I am really undecided on how I would like to progress into AG brewing as I don't want to go down an avenue and find out that I am going to need more parts or things are going to become obsolete to me in the future. I have decided for now that I would like to get into it via BIAB as it seems to be far cheaper to start out with just the one vessel and build from there. Now before everyone tells me to search this subject, I have already and there is so much information on multiple sites that the information just starts to get a bit conflicting and I end up in the same place as I was when I started, very confused and over-whelmed.
I have a few questions that I would really like answered and this should really help with making my decision all that easier.
1. How much does gas cost to run? how long will a 9kg bottle last me for if I was to be only mashing for a 23L batch into the fermenter? This includes heating the mash water, doing mashout and mostly 60 min boils?
2. There are so many threads on the benefits of exposed elements for having a far better boil and that the concealed element in the crown urn isn't up to the task of boiling full volume but how bad is the concealed urn really for its boil. I don't want to modify the urn if I was to purchase the concealed element urn as I believe that the protection is there for a reason. If I was to go down the electrical side then I would be boiling indoors and I would most likely lag the urn. I have been told that the concealed element will sufficiently boil a wort under 1.060 but struggles with anything over 1.060. Not saying that it is a problem for me now but could limit me in the future when I decide that I want to make stronger beers down the track. Does anyone have much experience with the concealed or exposed elements with batches that are over that 1.060 reading? Does the wort really burn on the exposed element versions that bad that it changes the colour of the beer or 'caramelise' it? Also how often does the wort burn on the concealed versions and is there easy ways around cleaning it with the wort still in the urn during the boil so that it doesn't continually cut the element out?
3. How much electricity do the urns use? Is it comparable to gas?
4. How fast does it really take to boil 30L in a 70L pot using either a 3 ring burner (31.5mj burner) in comparison to an exposed or concealed element, is it that different?
Just a little info on my part to make it easier to understand where I am at. I am only new to brewing and I really like the idea of making better tasting beer and being able to completely customise it to suit my needs, this is why I want to start doing AG for myself. I like to challenge myself and I feel that going into AG brewing is going provide that challenge that I need. I don't have any plans on making larger batches as of yet (still happy to continue making 23L batches) but I would like to get into Kegging in the future so I probably still wont have any need to make any larger batches. I don't want to spend a fortune on a set-up as the more that I get into home brewing, the more that it is costing me to get set up for it. I know it all pays for itself in the end but I just want to go with the cheapest but most efficient method to get my foot in the door for starters.
I will be posting this on a few different forums just to see if there are different views on them all.
Thanks in advance
Regards
Aydan
Post #2 made 13 years ago
Hello aydanrogers, I'll answer what I can.
#1, I get between 6 and 8 brews from a 9 (8.5)kg gas bottle for 23l batches. I use a converted 50l keg and a 4 ring burner with a standard regulator. I heat the water from cold, do a 90 minute mash, mash out and 90 minute boil.
#2, It makes sense to me that a concealed element would be less efficient because it is not in direct contact with the liquor. I have never brewed with electricity, so these are thoughts only. If it was me, I would get an open element urn and a stainless false bottom to protect the bag.
#3 It depends on the rating for the urn. Let's assume a rating of 2400 Watts, turned on full for 1 hour it will use 2.4 kWh of electricity at say 28 cents per kWh = 67.2 cents per hour on high.
#4, it takes me 15 minutes to get 35 litres from mashout to a good boil with a 4 ring burner. I can't say what electric would do.
#1, I get between 6 and 8 brews from a 9 (8.5)kg gas bottle for 23l batches. I use a converted 50l keg and a 4 ring burner with a standard regulator. I heat the water from cold, do a 90 minute mash, mash out and 90 minute boil.
#2, It makes sense to me that a concealed element would be less efficient because it is not in direct contact with the liquor. I have never brewed with electricity, so these are thoughts only. If it was me, I would get an open element urn and a stainless false bottom to protect the bag.
#3 It depends on the rating for the urn. Let's assume a rating of 2400 Watts, turned on full for 1 hour it will use 2.4 kWh of electricity at say 28 cents per kWh = 67.2 cents per hour on high.
#4, it takes me 15 minutes to get 35 litres from mashout to a good boil with a 4 ring burner. I can't say what electric would do.
"It's beer Jim, but not as we know it."
Post #3 made 13 years ago
If you are planning on brewing inside with the urn make sure you have good ventilation as a fair bit of steam is created during the boil (when I did a test boil of water in the laundry the smoke detectors went off, now I brew under the patio)
#2 I have an exposed element and it boils fine.
It is a bit of cleaning to get around all the bits of the element so take that into account too I guess. Like a few people here I use a roasting rack to protect the bag from scorching (I dont have any problems with wort scorching on the element).
#4 I can dig up times when I get home, but for rough estimate: I usually heat to mashout temp of 77c while stirring with the bag in urn, then raise and drain, with a bit of squeezing etc and leave the bag to drain. The wort is normally at a boil a short time after I have finished draining the bag. (In other words I dont have any need to get to the boil faster with an urn)
On this topic, one advantage of electricity is you can use an electrical timer and a temperature controller to preheat your strike water before you wake up (so if you cracked your grains the night before, wake up dump the grains into the preheated water then go have a coffee/breakfast or go back to sleep for 90 minutes and then you will be ready to drain the bag etc)
One disadvantage: If you wife turns on the clothes dryer and the kettle to make a tea while you are boiling, you will probably trip your circuit breaker.
#2 I have an exposed element and it boils fine.
It is a bit of cleaning to get around all the bits of the element so take that into account too I guess. Like a few people here I use a roasting rack to protect the bag from scorching (I dont have any problems with wort scorching on the element).
#4 I can dig up times when I get home, but for rough estimate: I usually heat to mashout temp of 77c while stirring with the bag in urn, then raise and drain, with a bit of squeezing etc and leave the bag to drain. The wort is normally at a boil a short time after I have finished draining the bag. (In other words I dont have any need to get to the boil faster with an urn)
On this topic, one advantage of electricity is you can use an electrical timer and a temperature controller to preheat your strike water before you wake up (so if you cracked your grains the night before, wake up dump the grains into the preheated water then go have a coffee/breakfast or go back to sleep for 90 minutes and then you will be ready to drain the bag etc)
One disadvantage: If you wife turns on the clothes dryer and the kettle to make a tea while you are boiling, you will probably trip your circuit breaker.
Post #4 made 13 years ago
depends on how much your pay for gas, what burner/reg you have and how hard you boil.aydanrogers wrote:I am really undecided on how I would like to progress into AG brewing as I don't want to go down an avenue and find out that I am going to need more parts or things are going to become obsolete to me in the future. I have decided for now that I would like to get into it via BIAB as it seems to be far cheaper to start out with just the one vessel and build from there. Now before everyone tells me to search this subject, I have already and there is so much information on multiple sites that the information just starts to get a bit conflicting and I end up in the same place as I was when I started, very confused and over-whelmed.
I have a few questions that I would really like answered and this should really help with making my decision all that easier.
1. How much does gas cost to run? how long will a 9kg bottle last me for if I was to be only mashing for a 23L batch into the fermenter? This includes heating the mash water, doing mashout and mostly 60 min boils?
When I do single batches, I use a 50L pot, an Italian Spiral Burner with Medium Pressure (208kpa) reg. I mash and boil for 90 mins each. and do a mashout.
I can raise from 66 to 78C in about 7 minutes with a gentle raise. I can raise to boil in another 10-15 minutes or so.
I get 4+ brews out of a 9KG bottle, which I pay 15$ to refill.
So, that's <4$ gas per batch.
I would recommend a 70L pot if you think you may end up doing double batches one day. And I would recommend a good burner too
no experience with electric brewing.2. There are so many threads on the benefits of exposed elements for having a far better boil and that the concealed element in the crown urn isn't up to the task of boiling full volume but how bad is the concealed urn really for its boil. I don't want to modify the urn if I was to purchase the concealed element urn as I believe that the protection is there for a reason. If I was to go down the electrical side then I would be boiling indoors and I would most likely lag the urn. I have been told that the concealed element will sufficiently boil a wort under 1.060 but struggles with anything over 1.060. Not saying that it is a problem for me now but could limit me in the future when I decide that I want to make stronger beers down the track. Does anyone have much experience with the concealed or exposed elements with batches that are over that 1.060 reading? Does the wort really burn on the exposed element versions that bad that it changes the colour of the beer or 'caramelise' it? Also how often does the wort burn on the concealed versions and is there easy ways around cleaning it with the wort still in the urn during the boil so that it doesn't continually cut the element out?
I can raise temps about 2C/minute quite easily. Could probably do 3C in a single batch if I wanted. When boiling in my 98L pot for triple batches its a bit harder to raise the temps that fast3. How much electricity do the urns use? Is it comparable to gas?
4. How fast does it really take to boil 30L in a 70L pot using either a 3 ring burner (31.5mj burner) in comparison to an exposed or concealed element, is it that different?
Just a little info on my part to make it easier to understand where I am at. I am only new to brewing and I really like the idea of making better tasting beer and being able to completely customise it to suit my needs, this is why I want to start doing AG for myself. I like to challenge myself and I feel that going into AG brewing is going provide that challenge that I need. I don't have any plans on making larger batches as of yet (still happy to continue making 23L batches) but I would like to get into Kegging in the future so I probably still wont have any need to make any larger batches. I don't want to spend a fortune on a set-up as the more that I get into home brewing, the more that it is costing me to get set up for it. I know it all pays for itself in the end but I just want to go with the cheapest but most efficient method to get my foot in the door for starters.
I will be posting this on a few different forums just to see if there are different views on them all.
Thanks in advance
Regards
Aydan
If you're in Australia, I would suggest this pot
http://www.craftbrewer.com.au/shop/details.asp?PID=4246" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Perahps get a bag too...
And I got my burner and reg here
http://www.beerbelly.com.au/burners.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
And I got my Stainless Jiggle Siphon and Silicon hose for No-Chill from here
http://www.gryphonbrewing.com.au/store/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... a49b0d3cf6
(Of course, the craftbrewer pot comes with a hole for a tap, so no need to siphon)
Last edited by stux on 08 May 2012, 16:05, edited 3 times in total.
Fermenting: -
Cubed: -
Stirplate: -
On Tap: NS Summer Ale III (WY1272), Landlord III (WY1469), Fighter's 70/- II (WY1272), Roast Porter (WY1028), Cider, Soda
Next: Munich Helles III
5/7/12
Cubed: -
Stirplate: -
On Tap: NS Summer Ale III (WY1272), Landlord III (WY1469), Fighter's 70/- II (WY1272), Roast Porter (WY1028), Cider, Soda
Next: Munich Helles III
5/7/12
Post #5 made 13 years ago
Hi Aydan
I've got a 70L ss kettle and use it with a "Italian" spiral burner (like the one in stux post) and and variable regulator (50-200mBar).
I'm also getting around 7-8 batches with 9kg of propane. I do 90 min boils. I'm able to heat water/wort at a rate of just over 1C(34F)/minute - take in consideration that the ambient temps that I brew in is around 8C(46F).
I've brewed 4 times with a 20L urn with a concealed element and I did not have any problems with getting it to boil. But that was a 20L urn...
I've got a 70L ss kettle and use it with a "Italian" spiral burner (like the one in stux post) and and variable regulator (50-200mBar).
I'm also getting around 7-8 batches with 9kg of propane. I do 90 min boils. I'm able to heat water/wort at a rate of just over 1C(34F)/minute - take in consideration that the ambient temps that I brew in is around 8C(46F).
I've brewed 4 times with a 20L urn with a concealed element and I did not have any problems with getting it to boil. But that was a 20L urn...
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- SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From Swaziland
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Post #6 made 13 years ago
aydanrogers,
I brew with propane. I have never brewed with electricity but it is interesting to me? The only thing I want to say is that I do a lot of club brews or go to club events to brew! That's harder to do with electricity. I brew in parks and on lakes? portability is important to me! http://youtu.be/RQgOa5u1fes If you brew alone or don't care to join a brewing club than electricity may be all you need!
I brew with propane. I have never brewed with electricity but it is interesting to me? The only thing I want to say is that I do a lot of club brews or go to club events to brew! That's harder to do with electricity. I brew in parks and on lakes? portability is important to me! http://youtu.be/RQgOa5u1fes If you brew alone or don't care to join a brewing club than electricity may be all you need!
Last edited by BobBrews on 08 May 2012, 21:06, edited 3 times in total.
tap 1 Raspberry wine
tap 2 Bourbon Barrel Porter
tap 3 Czech Pilsner
tap 4 Triple IPA 11% ABV
Pipeline: Mulled Cider 10% ABV
http://cheesestradamus.com/ Brewers challenge!
tap 2 Bourbon Barrel Porter
tap 3 Czech Pilsner
tap 4 Triple IPA 11% ABV
Pipeline: Mulled Cider 10% ABV
http://cheesestradamus.com/ Brewers challenge!
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- SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From United States of America
-
