill.
Guinges

Post #38 made 13 years ago
by mixtok
Reading this post makes me think that scaling to this numbers is an annoying limitation of BIAB.
Considering the ss mesh (with or without the fabric) along with a lifting crane we practically discussing a second vessel.
That said why it should be inside the kettle? Why not to use a dedicated mashing tun draining in the kettle.
I know people with 3v or 2v rigs to use the voile bag as a filter not to wary about grainbed etc. Such an approach escapes biab but it is easier to construct and handle, for these volumes at least.

Sokin , 15kW will result in 20-25Amps in a 3phase power supply (if you are lucky to move on house with 3ph) with a continuous thermal stress on fuses for about 2 hours to hit strike temp and another 2 hours to reach and maintain boiling.
In most 3ph houses electrical supply will endure this however it will need special cabling from the main board. On the other hand a gas burner won’t be that efficient in energy to water and it will result in more time.

That’s a handy calculator

As far as the sparging issue, I agree with PP in general but my question is what is the minimum w/g ratio to verge the elevated biab efficiency. (in any stage mashing, limit of attenuation, overall). What is your opinion on 3.5 w/g ratio.
Biabacus won’t change my efficiency if add the water hold from mashing for sparging instead of kettle top up. That said and according to this one could cold sparge escaping the need of an HLT and its gadgets.
I know this is not the right thread to ask these but I would like your opinions on that
Last edited by mixtok on 04 Apr 2013, 21:20, edited 3 times in total.

Post #39 made 13 years ago
by joshua
MixTok, I may be in the Wrong part of the Earth, but there are many heater systems in America that use 60Amp @ 240Vac to heat water in pools and hot-tubs.

Most parts of America have changed from 3ph(208v) to Bi-phase (240v) and our Home systems are normal at 200amp service.

I hope Sokinsilihok does have our type power system!!!
Honest Officer, I swear to Drunk, I am Not God.
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From United States of America

Post #40 made 13 years ago
by mixtok
Oops I had my calculations wrong 15kW would lead to 20-25Amps which a 3ph should handle.
But it will need special cabling from the main board. I have my post corrected

I didn’t know that America is using 2phase system and I don’t know how power applies in such a system but in Greece most houses have 3x32A (100A) fuses for 3ph supply or 1x25 for single phase. I think its about the same in terms of power

Post #41 made 13 years ago
by GuingesRock
I’m beginning to think if I went pro I would have a whole lot of 16 gallon pots with bags, in setups like the picture below. Each pot would make two Cornys, or a firkin of real ale.

I would ferment in the kettle too for a week or ten days, so no need for extra equipment, maybe a large malt mill and an automatic keg washer :party:
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Guinges
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