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Bottles & kegs alternatives?

Post #1 made 14 years ago
by Binoclard
Hi, here I am again, with another naive beginner question :lol:

I read about the concept of "real ale" (basically beers kept in casks/barrels and dispensed via a manual beer engine, without CO2 adjunction? Please correct me if I am wrong)

From my point of view, kegs are a big no (too pricy, too much stuff, too much tanks, tubes, etc.), but storing and filling a gazillion of bottles (did somebody say cleaning…?) doesn't fill me with pure joy either :headhit:

So… I am sure you see where I am going: how is it possible/practical for the apprentice homebrewer to condition and dispense the fruit of his labour in mini barrels with a tap?

I assume that a 20L cask would turn flat soon, but what about 5L containers?

And especially, what about the "bag-in-box" type of containers used for the wine? The inner bag would collapse as the beer is drawn, so no oxygen contact. A 10L cardboard box with a plastic bag and a tap is certainly not the same as an oak cask with a beer engine, but could it work?

Sorry if it is silly questions, and thank you for your time and your advices.

Cheers :drink:

Post #2 made 14 years ago
by wizard78
Real ale (cask ale) as you mentioned is ale aged and conditioned in a barrel and served via pump.
I think serving beer in this manner, you would have to have the required taste for it as it is generally flat ( in terms of bottle conditioned or legged beer) and served at room or cellar temps. I've just been reading a book on pale ale and it delves into the history of ale and in particular ipa which was real ale in it's beginnings.
I think the volumes of co2 (carbonation) in the ale are a little over 1 whereas I'd think most modern beer is up between 2 and 3, the higher volumes mostly for lagers however American ales are around 2.4 -2.7 I think.

So i guess if you want beer at the higher carbonation then those wine box bladder setups probably wouldn't stand up to the pressures of carbonation.

It would be interesting to hear if anyone has used the small port barrels to do real ale. :think:

One thing I think I read on aussiehomebrewer is that some of the guys are using new modified weed spraying bottles (around 3 - 5 Litres) as a party keg setup. I may have just dreamt it though, I'll see if I can find a link.

I like it when people think outside the box, looking for new ideas. It keeps things interesting.

Hope you get some relevant information out of this post and good luck with your endeavors, don't forget to keep us posted on your progress.

Cheers wiz
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Post #3 made 14 years ago
by Binoclard
wizard78 wrote: I like it when people think outside the box
It's not outside the box, it's inside a bag inside a box… :whistle:

I already have the taste for lightly carbonated beers, and the lazyness to try it ^__^

Quick update on my research: it's definitely not new, many UK craft brewers sell their beers in "bag-in-box", and I read that in the 70s it was all the rage.

A search for "cubitainers" or "polypins" in the context of homebrewing give lots of interesting results.

It seems doable, but I don't know the pros & cons yet; I'll read more and keep you posted.
Last edited by Binoclard on 30 Apr 2011, 18:55, edited 5 times in total.

Post #4 made 14 years ago
by orolain
Because in Australia we can't buy any authentic casks (as far as I know - please tell me otherwise!) as they have in the UK for real ale I substitute it with something called the Tap-A-Draft mini-kegging system which is an american invention. The only issue is they hold 6 litres, but it beats washing bottles.

Some more info: http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/i ... wtopic=812

Like the UK casks you naturally carbonate the ale in the mini-keg, and use CO2 bulbs to simply add pressure to pour the beer rather than carbonate it. The UK casks usually also have the ability to use CO2 bulbs, but also have a screw top if you wish to use gravity instead although with this method you have to drink it in a day or two before it oxidizes and goes stale.

Cellar temperature ale is the best, you can taste all the flavours!
Last edited by orolain on 30 Apr 2011, 19:17, edited 5 times in total.

Post #5 made 14 years ago
by PistolPatch
Binoclard wrote:Hi, here I am again, with another naive beginner question :lol:

I read about the concept of "real ale" (basically beers kept in casks/barrels and dispensed via a manual beer engine, without CO2 adjunction? Please correct me if I am wrong)
Certainly not a naive question Bino.

There is another way of traditionally dispensing real ale without CO2. This is done by hand-tapping the keg. It can get messy :). Basically the keg (wooden or aluminium or SS) has two wooden bungs. If my memory serves me correctly (haven't hand-tapped a keg in over 25 years) each wooden bung is two circles of wood.

The beer is naturally carbonated in the barrell. At tapping time, a wooden, porous, breathing plug is hammered into the top bung and the dispensing tap is hammered into the side bung - that's the messy bit.

Here is a very dodgy diagram of what I am trying to say :P
Hand Tap Diagram.jpg
In writing all this I am not too sure what my point is :scratch: because the above system is only really good for dispensing beer for up to 48 hours in good conditions so not much good for your needs.

Maybe a useful point though is to realise that we don't necessarily need CO2 to dispense beer over a short period of time. It takes a while for beer to become oxidised and/or flat so we could say take a 6 L or 10 L container to a party and dispense it with gravity alone with no major problems. Mightn't be perfect but it will do the job.

Think I'll go now :whistle:
PP
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Last edited by PistolPatch on 01 May 2011, 18:43, edited 5 times in total.
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Post #6 made 14 years ago
by hashie
I'd like to do real ales, I'd also like to serve them with a beer engine. Trouble has always been storage.

I think these collapsible water containers would work. They don't breath, they just collapse down as the beer is served. So no oxidised beer and you don't have to drink it all in 48 hours.
Last edited by hashie on 02 May 2011, 05:41, edited 5 times in total.
"It's beer Jim, but not as we know it."

Post #7 made 14 years ago
by Binoclard
So…

I didn't find that much serious info about the practical side of using a plastic collapsible container/polypin/cubitainer, but it is indeed done.

The consensus about the amount of carbonation seems to be around 1.5, more you'll have to be very careful, check very often and eventually release CO2.

You have to be careful to not let air in as you get liquid out, and the beer would be good for weeks…

Post #8 made 14 years ago
by Binoclard
from http://www.jimsbeerkit.co.uk/forum/view" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... 45#p249927
I now use polypins extensively - I don't know of any alternative that lets you enjoy (CAMRA regulation) real ale for longer if drinking between just 1 - 2 people. Its perfect because the bag collapses as the drink goes down.

I spent a long time researching how long the beer is supposed to stay fresh for and the answers were anything between a week and 2 months. I can tell you that if the air is actively pushed out of the polypin and not reintroduuced while serving, my beer tastes as good as day one up to a year later.

I now have 21 x 20L polypins on the go and can choose between a dozen drinks, beer / wine all through the year. I use the polypin as a secondary and let off any Co2 with the tap if necessary. The polypin is thicker than a sealed plastic bottle that will keep coke in date for over a year.
Another thing that seems to be important in the success/failure is the temperature, as a colder temp is supposed to allow the CO2 to be assimilated by the beer instead of inflating the bag and causing it to burst…
Last edited by Binoclard on 03 May 2011, 03:13, edited 5 times in total.

Post #11 made 14 years ago
by shibolet
is the bag a box used once and then disposed of?

this thread reminded me of an experiment a brewing buddy of mine did a while back. he tried to ferment in a BIAB (Brew in a bag).
not very successful.
here's his blog post. translated via google translate:
http://translate.google.com/translate?j ... -post.html
Cube:
fermenter: Sourdough Spelt Ale, Classic Lambic, Oud Brune, Barrel Aged Belgian Dubbel
Kegs: Bob's Black IPA, Blanc Blond, Soda...
to be brewed:

Post #13 made 14 years ago
by bucknut
I use party pigs http://www.partypig.com/, they are 2.25 us gallons and they don't use Co2. Priming sugars can be added to the beer in the Pig and final conditioning will occur in the Pig. They use a pressure pouch, which inflates to a constant 15-20 pounds per square inch of pressure and keeps the beer fresh and carbonated for several months. The pressure pouch is not attached to anything and floats freely inside the bottle. As beer is dispensed the pressure pouch expands and completely fills the bottle.
Last edited by bucknut on 17 Sep 2011, 09:21, edited 5 times in total.

Post #15 made 14 years ago
by pimpsqueak
I've refitted a couple of 5L Bitburger mini-kegs and they work pretty well.
When it comes time to dispense, you can attach a keg charger to the top and add CO2 when the beer stops pouring (if you are only drinking part of the keg) or you can just open the top valve and allow air in and pour via gravity (if you plan to drink the whole thing)
They seem to be holding up ok.
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