I NC'd my last batch and am a definite convert :D
This may be a dumb question but...
If I No-Chill, do I need to worry about excluding the kettle trub?
I figure that I should be able to just empty the whole kettle into the cube, and allow all the break material to settle out in its own time, then transfer clearer wort to the fermenter down the track. This would reduce a bit of wastage and also speed the brew day up a bit. +1 for laziness :D
Is there any good reason not to do this?
Ta
Post #2 made 15 years ago
Not sure if there are reasons for or against, but I try and leave the trub in the kettle, just because I do.
I know that's no help to you, sorry.
I know that's no help to you, sorry.
"It's beer Jim, but not as we know it."
Post #3 made 15 years ago
my problem is that my cube only holds 23 liters so i always have to leave something in the kettle.
Cube:
fermenter: Sourdough Spelt Ale, Classic Lambic, Oud Brune, Barrel Aged Belgian Dubbel
Kegs: Bob's Black IPA, Blanc Blond, Soda...
to be brewed:
fermenter: Sourdough Spelt Ale, Classic Lambic, Oud Brune, Barrel Aged Belgian Dubbel
Kegs: Bob's Black IPA, Blanc Blond, Soda...
to be brewed:
Post #4 made 15 years ago
Widdley, laziness can often be good but in brewing it is sometimes hard to know where 
.
Like hashie and shibolet, I would recommend not transferring 'everything' but have no ready links to back this up.
I do have two questions for you though...
1. If you do throw everything into the cube, how long are you going to leave it before racking and fermenting it? Long-term exposure to kettle trub is possibly not a great thing but I don't know for sure.
2. What method are you using to transfer? When you say, "empty the whole kettle into the cube," it sounds as though you are manually lifting the whole kettle up and pouring the last drop into the cube! This is very hard to do if you are using a tap or a syphon! What are you doing?
I reckon, play it safe and try and avoid trub going into your fermenter or cube but don't get overly worried about it. Kettle trub acts as food for yeast (in small quantities) but too much causes some other problem that I can't think of.
It's hard to brew crap all-grain beer if you keep your gear clean. Advice you get on effects of trub etc is questionable. I have seen gold medal lager winners who don't rack get consistent golds etc.
If your beer tastes bad, I'm pretty sure it is not going to be from it sitting on all the kettle trub for a day or two.
Cheers,
PP
.Like hashie and shibolet, I would recommend not transferring 'everything' but have no ready links to back this up.
I do have two questions for you though...
1. If you do throw everything into the cube, how long are you going to leave it before racking and fermenting it? Long-term exposure to kettle trub is possibly not a great thing but I don't know for sure.
2. What method are you using to transfer? When you say, "empty the whole kettle into the cube," it sounds as though you are manually lifting the whole kettle up and pouring the last drop into the cube! This is very hard to do if you are using a tap or a syphon! What are you doing?
I reckon, play it safe and try and avoid trub going into your fermenter or cube but don't get overly worried about it. Kettle trub acts as food for yeast (in small quantities) but too much causes some other problem that I can't think of.
It's hard to brew crap all-grain beer if you keep your gear clean. Advice you get on effects of trub etc is questionable. I have seen gold medal lager winners who don't rack get consistent golds etc.
If your beer tastes bad, I'm pretty sure it is not going to be from it sitting on all the kettle trub for a day or two.
Cheers,
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 30 Aug 2010, 22:26, edited 5 times in total.
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Post #5 made 15 years ago
Thanks guys
I guess I'm trying to trim the day back a bit i.e. if I don't have to wait for the break to settle to the bottom then I can drain and save around 15 mins...
I use an urn so its pretty easy to flick the tap to drain, but leaves about 3 litres behind unless I tilt at the end (in which case I start getting the trub). I then lose another litre or two in the NC cube - thats half a case of beer before it even hits the fermenter
Up to now the wort has only sat in the cube for a day or two but this will likely change in future once I start making yeast cultures etc and also if a backlog occurs going into the fridge
I think I may set up a little experiment next brew as I have a stack of erhlenmeyer flasks under the house. Will transfer a bit of clear wort and similarly trub to a few flasks, whack em in the autoclave to guarantee sterility, then put them in the cellar for a month or two then do some tests...
I guess I could also filter the last few litres from the kettle and use it for yeast starters
I guess I'm trying to trim the day back a bit i.e. if I don't have to wait for the break to settle to the bottom then I can drain and save around 15 mins...
I use an urn so its pretty easy to flick the tap to drain, but leaves about 3 litres behind unless I tilt at the end (in which case I start getting the trub). I then lose another litre or two in the NC cube - thats half a case of beer before it even hits the fermenter
Up to now the wort has only sat in the cube for a day or two but this will likely change in future once I start making yeast cultures etc and also if a backlog occurs going into the fridge
I think I may set up a little experiment next brew as I have a stack of erhlenmeyer flasks under the house. Will transfer a bit of clear wort and similarly trub to a few flasks, whack em in the autoclave to guarantee sterility, then put them in the cellar for a month or two then do some tests...
I guess I could also filter the last few litres from the kettle and use it for yeast starters
Post #6 made 15 years ago
Widdely,
I drain the whole works into my cube. I generally siphon the wort out the next day to ferment. I do save most of my late hop additions and put them in the cube before adding the boiling wort. I have found that the timing of late hope additions doesn't seem to matter (Because I usually screwed them up anyway) The hops settle with the trub and I still get all the hops essence. I am a hop head. Probably because I am over 61 and my taste buds are shot anyway?
I drain the whole works into my cube. I generally siphon the wort out the next day to ferment. I do save most of my late hop additions and put them in the cube before adding the boiling wort. I have found that the timing of late hope additions doesn't seem to matter (Because I usually screwed them up anyway) The hops settle with the trub and I still get all the hops essence. I am a hop head. Probably because I am over 61 and my taste buds are shot anyway?
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Post #7 made 15 years ago
When I was using a cooling method I ran my wort through a filter to remove the break material, but this Sunday (my first no-chill) I didn't worry about it. It just didn't seem worth it to muck around with 200F sticky liquid. I installed my spigot incredibly low as well, so I actually drained out all of the break 
. I also am fermenting in my no chill cubes, with that break in there. I've read a lot of conflicting opinions, but I'm thinking that kettle trub is completely harmless to the homebrewer.
I guess I have a tiny experiment going. I had to split my batch up into two cubes, I imagine the first cube has ALL of the break material and the second has absolutely none.
I also had a problem with my first cube being too full to get a vigorous shake on it, hopefully it's aerated enough...
. I also am fermenting in my no chill cubes, with that break in there. I've read a lot of conflicting opinions, but I'm thinking that kettle trub is completely harmless to the homebrewer.I guess I have a tiny experiment going. I had to split my batch up into two cubes, I imagine the first cube has ALL of the break material and the second has absolutely none.
I also had a problem with my first cube being too full to get a vigorous shake on it, hopefully it's aerated enough...
Post #8 made 15 years ago
Keep us up to date iijakii
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Post #9 made 15 years ago
I've tried putting a swiss voile sock over the bottom of my silicon tube(cube end) when transfering from kettle to cube. Doesn't eliminate it all but definately reduces the amount of trub. I use an electric urn and my greed for beer always leads me to extract as much liquid as I can by tilting tha dregs ( especially since I bought my first 21L cornelius keg). I always hit my fermenters with a double dose of finings over a two day period at the end of every fermentation as well. Never had a drama.
Post #10 made 15 years ago
Well,BobBrews wrote:Keep us up to date iijakii
I just had an extremely shitty morning. I woke up, giddy to go check on my beer before I head to work. I find the 4+gal batch had blown the stopper off and exploded krausen all over my chest freezer. I guess my blowoff tube didn't work at all. Then I tried to put the stopper back on but I PUSHED it down into the winpack. I quickly sanitized my hand and tried to reach for it, but it had already sunk. I had no empty carboys or another stopper, so I dumped her :(. I now regret dumping it, I should have just poured out a gallon or two (so it stopped foaming over) and covered with some foil. I was in a hurry and upset.
Lesson learned: Don't try to ferment in a container when you only have about 1.5 inches of headroom. I was told the blowoff tube would protect me, but... nope.
Last edited by iijakii on 08 Sep 2010, 21:32, edited 5 times in total.
Post #11 made 15 years ago
iijakii,
Been there done that! Sorry for your misfortune. It's sad to let them go weather they are infected or just bad. I know you will brew a great one next time. A little wiser and a lot thirstier?
Been there done that! Sorry for your misfortune. It's sad to let them go weather they are infected or just bad. I know you will brew a great one next time. A little wiser and a lot thirstier?
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Post #12 made 15 years ago
Oh no iijakii! It's a bastard when something like that happens and they always seem to happen when you have no time or frame of mind to deal with them . I had the same thing happen to me once when I used Nottingham yeast (never had any probs with other yeasts) and I too had a blow-off tube on that brew. Have never bothered with one since.
If something like this happens again (which it won't) don't be scared to muck around with the brew. At that stage of fermentation, it is unlikely you'll score an infection.
Will have a sympathy beer for you
,
PP
. I had the same thing happen to me once when I used Nottingham yeast (never had any probs with other yeasts) and I too had a blow-off tube on that brew. Have never bothered with one since.If something like this happens again (which it won't) don't be scared to muck around with the brew. At that stage of fermentation, it is unlikely you'll score an infection.
Will have a sympathy beer for you
,PP
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Post #13 made 15 years ago
Ever since I started biab'ing I have dumped the entire kettle as soon as I turn the flame out into a fermenter.
This is then placed on the work bench with something that is around 2.5 cm thick under the tap section of the fermenter (usually it's a garden glove or paint brush). I leave is over night then in the morning when it feels cool I open the tap into another fermenter whilst poring in the yeast starter. I leave e glugy stuff and 0 min hops in the 1st fermenter.
Never had a problem, never had an infection (i am in a wind free garage), and had a few award winning beers with the method.
I reckon do what works for you.
Cheers
DK
This is then placed on the work bench with something that is around 2.5 cm thick under the tap section of the fermenter (usually it's a garden glove or paint brush). I leave is over night then in the morning when it feels cool I open the tap into another fermenter whilst poring in the yeast starter. I leave e glugy stuff and 0 min hops in the 1st fermenter.
Never had a problem, never had an infection (i am in a wind free garage), and had a few award winning beers with the method.
I reckon do what works for you.
Cheers
DK
widdley wrote:I NC'd my last batch and am a definite convert :D
This may be a dumb question but...
If I No-Chill, do I need to worry about excluding the kettle trub?
Last edited by DK1 on 17 Oct 2010, 17:10, edited 5 times in total.
Post #14 made 15 years ago
I use a hop sack for my pellet hops. That is all I do to limit my trub. I do use Irish Moss or any other coagulant. At flame out I drain the boiling wort into my sanitized cube. I try to squeeze out as much air as I can from the cube. Its quite hot so be careful. Usually the next morning I siphon out the beer into my fermenter leaving all the trub behind. If I do slip up and get a little trub in the bucket I don't fret about it because it's actually good for the yeast. Personally if I were to leave the wort in the cube for an extended amount of time (two weeks or more) I would transfer the wort into another (well sanitized) cube. I do know that the wort will store for a very long time but I never have tried it.If I No-Chill, do I need to worry about excluding the kettle trub?
Last edited by BobBrews on 17 Oct 2010, 20:17, edited 5 times in total.
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Post #15 made 15 years ago
BobBrews,
Do you hae any problems getting the wort out of your hop sock. My hop sock is a plasticy type of thing and it takes ages to drain the wort out of it. I'm a year older than you and sometimes I doubt if I am going to get any older before the damn thing empties. In my K&K days, about a month or so ago, I used pantyhose as a hopsock, one for each addition. I'm thinking about doing it again,
Bob
Do you hae any problems getting the wort out of your hop sock. My hop sock is a plasticy type of thing and it takes ages to drain the wort out of it. I'm a year older than you and sometimes I doubt if I am going to get any older before the damn thing empties. In my K&K days, about a month or so ago, I used pantyhose as a hopsock, one for each addition. I'm thinking about doing it again,
Bob
Post #16 made 15 years ago
Bobthebrewer,
The hopsock is just squeezed against the side of the kettle with a spoon. The amount of wort is negligible. I don't fret over it. Now, if I am making a beer with only 1 ounce of hops I just throw it in the wort without a hopsack. I brew a lot of hoppie beers during the summer and with 8 ounces or more of hops then I use the muslin hopsock. Pantyhose? never tried that. Maybe the next time I get a run?
The hopsock is just squeezed against the side of the kettle with a spoon. The amount of wort is negligible. I don't fret over it. Now, if I am making a beer with only 1 ounce of hops I just throw it in the wort without a hopsack. I brew a lot of hoppie beers during the summer and with 8 ounces or more of hops then I use the muslin hopsock. Pantyhose? never tried that. Maybe the next time I get a run?
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Post #17 made 14 years ago
My apologies if this has been mentioned elsewhere, but what about using your BIAB grain bag - or a second BIAB grain bag - as a kettle-lining filter at the end of the boil?
My bag is made out of super-fine food grade nylon mesh, so I've been wondering if I couldn't just empty and wash out the grains from it while the wort is boiling, dunk it in a bucket of water and StarSan solution and then put it (carefully) back into the kettle at the end of the boil. I siphon using a stainless steel racking cane and a length of silicon tubing, and my thinking is that the bag will act as a kind of filter letting only liquid wort through and preventing trub from getting to the siphon.
If someone has tried this and knows it is a huge waste of time and/or pain in the patookis, please let me know. Otherwise, I'll try it during my brewing session this Saturday.
My bag is made out of super-fine food grade nylon mesh, so I've been wondering if I couldn't just empty and wash out the grains from it while the wort is boiling, dunk it in a bucket of water and StarSan solution and then put it (carefully) back into the kettle at the end of the boil. I siphon using a stainless steel racking cane and a length of silicon tubing, and my thinking is that the bag will act as a kind of filter letting only liquid wort through and preventing trub from getting to the siphon.
If someone has tried this and knows it is a huge waste of time and/or pain in the patookis, please let me know. Otherwise, I'll try it during my brewing session this Saturday.
Post #18 made 14 years ago
GrainWaterYeast,
The subject is somewhere on the forum, just where I don't know? You idea seems to be workable. If your putting your grain bag back in boiling wort I don't know if you need to sanitize unless it's at flame-out? Normally for me I just drain everything (hops,trube and whatever fell in) into my cube. The next day in most cases I siphon off (from the top down)into my fermenter.
Trube is good in small amounts. It is nutrient rich and helps fermentation. Many people obsess about clear beers so that the idea of trube or hops residue in the bucket seems adverse to what they are trying to accomplish (clear beer). If you only have a bittering hop just throw it in the wort! If you are building a hop bomb then use a cheap hop sack!
I hope that I didn't get to far off track?
The subject is somewhere on the forum, just where I don't know? You idea seems to be workable. If your putting your grain bag back in boiling wort I don't know if you need to sanitize unless it's at flame-out? Normally for me I just drain everything (hops,trube and whatever fell in) into my cube. The next day in most cases I siphon off (from the top down)into my fermenter.
Trube is good in small amounts. It is nutrient rich and helps fermentation. Many people obsess about clear beers so that the idea of trube or hops residue in the bucket seems adverse to what they are trying to accomplish (clear beer). If you only have a bittering hop just throw it in the wort! If you are building a hop bomb then use a cheap hop sack!
I hope that I didn't get to far off track?
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Post #19 made 14 years ago
Hi BobBrews,
Good points. I admit it's mainly an aesthetic thing for me, i.e., I can't stand seeing all that gunk getting sucked up into the end of my siphon! But I'll probably give this idea a try anyhow, just out of sheer morbid curiosity.
Good points. I admit it's mainly an aesthetic thing for me, i.e., I can't stand seeing all that gunk getting sucked up into the end of my siphon! But I'll probably give this idea a try anyhow, just out of sheer morbid curiosity.
Post #20 made 14 years ago
Hi joshua (I feel rude for not capitalizing that), that's certainly the easiest way to go about it! I know this has been discussed in other threads, but is there concern about infection by leaving the wort in the kettle for so long? Other than leaving the lid on, do you take any sorts of precautions?
Post #21 made 14 years ago
I found this re:campden
http://www.byo.com/stories/article/indi ... chloramine
http://www.byo.com/stories/article/indi ... chloramine
Last edited by Lylo on 09 Jun 2011, 00:47, edited 5 times in total.
AWOL
Post #22 made 14 years ago
That is why I posted it.You mentioned that you used 2 tab into the wort.The article I think recommended 1/2 or 1 tablet before heating.Probably not a lot of difference.
AWOL
Post #23 made 14 years ago
Just thought I'd chime in and say that my experiment with using my BIAB bag as a filter against sucking up trub during siphoning had to be abandoned today after a near disaster brewing a 100% rye beer. The near disaster had to do with a collapsing burner stand rather than the fact that the rye formed a gelatinous layer on the inside of my brew bag which meant that my bag essentially turned into a nylon balloon full of crazy-hot grain, water and air.
At any rate, I have a "four grain beer" (barley, wheat, oat and rye) scheduled for next weekend, and I'll perform my trub filtering experiment then.
Joshua and Lylo, thanks for the info on Campden tablets. Because my brew pot is pretty standard, without any modifications to ensure airtight seals or to allow for airlocks, I think I'll stick with siphoning into jerry cans for the time being. But the Campden tablets would definitely add some peace of mind that my wort isn't going funky while it sits.
At any rate, I have a "four grain beer" (barley, wheat, oat and rye) scheduled for next weekend, and I'll perform my trub filtering experiment then.
Joshua and Lylo, thanks for the info on Campden tablets. Because my brew pot is pretty standard, without any modifications to ensure airtight seals or to allow for airlocks, I think I'll stick with siphoning into jerry cans for the time being. But the Campden tablets would definitely add some peace of mind that my wort isn't going funky while it sits.
Post #24 made 14 years ago
In case anyone is interested, I pulled off my experiment of using the grain bag as a filter for the trub and, yeah, well, yeah, it sorta works. It definitely kept out the granular hop material and reduced the amount of break(?) material, but it doesn't seem to be any better than giving your wort a good whirlpooling.
Post #25 made 14 years ago
Cheese cloth is a great idea! Thanks for bringing it to my attention. I knew before I even tried my 'experiment' that I was reinventing the wheel, but it's always fun to hope against hope that you can stumble upon something that no one - in the thousands of years that humans have been brewing suds - has ever thought of.
Speaking of cheese cloth, I've been itching to wrangle me up some wild yeast to use in a home brew, and I've read on other forums that cheese cloth across the mouth of a small mason jar with a simple wort starter in it is a great way to go about catching wild yeast without catching bird and bug poo as well. But this is way off topic and likely deserves its own thread (wild yeast, not bird and bug poo)...
Speaking of cheese cloth, I've been itching to wrangle me up some wild yeast to use in a home brew, and I've read on other forums that cheese cloth across the mouth of a small mason jar with a simple wort starter in it is a great way to go about catching wild yeast without catching bird and bug poo as well. But this is way off topic and likely deserves its own thread (wild yeast, not bird and bug poo)...
