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New Problem?

Post #1 made 11 years ago
by HbgBill
I've come across a new problem. I haven't used BIABacus for some time.. and I thought I had it pretty well down. I'm using PR1.3K downloaded into Open Office.. which I've somewhat successfully used in the past. I say "somewhat" because of my mash temps.

The problem is in Section E.. Mashing Instructions

I'm doing a FVM for 90 minutes.. in this case at 158*F or 70*C based on the suggestion of the brewer at the commercial brewery.

If grain is at 20*C (68*F) BIABacus is telling me to Strike at 71.9*C (161.5*F)

I KNOW I lose a fair amount of temperature at that strike temp and it drops Wayyyyy down. to somewhere near 148*F

Because I'm still new at this.. and IIRC, I shouldn't be filling in any blanks other than sections A-J (I may be mistaken on this) I only know I boil off 1 G per hour.

I haven't filled in any of the volumes for the grains yet.. but I'll get that worked out soon.

Finally.. I do remember someone telling me about protecting the cells with a password. I really don't know how to do that.. so.. if someone is using Open Office.. maybe they can offer some advice.

Thanks, Bill with the LOOOOOONG learning curve.

***** I deleted the file as I had the FV incorrect *****
Last edited by HbgBill on 30 Aug 2014, 06:51, edited 3 times in total.
Bill
Hop Song Brewing-Santa Rosa, California

Post #2 made 11 years ago
by Mad_Scientist
Something must be wrong about the file, I suspect it's corrupted Bill, 'cause it's not populating in Sections C & D "What you will use..." and other clues, not populating Section K's TWN, SWN and Mash Volume, Colour (EBC), and Section E's "strike temp". It's not showing me the strike temp, as what you see.

It's annoying, but download a fresh new copy and try again. Save as... an .XLS each time.

I am not an open office user.

Maybe can you use Libre Office....?

Always save files in .xls format.

Sorry it's a PITA.
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Post #3 made 11 years ago
by HbgBill
I haven't populated C with the kg of grain.. just the grains.

I did the numbers in OO and saved as both ODS and .xls

Thanks for the reply

I've used that particular blank file for a few recipes and they worked fine except.. for the strike temps. They were always way too low.
Bill
Hop Song Brewing-Santa Rosa, California

Post #4 made 11 years ago
by Mad_Scientist
My bad. I started drinking already... :drink: Those Foster cans are 25 ounces.

I see that it's working now. :roll:

Such a small batch Bill, of 3 L? You don't want to make a regular sized batch in your Blichmann?

You may need to experiment with the offset factor in Section X, try 2 or a fraction like 2.1...
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Post #5 made 11 years ago
by HbgBill
Maybe that is an issue.. It should be 3 gallons? I'll recheck that. Nah, 3G is plenty.. I want to get a recipe down and then do a 5er. Don't want any 5g dumpers :D

Here is the corrected .xls spreadsheet
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Bill
Hop Song Brewing-Santa Rosa, California

Post #6 made 11 years ago
by HbgBill
Update.. been so long since I've been here.. I didn't realize there is now a PR3.1T I couldn't sleep well last night and started trying to fill that one in. Right off the bat, I noticed a calculation "problem"? Someone let me know if they see the same thing as I haven't cross checked it against any other calculator.. yet. Anyhow, I went to the conversion area and typed in3 (G) to see how many Liters I would need to fill in the cell. The conversion gave me 13.63 +/- a tad. When I put that in the cell, the conversion for the cell came up as 3.6 G. I don't know if that is a bug or not.. Just an FYI
Bill
Hop Song Brewing-Santa Rosa, California

Post #7 made 11 years ago
by Hints
Can you describe which cells you mean Bill? For example Section B, VIF. It's too hard to tell from the above which cells you mean. Also post the file if you can. Thanks.

[Please note that Hints does not reply to direct questions.]
Last edited by Hints on 31 Aug 2014, 00:19, edited 1 time in total.

Post #8 made 11 years ago
by HbgBill
Hi Hints.. it's the VIF in Sect B. I went directly to the "Unit Conversion" and typed in 3 in the Gallons to Liters.

Note: Seems to be correct this morning.. I don't know how the error occurred.

The (OLD) file is posted in Post #5

Completed file is enclosed. Something I don't understand is.. what causes the grams of grains on the left side to differ from the amounts on the right side of Section B ??? Something is modifying it.

Thanks. Bill
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Last edited by HbgBill on 31 Aug 2014, 00:56, edited 1 time in total.
Bill
Hop Song Brewing-Santa Rosa, California

Post #9 made 11 years ago
by majorphill
HbgBill
Welcome aboard :salute:

To answer your second question first (because it's easier) BIABacus is designed specifically for the "Brew In A Bag" method. Your original recipe was put together for an unknown system with an unknown "efficiency". BIABacus uses the original OG from your recipe and the ratios of grains in the original recipe to calculate the grain you will need to use in a BIAB system. In this case the BIAB system appears to be more "efficient" and requires less grain than the original. If you really want to confuse youself :o do a search on "efficiency" on this site. :sad:

If your using the original OG there is no need to enter it in the right hand side cell in Section D. Use that if you want to modify the OG from original. Try entering a larger number in that cell and watch how the grains you will use side changes.

BIABacus is used to convert an existing recipe that you have copied from somewhere to the BIAB method and then scale to any size you want. Try changing VIF in section B to see what I mean.

If you look at section B you will see a red warning that the mash size exceeds your kettle size. Have a look at section K where it tells you that the mash volume is 21.8 litres where as your kettle is 21.6 litres. That is easily overcome by holding back a couple of litres and adding it before the boil. See section W. Use that adjustment with caution as the secret to BIAB is that you use the full volume of water in your mash.

That was the easy answer :drink:

As to your original question as to why your strike temperature is always low, I don't know but here is a guess. My strike temperatures are never "correct" but are only off a couple of degrees so I am presuming the maths is correct. Is your water hotter at your temperature reading spot than elsewhere? Try stirring the water to even out any uneven temperature layers before you mash in. :pray:

And while I'm on a roll... is there a reason to modify your water profile in Section F . Unless you have an analysis of your water, those adjustments may not be needed.

Majorphill
Last edited by majorphill on 31 Aug 2014, 04:35, edited 1 time in total.

Post #10 made 11 years ago
by HbgBill
Thank you Majorphil.. I think it might have been more appropriate to address my problems one at a time rather than bombarding the forum with so much at once. I'll try better next time.

1. I'll accept the efficiency premise for the first iteration or two. Then if the efficiency turns out as expected, I'll have to learn how to make modifications so the two sides are not in disagreement.
2. I think you meant section "B"? rather than Section "D"? Correct me if Im wrong.
3. Understand the conversion comments, I think.. IOW.. this was really a 6g into the fermenter recipe that I simply halved. I should have possibly entered everything into the left side of "D" as the 6g amounts and i'd have been none the wiser about what happened on the right side :) However, this is a good learning opportunity.
4/5 Section B red warning. Yes, I'm aware of this issue. The problem is not with the boil.. rather, mashing. I will be mashing in a separate cooler/mash tun that I've used with not too much success before. So, I will be heating my strike water, pouring it into the MT and stirring in grains.. then covering. Limited success in that this MT, even if I pre-heat it will drop too many degrees. It's a small Igloo chest cooler. I think much of the problem is that I do not have enough volume of mash to buffer the temp losses. I don't seem to have any stratification of temperatures that I've been able to find.
6. Yes to the water modification. PP has addressed the same question in a brew I did quite some time ago.. My prior BIAB batch of Oatmeal Stout. I think I called it McQuackers Oatmeal Stout.. IIRC. That beer turned out quite well.. but it did not have quite the mouthfeel as I would have liked. I used WAY too little oats to build what I wanted. It was only a slight modification of Jamil and John's McQuackers OMS in Brewing Classic Styles. I'm hoping this recipe will improve on both mouthfeel and add a touch of chocolate. Only time will tell.
Last edited by HbgBill on 31 Aug 2014, 09:26, edited 1 time in total.
Bill
Hop Song Brewing-Santa Rosa, California

Post #11 made 11 years ago
by majorphill
HbgBill

I'll meet you halfway and settle on section C for the OG comment.

You are correct in saying enter the original recipe on the left hand side and then use the VIF to give you the right hand side that you want.

As to your temperature losses, BIAB normally uses one vessel so that when you mash in all your equipment is at strike temperature. The only thing that is cooler is the grain. In your case you could be heating your mashtun with your strike water even though you have preheated it.

Have you considered mashing in your kettle and insulating it with an old blanket or something similar ? In my case I can heat my kettle during the mash if needed so the problem goes away.

I have never tried your mash method but as you lose 10°F when you mash in why not start 10° higher.

You maybe right with your small volume but others do smaller batches successfully.



As your "McQuackers Oatmeal Stout" (great name) turned out quite well you are well on your way.

Majorphill

Post #12 made 11 years ago
by HbgBill
Thanks again for the rapid replies.

So, are you saying what I did with OG on left and VIF on the right was acceptable.. assuming that is what I want?

Yes, I have done everything in one kettle.. I still lost quite bit of temp despite wrapping in a sleeping bag and having an insulating pad under the kettle. Ultimately, I had to put it back on the burner while stirring to get the temps back up.. I had to do that a few times to try to maintain my temps during the 90 minutes. Part of the heat loss, I would gather, would come from opening the kettle to take pH samples two times.

I spelled the recipe name incorrectly. McQuaker Oatmeal Stout. After Quaker Oats.. probably the "xerox" or "kleenex" of oats cereal here in the US. I don't know if Quakers is sold out of the states.
Bill
Hop Song Brewing-Santa Rosa, California

Post #13 made 11 years ago
by jhough
Bill , if I remember correctly, the right side adjusts to your kettle size with the OG you are trying to achieve . If you are using a MLT and your temps are too low , I would raise your mash temp by 5 degrees and use a very thick blanket to try to keep temp in proper range.
J
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Post #14 made 11 years ago
by PistolPatch
HbgBill wrote:I'll accept the efficiency premise for the first iteration or two. Then if the efficiency turns out as expected, I'll have to learn how to make modifications so the two sides are not in disagreement.
Bill, the other brew's efficiency is not relevant to you so you should never be trying to match the efficiencies of your brew and the original brew. All the left hand side of Section C is for is to determine the percentages of the fermentables used. (For this reason, yes, you should have just typed in the numbers from the 6 gallon recipe on the left.)

The pic below shows what the Major meant by not needing the OG on the right...
OG on right.jpg
Regarding your strike temperature being too low, the reason is because you are using a cooler and some of the heat of your stile water is going into warming the cooler. When you BIAB in the kettle, the kettle is heated at the same time as the strike water so the strike water does not have to be as hot. Make sure that you check the temp of your strike water three or four minutes after adding it to the cooler and before striking.

Also there is no reason why you can't be using the other sections of the BIABacus. Any time you are finding it hard to use or reaching for a calculator, you are almost certainly over-thinking it!

(Wonder why you keep losing the protection on your sheet? You should only be able to put your cursor on the white cells. Thought you got that one sorted a few months ago?)

:peace:
PP

P.S. On a side-note, the BIABacus is not just for changing a traditional all-grain recipe into a BIAB all-grain recipe (which is mostly scaling), it can also be used to do any of the following...

1. Turn a BIAB all-grain recipe into a traditional recipe (use 'Water Used in a Sparge in Section W and 'Hot Liquor Retained by Grain in Section X).
2. Design a recipe of any sort (extract or all-grain).
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Last edited by PistolPatch on 31 Aug 2014, 14:12, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #15 made 11 years ago
by HbgBill
Thanks PP.. So if I understand the LEFT side C (which you have "X'd" out) would be if I wanted to change the recipe from a 1.062 OG to something that might be a more sessionable.. one with a lower OG/FG?
***********
Re not being able to maintain the MT temps. I've tried both one pot and the cooler MT. I've not been able to maintain in either.

One Pot.. The ability to add heat to my kettle during mashing is an advantage in using this method. I heavily blanket the kettle with a thick sleeping bag all the way around.. top/bottom/sides. Still lose about 10*.. but I can reheat it. I might try putting some of that reflective material around the kettle before putting it to bed in the sleeping bag. I have some of that laying around. I might try that this time

Cooler.. Actually, I preheat the cooler with water that is about 15-20*F hotter than my strike temp. I still can't maintain the mash temp. Again, I think it has to do with the sheer lack of volume I'm trying to maintain.
************

Protection on my sheet? Sorry, I know nothing about protection. Every so often, I see a popup that mentions something about a password.. but, I don't know how to handle that part yet. The other part I need to learn about is how to lock the screen I'm working with in place. Whenever I touch my mouse, the screen wants to "scroll" sideways and I have to pull it back into place to keep working.. argghh.
***********
It's all a relatively steep learning curve for a not-so-tech savvy OLD man.. e.g. I gave up on Beersmith until I get a tutor :)

Cheers, Bill
Bill
Hop Song Brewing-Santa Rosa, California

Post #16 made 11 years ago
by PistolPatch
Bill, I think we're going to have to communicate one on one (telephonically), on this. Something weird is going on here and I am dead sure it is exclusive to you. Get yourself set up on Skype and we can arrange a time to talk and solve this in one hit.

When you get set up on Skype, please PM me with full details of how to correspond with you. I'm always short on time so, please, make sure you do everything you can to make our correspondence very fast and easy (i.e. research the time differences etc).

The sooner we get your problem solved, the sooner you might be able to help others perhaps?

PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 31 Aug 2014, 22:31, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #17 made 11 years ago
by HbgBill
I am set up on Skype and do it with my children who are scattered. Please let me know what day and time works best for you. I'm fairly flexible.

7am here is 9pm in Perth
and
If I have it correctly, 7pm here it is 9am in Perth.. you are 14 hours ahead of me.

BTW, I just purchased Office 365 for my iMac.. It has the Microsoft Office Suite on it which includes Excel. However, I read someplace recently that it doesn't work all that well on the Mac. I don't know. It has not been installed yet as I'm waiting to get more detailed info on that product. I would like to try switching to Libre first.. before we chat.. if that makes any sense.
Bill
Hop Song Brewing-Santa Rosa, California

Post #19 made 11 years ago
by PistolPatch
You de man Bill :salute:. Always nice to meet a fellow brewer face to face. Wish I had more time to do that. Also a lot faster/easier to get some things sorted face to face rather than writing to and fro.

Great to meet you properly Bill :peace:.
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