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Another Cube Question

Post #1 made 11 years ago
by HbgBill
After chatting on line with BigBobby..and watching viewing some of the links he sent.. I started thinking (yah, I know :) ) When hot wort is transferred into the cube/pail and squeezed to remove air and securing the lid.. the question comes up..

Is there a way to keep the pail from collapsing as it cools and possibly resulting in a permanent 'dent' in the pail??? The pail Bob recommended, the US Plastics Winpac, has a cap that has a pipe thread under a plug.

So, I was wondering if there was a way to go from that 3/4" FNPT to a Ball Lock "In" port. The threads are vastly different.

I guess I could get a brass 3/4" close nipple and see of there is an adapter that wold go to the 11/32" (or whatever it is) thread in the "In" fitting.

The thought here is that I wouldn't have to squeeze out the air.. just hook up the CO2 to the fitting and flood the void with gas and keep a very low pressure of < 10# while it's cooling?

Any thoughts? Am I trying to overthink this? My usual overkill?
Bill
Hop Song Brewing-Santa Rosa, California

Post #2 made 11 years ago
by mally
I like to keep things as simple as possible so its not something I would do, but it may work, who knows.. :scratch:

In my experience the "dented" cube when it is cold soon goes back into shape on the next hot wort refill, so maybe you are over-thinking?
G B
I spent lots of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I squandered
I've stopped drinking, but only when I'm asleep
I ONCE gave up women and alcohol - it was the worst 20 minutes of my life
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From Great Britain

Post #3 made 11 years ago
by balli1990
Hi HgbBill,

Allot of no chillers no longer squeeze there cubes, there is no real evidence to suggest there must be no air in it. The idea is that the heat will ensure that any nasties in the air will be destroyed, as well as in the cube, although I still suggest you sanitise. Deformation shouldn't be a problem if you only squeeze a little or not at all.

What I usually do is just squeeze a little so if there is an infection I would know because the sides would bulge out rather than collapse in once its cool.

Balli.

Post #4 made 11 years ago
by HbgBill
Thanks folks.. as usual, I'm probably overthinking this. I've ordered two cubes, a wrench and two spare caps. I'll hold off on any mods for a while.
Bill
Hop Song Brewing-Santa Rosa, California

Post #5 made 11 years ago
by PistolPatch
Most cubes come with the thread part untapped/sealed. Personally, I would never break that seal. All it will do is lead to infection. Taps on fermentors and kettles are bad enough risks. On a no-chill cube, there is no need for them. Don't do it.

If you want to cool your wort without a chiller, cool it in the kettle overnight. Why clean a cube as well? It's not as though you are doing anything different most of you.

If you want to store it for a while, for God's sake, don't introduce threads or taps into your cube.

Make sense?
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Post #6 made 11 years ago
by HbgBill
Yessir.. thanks.. All good pointers.. I'm learnin' :)

I have a thick head but it is permeable... given time and pressure... heehee.
Bill
Hop Song Brewing-Santa Rosa, California

Post #7 made 11 years ago
by mally
Sorry for Hi-Jacking this thread HbgBill but I have a question that is "another cube question" too so at least should be still on topic.

Does anybody that no-chills in a cube avoid trub going into the cube? (I don't avoid it, but then I do not store them for long periods either).
If you do, is there much cold break?

Is there any difference between hot & cold break in terms of how it affects quality etc when in contact with wort? (again there may be no difference in the short term, but maybe has an effect for long term storage)?

Just wondering if there is a good reason not to put your whole wort, trub and all into the cube if you are going to end up with some trub anyway (albeit a smaller amount).
G B
I spent lots of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I squandered
I've stopped drinking, but only when I'm asleep
I ONCE gave up women and alcohol - it was the worst 20 minutes of my life
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From Great Britain

Post #8 made 11 years ago
by dexter.rose
mally wrote:In my experience the "dented" cube when it is cold soon goes back into shape on the next hot wort refill...
I totally agree. This has been my experience as well.
Last edited by dexter.rose on 08 May 2014, 04:15, edited 1 time in total.

Post #9 made 11 years ago
by Rick
Yeah, I was worried about this after my first no-chill batch. I just brewed last night, and it popped right out after I filled it with hot wort.

Dents do not stand a chance with that kind of heat.
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Post #10 made 11 years ago
by BobBrews
mally,
Does anybody that no-chills in a cube avoid trub going into the cube? (I don't avoid it, but then I do not store them for long periods either).
If you do, is there much cold break?
I don't worry about trub going in the no-chill unless it's for long time storage. As I normally pitch within 24 hours there are no worries at all. If I wait 10 minutes for the hot wort to settle? I leave some trub behind in the pot. If I am storing for a extended time (waiting for a currently fermenting yeast cake to become free?) I will add a little extra water to the boil and let the trub settle for 15 minutes, But! I will leave some extra wort-trub-hotbreak in the pot. The Irish Moss will do it's magic and pull the trub out. In short, I just leave more trub in the pot. Maybe I am just wasting wort and time but why not try?

Is there any difference between hot & cold break in terms of how it affects quality etc when in contact with wort? (again there may be no difference in the short term, but maybe has an effect for long term storage)?
Stay tuned! I am working on a experiment testing long term storage Flavor and taste with Basic Brewing Radio.
Leaving beer on the trub for two or three weeks has no effect on the beers taste. Past experiments on BBR showed that some people saw an improvement on longer stored beers (on the trub in the fermenter) but some saw no difference? A tie!
Just wondering if there is a good reason not to put your whole wort, trub and all into the cube if you are going to end up with some trub anyway (albeit a smaller amount).
The trub settles with any break material overnight. The beer is clear by the next day (I use super Irish moss in the last 15 min.) If any trub gets into the fermenter bucket? It is a bonus not a problem. The trub is a nutrient source and is beneficial to the yeast.

I ferment in the no chill container frequently. I am fermenting on top of all the trub! The beer comes out clear. It will be perfect. I even won a first (my only gold) on a Black IPA that was fermented in the no-chill container. And, and, and! It was the second beer fermented in that no chill. I transferred from one no-chill (after it cooled) into a just emptied no-chill to reuse the yeast cake! I took a first!!!! Oh Boy!
Last edited by BobBrews on 08 May 2014, 20:21, edited 1 time in total.
tap 1 Raspberry wine
tap 2 Bourbon Barrel Porter
tap 3 Czech Pilsner
tap 4 Triple IPA 11% ABV
Pipeline: Mulled Cider 10% ABV

http://cheesestradamus.com/ Brewers challenge!
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Post #11 made 11 years ago
by mally
BobBrews wrote:I took a first!!!! Oh Boy!
Congratulations Bob, well done :champ:

What I am trying to discover is whether we can simplify the conditions for no-chillers, so that newcomers (to the technique) are not put off or overwhelmed by it.

As an example -
If you want to no chill & will pitch yeast into the wort within "X" months, there is no "good" reason to use a) Irish moss, b)whirlpool, c)worry about trub going into the cube, just dump the whole lot in. (Can this be said for all styles of beer though)?

I can understand why it is often desirable to transfer chilled wort (plate/immersion etc. employed) without trub, as your hot & cold break (and hops) have precipitated. Clear beer, looks nice (easy to wash yeast etc).
However, if you no-chill but don't transfer trub (which is just currently hot break & hop debris) why do you do that if you are going to get cold break in there anyway?
BTW, when I say "you" I mean the collective "you" not "you" personally!

I know Pat must have some knowledge on this as he has left wort in a cube for a year or so. :scratch:
Last edited by mally on 08 May 2014, 21:15, edited 1 time in total.
G B
I spent lots of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I squandered
I've stopped drinking, but only when I'm asleep
I ONCE gave up women and alcohol - it was the worst 20 minutes of my life
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From Great Britain

Post #12 made 11 years ago
by BobBrews
mally
However, if you no-chill but don't transfer trub (which is just currently hot break & hop debris) why do you do that if you are going to get cold break in there anyway?
I guess it's just that there is less of anything in the no-chill? If I were too totally eliminate all trub going from my pot to the N/C. I would only have cold break and some lingering suspended matter in the N/C container. For long term storage I don't know the effects so I figure less is better? But I don't know? I will find out in a few weeks!

Really, I probably will rarely use long term wort storage but it's fun to find out if I need too? I would be OK to do? For normal overnight use I see no point in anything but dumping all material into the cube and fermenting the next day.
Last edited by BobBrews on 08 May 2014, 21:37, edited 1 time in total.
tap 1 Raspberry wine
tap 2 Bourbon Barrel Porter
tap 3 Czech Pilsner
tap 4 Triple IPA 11% ABV
Pipeline: Mulled Cider 10% ABV

http://cheesestradamus.com/ Brewers challenge!
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From United States of America

Post #13 made 11 years ago
by mally
Thanks Bob, I agree completely.

I look forward to the results of your scientific study too.
G B
I spent lots of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I squandered
I've stopped drinking, but only when I'm asleep
I ONCE gave up women and alcohol - it was the worst 20 minutes of my life
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From Great Britain

Post #14 made 11 years ago
by HbgBill
Buckets came in today.. bought a couple of extra caps for them. Maybe brew this weekend.

I'm hoping to find a good recipe for a chocolate coffee stout or porter.

Going to visit Lagunitas Brewing today with my son. They make a very good Cappucchino Stout
Bill
Hop Song Brewing-Santa Rosa, California

Post #15 made 11 years ago
by BobBrews
HbgBill,

Rinse them first with hot water and "Whatever?" and sanitize the poop out of them afterwords! I really don't have a favorite coffee stout. You can try this??? :scratch:

http://www.northernbrewer.com/documenta ... dCrack.pdf

or look here? the recipes are there for each beer under the tab "Additional Information" Download any or all recipes! :whistle:

http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/brew ... _style=258
Last edited by BobBrews on 15 May 2014, 02:52, edited 1 time in total.
tap 1 Raspberry wine
tap 2 Bourbon Barrel Porter
tap 3 Czech Pilsner
tap 4 Triple IPA 11% ABV
Pipeline: Mulled Cider 10% ABV

http://cheesestradamus.com/ Brewers challenge!
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From United States of America

Post #16 made 11 years ago
by PistolPatch
Oh no! More Northern Brewer recipes we will have to try and make sense of mally :lol:. Bob, when the BIABacus is out, you and I better do some videos where I can show you how quickly a low integrity recipe format can turn virally bad and how a high integrity recipe format can maintain it's integrity. When we do those, wear something nice and don't fall asleep.

...

Trub into Cube

I think it is an error to drain all the contents of the kettle into a cube especially if it is to be stored for any length of time. One of the reasons I say this is that in the ridiculously small number of trials that have been done in no-chill versus chill (has anyone besides me done a simultaneous side by side?), one 'test' in Melbourne, Australia had the tasters describing the no-chilled version as more "vegetative" in taste. The actual experiment was pretty uncontrolled and not described well but...

It does make sense. Look at something like garlic and/or chilli infused oil. Leave the garlic and chilli in and the oil stagnates much faster than if the vegetables are removed. I'm sure there are other examples. Can anyone think of any?

...

When I used to work for Matilda Bay Brewing Company, the pioneers of craft brewing in Australia, we were talking about over-infusing coffee. In other words, running too much hot water through the grist. When you do this, the coffee becomes astringent. You must stop, on an espresso machine, running water through the grist as soon as you see the runnings turn from creamy white to black.

Imagine that the grist contains five ingredients:-

Ingredient A = 1 Unit
Ingredient B = 2 Units
and so on to...
Ingredient E = 5 Units.

The analogy given to us was that the best coffee comes from having one unit of each of ingredient A to E. Pump the right amount of water through and you will get the perfectly balanced coffee - one unit of each ingredient. Pump a heap of water through and you will get a coffee dominated by Ingredient E which, in the case of coffee from memory, happens to be astringency. Yuck!

This is why I really think it is safest practice to keep vegetative matter and/or trub out of the cube and fermentor.

:peace:
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 15 May 2014, 18:44, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #17 made 11 years ago
by dexter.rose
This is why I really think it is safest practice to keep vegetative matter and/or trub out of the cube and fermentor.
PP, I'll keep this in mind. I've always thought that the wort coming out of the cube tasted a little weird. I could describe it as vegetal. But I wasn't tasting it in my final beer. Maybe the flavor was getting scrubbed out by the fermentation?

Most of my no-chill beers are german beers hopped with hallertau at 60 minutes. I've given up on doing no chill beers that have any hop addidtions after 60 minutes due flavor/aroma hops turning into bittering hops.
Last edited by dexter.rose on 15 May 2014, 20:17, edited 1 time in total.
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