I have a 14 litre stock pot and want to try some BIAB/All Grain brews that I can then use a Demijohn as a FV - aiming to get around 4 litres/8 bottles. I just like brewing and experimenting and if 4 litres goes down the drain it aint so bad!
Never (obviously) done this before so is it doable? and any recipe suggestions?
Post #2 made 10 years ago
Blinky, You can Download BIABACUS at http://www.biabrewer.info/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1869, and check the Amarillo APA Recipe and change the Grain Bill and Hop Bill to suite you Taste, or fit your Grain/Hop Availability.
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Post #3 made 10 years ago
Hi Blinky,
Should be able to get 7L out into bottles easy enough.
Ive done small batches previously. Good for experimenting but obvious downfall is when you make a good beer you don't have much of it.
Should be able to get 7L out into bottles easy enough.
Ive done small batches previously. Good for experimenting but obvious downfall is when you make a good beer you don't have much of it.
Post #4 made 10 years ago
That's about my setup. I think my pot might be a touch smaller but I can still safely boil up to about 10-11 litres of wort, expecting to end up with about 7.5l into a plastic jerry can to cool overnight and back into the pot the next day to ferment. By the time it has fermented and been siphoned into bottles, I get a batch of about 12 bottles.
I've been using recipes from Graham Wheeler's Brew Your Own British Real Ale and scaling them down either to fit 1kg of crushed malt (bought crushed and sealed in a bag) or, when I decided I wanted to get a little more beer at the end, to a volume of liquid. I put all the figures in a spreadsheet, in grams, enter a multiplication factor and let the spreadsheet do the sums while I try different numbers (eg. 26.2l for a 23l recipe is entered as 26200. Multiplied by 0.382 gets 10008.4, which is near enough to 10l... multiply everything else by the same number to complete the scaling).
Wulf
I've been using recipes from Graham Wheeler's Brew Your Own British Real Ale and scaling them down either to fit 1kg of crushed malt (bought crushed and sealed in a bag) or, when I decided I wanted to get a little more beer at the end, to a volume of liquid. I put all the figures in a spreadsheet, in grams, enter a multiplication factor and let the spreadsheet do the sums while I try different numbers (eg. 26.2l for a 23l recipe is entered as 26200. Multiplied by 0.382 gets 10008.4, which is near enough to 10l... multiply everything else by the same number to complete the scaling).
Wulf
Last edited by basswulf on 15 Apr 2015, 18:39, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #5 made 10 years ago
I've never done really small batches but would love to do so in many situations 
.
Scaling recipes well is not quite as easy as fractions although sometimes they will be close enough. The BIABacus will scale any existing recipes really well and iron out the scaling problems correctly so that is no problem but...
What I can't work out is how you brewers handle/manage dealing such small hop additions and, way more importantly, the even smaller, but way more expensive, yeast additions.
Any tips?
PP
.Scaling recipes well is not quite as easy as fractions although sometimes they will be close enough. The BIABacus will scale any existing recipes really well and iron out the scaling problems correctly so that is no problem but...
What I can't work out is how you brewers handle/manage dealing such small hop additions and, way more importantly, the even smaller, but way more expensive, yeast additions.
Any tips?
PP
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Post #6 made 10 years ago
Pat, Not wishing to promote any specific product, I use one Like This
http://www.amazon.com/Digital-Pocket-Sc ... B000IV32JW
I still use a full 7g to 11g sachet of Cheap dry yeast(rehydrated in Water).
I consider it, a "BIG" Starter, and have never had a stuck or slow Fermentation.
http://www.amazon.com/Digital-Pocket-Sc ... B000IV32JW
I still use a full 7g to 11g sachet of Cheap dry yeast(rehydrated in Water).
I consider it, a "BIG" Starter, and have never had a stuck or slow Fermentation.
Honest Officer, I swear to Drunk, I am Not God.
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Post #7 made 10 years ago
Yeah... I reckon just pitching a whole pack of yeast dry or liquid would work great in that 8 to 12 L VIF range. Just an entire packet. It's pretty hard to "overpitch," whatever that is supposed to mean. I mean... pitch rate is just another tool in our tool box, right? If that whole pack is too expensive or if you don't like the results, dry yeast is much easier to measure. Put a sanitary vessel or rehydration container on your scale, zero the scale and measure out. Not perfect, but certainly repeatable.
Post #8 made 10 years ago
Hi All,
I hope you don't mind me hanging on the coat tails of this thread, but I was wondering if any of you smaller brewers could answer some questions, please?
I have a 14 litre stock pot. As it is, my cooker is not powerful enough to boil anything larger than this, so I'm stuck with this size pot for now.
I've noticed that a couple of you have said that it's possible to get 7 litre batches from a 14 litre pot. However, after mashing, would a batch / dunk sparge be worth it to bring the wort volume up to, say, 13 litres? I know that my pot loses about 2 litres an hour during boiling, so I would be left with about 11 litres, rather than the 7.
Now, being a total newbie here, but common sense tells me that I would / could be sacrificing ABV here, but would it be feasible to calculate the right volume of sparge water to use to extract enough sugars and still maintain the ABV but increase the overall batch volume? Would it just be the case of just experimenting with sparge volumes until I manage to hit the OG of the recipe I'm copying?
I've downloaded the trial of Beersmith but to be honest with you, it's like reading Arabic to me at the moment!
Cheers for any support and help on this!
I hope you don't mind me hanging on the coat tails of this thread, but I was wondering if any of you smaller brewers could answer some questions, please?
I have a 14 litre stock pot. As it is, my cooker is not powerful enough to boil anything larger than this, so I'm stuck with this size pot for now.
I've noticed that a couple of you have said that it's possible to get 7 litre batches from a 14 litre pot. However, after mashing, would a batch / dunk sparge be worth it to bring the wort volume up to, say, 13 litres? I know that my pot loses about 2 litres an hour during boiling, so I would be left with about 11 litres, rather than the 7.
Now, being a total newbie here, but common sense tells me that I would / could be sacrificing ABV here, but would it be feasible to calculate the right volume of sparge water to use to extract enough sugars and still maintain the ABV but increase the overall batch volume? Would it just be the case of just experimenting with sparge volumes until I manage to hit the OG of the recipe I'm copying?
I've downloaded the trial of Beersmith but to be honest with you, it's like reading Arabic to me at the moment!
Cheers for any support and help on this!
Post #9 made 10 years ago
Diond,
I think you should forget Beersmith, you should Download "BIABACUS" at http://www.biabrewer.info/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1869
and get "The BIABacus - Help" at http://biabrewer.info/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=1863
and read the "Clear Brewing Terminology (CBT)" http://www.biabrewer.info/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2685
You can check out the NRB's All Amarillo APA file, and enter your Kettle Size, and the Specific Gravity for the Batch.
You will see how the Spreadsheet changes the Grains and Hops to make the batch.
In my Humble opinion, making 13L of Beer with only 1-14L kettle, will make some very poor beer.
If you go with a 2 vessel system, your mashtun could Hold the "Total Water needed" PLUS the Grainbill,(about 28-30L) then drain the Tun,and squeeze the "&^*)^&" out of the grains, and Boil off in your kettle.
You can make 10-11L of preety great Beer, and have 2 large vessels to clean.
I think you should forget Beersmith, you should Download "BIABACUS" at http://www.biabrewer.info/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1869
and get "The BIABacus - Help" at http://biabrewer.info/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=1863
and read the "Clear Brewing Terminology (CBT)" http://www.biabrewer.info/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2685
You can check out the NRB's All Amarillo APA file, and enter your Kettle Size, and the Specific Gravity for the Batch.
You will see how the Spreadsheet changes the Grains and Hops to make the batch.
In my Humble opinion, making 13L of Beer with only 1-14L kettle, will make some very poor beer.
If you go with a 2 vessel system, your mashtun could Hold the "Total Water needed" PLUS the Grainbill,(about 28-30L) then drain the Tun,and squeeze the "&^*)^&" out of the grains, and Boil off in your kettle.
You can make 10-11L of preety great Beer, and have 2 large vessels to clean.
Honest Officer, I swear to Drunk, I am Not God.
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- SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From United States of America
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Post #10 made 10 years ago
Cheers Joshua, thanks for the speedy reply. I would dearly love to brew larger, but I'm a little confuddled with your advice. Are you saying that I would be better to buy a larger vessel to use as a mashtun because my cooker should be powerful enough to reach the lower than boiling temperatures needed for mashing still. Then after mashing, transfer the wort to a smaller vessel, say my existing 14 litre stockpot, and boil with that?
I really am sorry for sounding thick, but, well, er, I am!
Cheers again.
I really am sorry for sounding thick, but, well, er, I am!
Cheers again.
Post #11 made 10 years ago
If you have a "Cooler/Esky" that would be your 2nd Vessel.
Example: If you want 13L of 1.050 wort into the fermenter, You will need a Total amount of strike water of 17.5L at 69C, that will give you a total Mash Volume of 19.59L which would be the "Mash Tun"
You can heat 13L of water to 69C and Mash-In, and as the Mash Tun Cools, heat another 4.5L in your Kettle to 68C(mash temperature).
Stir occasionally for 90minutes, then Drain the Mash-tun like 3V, with NO Sparge step.
If You can get a large Voile Curtain, and Line the Mash tun/Cooler, it will help you Pull the grains out of the Mashtun, to squeeze those last few drops of Wort, and make clean-up easier.
You should be able to recover about 16L of wort, so drain the Mash tun in 2 steps, and use the total wort during the Boil.
Or if you can find a "cheap" 20L pot, and have a heat source to boil 16L down to 13L, you would be doing a full Volume BIAB, with 1 Vessel.
See an attched BIABACUS file with the Numbers that show what is above.
Example: If you want 13L of 1.050 wort into the fermenter, You will need a Total amount of strike water of 17.5L at 69C, that will give you a total Mash Volume of 19.59L which would be the "Mash Tun"
You can heat 13L of water to 69C and Mash-In, and as the Mash Tun Cools, heat another 4.5L in your Kettle to 68C(mash temperature).
Stir occasionally for 90minutes, then Drain the Mash-tun like 3V, with NO Sparge step.
If You can get a large Voile Curtain, and Line the Mash tun/Cooler, it will help you Pull the grains out of the Mashtun, to squeeze those last few drops of Wort, and make clean-up easier.
You should be able to recover about 16L of wort, so drain the Mash tun in 2 steps, and use the total wort during the Boil.
Or if you can find a "cheap" 20L pot, and have a heat source to boil 16L down to 13L, you would be doing a full Volume BIAB, with 1 Vessel.
See an attched BIABACUS file with the Numbers that show what is above.
Honest Officer, I swear to Drunk, I am Not God.
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- SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From United States of America
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Post #12 made 10 years ago
Hehe, you're going to wish you hadn't replied to me now!
So once the 4.5L of water is heated, I would add this to the already 13L that is mashing in the tun? Could there be any problems arising from how long it may take between heating the extra 4.5L and adding this to the 13L mash?
Cheers
So once the 4.5L of water is heated, I would add this to the already 13L that is mashing in the tun? Could there be any problems arising from how long it may take between heating the extra 4.5L and adding this to the 13L mash?
Cheers
Post #13 made 10 years ago
The thermal mass of the 2+ kg grain Bill, and 13L of water, in an Insulated Esky/Cooler may drop 2c-3C over the 90 minute mash.
So, if you add the 4.5L during that Mash temperature, it would not do much at all.
If you keep a temperature reading(Thermometer) in the mash tun, you can adjust the mash temperature, OR Heat the 4.5L to near boiling, near the end of the mash, and slowly add the HOT water to the Tun for a Mash-Out step.(172F)
There are Many ways to brew BIAB or Mash In A Bag-MIAB.
BTDT
So, if you add the 4.5L during that Mash temperature, it would not do much at all.
If you keep a temperature reading(Thermometer) in the mash tun, you can adjust the mash temperature, OR Heat the 4.5L to near boiling, near the end of the mash, and slowly add the HOT water to the Tun for a Mash-Out step.(172F)
There are Many ways to brew BIAB or Mash In A Bag-MIAB.
BTDT
Honest Officer, I swear to Drunk, I am Not God.
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Post #14 made 10 years ago
I like the cut of your jib, fella. Thank you very much for the advice, it's greatly appreciated. 
Post #15 made 10 years ago
Pretty good advice again Joshua, second time you've said it'll make very poor beer. Could you explain a little bit for me? I've seen people make pretty great beer, and on the same quality level as their normal brews, by topping off during the boil and topping off at flameout (use treated water if you have to worry about chlorine)
Post #16 made 10 years ago
I haven't read all this thread, but here are some guidelines as far as I understand it.
30% is the maximum you should go for on an into fermentor dilution (15% is better). Pre-boil dilutions are not a quality penalty at all. During the boil additions vary between these two, as you want as much of the wort to receive at least a 60 minute boil of a 90 minute boil.
MS
30% is the maximum you should go for on an into fermentor dilution (15% is better). Pre-boil dilutions are not a quality penalty at all. During the boil additions vary between these two, as you want as much of the wort to receive at least a 60 minute boil of a 90 minute boil.
MS
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Post #17 made 10 years ago
I can totally understand the into fermenter dilution, but I don't really get why the boil dilutions would affect anything as long as your water treatment is still in line. Hop utilization will be pretty much the same as a full volume, and there's little to no caramelization/malliard reactions going on, water has no dms or anything to worry about, and I'm unaware of any off flavors besides chlorine that could occur from adding water during the boil. Obviously you don't want to STOP the boil, so I would take some boiling water and pour it into the brew kettle. Especially if they're doing a 90 minute boil, rather than the standard 60 minute boil on everywhere else besides this forum, the wort produced will have no DMS at all regardless of being diluted.
Post #18 made 10 years ago
PricelessBrew, Biab makes great beer due the 5L+ per Kg 'Liquor to grain Ratio'.
if you try to Duplicate 3V Brewing with Full Volume BIAB and Want to use 1.07L per Kg, and Dilute this, Even the best water will change the "near syrup" to something, That if you Taste it, you may want to Toss it.
I have been Working on a way to make 24L VIF from a 23L kettle...It does work, but the Wort tasted like someone's "Pee"
everytime.
Yep, I do Have grains to waste.
if you try to Duplicate 3V Brewing with Full Volume BIAB and Want to use 1.07L per Kg, and Dilute this, Even the best water will change the "near syrup" to something, That if you Taste it, you may want to Toss it.
I have been Working on a way to make 24L VIF from a 23L kettle...It does work, but the Wort tasted like someone's "Pee"
Yep, I do Have grains to waste.
Last edited by joshua on 19 May 2015, 09:31, edited 1 time in total.
Honest Officer, I swear to Drunk, I am Not God.
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Post #19 made 10 years ago
While I agree biab typically involves full volume mashes with a relatively thin mash thickness, I don't understand how a thicker mash would produce worse tasting beer as long as you stay within ph and temp and don't extract any tannins. Many thousand, myself included, have mashed thick then sparged with good results. Is there any specific reason you feel this produces pee like wort?
Post #20 made 10 years ago
My problem has always been getting the required amount of grain to fit in the kettle to begin with regardless of mash thickness. I like the idea of a separate mash tun then as Joshua said you can have the full mash volume. I've been looking at things like this http://www.leyland-home-brew.co.uk/lhb- ... 1040-p.asp
(Sorry if link not clickable). So that would be 2V brewing I guess. I agree that there is a limit to dilution. It may be 15% or 30% but I think you are limited by your gravity as well.
(Sorry if link not clickable). So that would be 2V brewing I guess. I agree that there is a limit to dilution. It may be 15% or 30% but I think you are limited by your gravity as well.
Post #21 made 10 years ago
Yes, I would definitely agree that the best course of action first would be a larger pot, then personally I see no problem with dilutions pre and during the boil, so I would recommend that route before purchasing another piece of equipment, especially considering you could most likely get a larger pot for the same price as a cooler mashtun. I've seen 5gal (18.9L) pots around here go for $20. You should be able to get about 2.5gal (9.45L) out of that easily.
Sorry to clutter the thread, I agree with the suggested solutions for the most part, just don't understand how a boil dilution could cause lower quality beer as no off flavors are produced.
Sorry to clutter the thread, I agree with the suggested solutions for the most part, just don't understand how a boil dilution could cause lower quality beer as no off flavors are produced.
Post #22 made 10 years ago
Priceless, I think the Hardness(Calcium,and other Elements) of the water, when Mashed, is taken in the "Sweet Liquor".
When the Watered is added after the mash/before the Boil, May also taken up.
There is also, data that shows Boiling the Hard water, causes the Hardness to Collect and fall out of the water.
That may be why late dilution in the boil, and added to the Fermenter cause the Wort to be Different, that Full Volume Brewing.
JMHO....
When the Watered is added after the mash/before the Boil, May also taken up.
There is also, data that shows Boiling the Hard water, causes the Hardness to Collect and fall out of the water.
That may be why late dilution in the boil, and added to the Fermenter cause the Wort to be Different, that Full Volume Brewing.
JMHO....
Last edited by joshua on 20 May 2015, 00:36, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #23 made 10 years ago
Okay that makes some sense, malts are high in magnesium and potassium generally and some of which would remain in the Sweet liqour. In general the hardness and calcium will decrease during a boil, which will change the beer slightly under most circumstances and will definitely not cause a beer to taste like cat piss...
The issue of hardness and calcium can be easily adjusted as well using simple mineral additions and boiling the water, in a tea kettle or smaller pot, before adding during the boil, then there's no difference in chemical composition as far as I'm aware.
The issue of hardness and calcium can be easily adjusted as well using simple mineral additions and boiling the water, in a tea kettle or smaller pot, before adding during the boil, then there's no difference in chemical composition as far as I'm aware.
