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Continual off flavors

Post #1 made 12 years ago
by hasunhats
Hi,

I am a new BIAB brewer, doing small batches (1-2 gallons). Started with Brooklyn Brewing kit and then moved on to brewing scaled down recipes from books.

I've made about 8-9 batches, all grain, biab, all ales with US-05 that I let hydrate; also made a small starter with one to see if that made a difference - nope.

Each batch is having an off flavor that seems to be picked up after fermentation. When I transfer the wort to the bottling pot and check the OG, also taste the sample a bit and the taste is pretty decent.

But something seems to happen between adding priming sugar, through bottling, through conditioning, and finally trying the beer and a medicinal, not too strong but strong enough off smell. Maybe plastic-like? Overly malty? Hop-to-malt ratio off?

This last one was a SMaSH with 2-row (100% of grain bill), Cascade @ 60, 15, 1 min (15 grams each time). But no matter the recipe it seems to develop the same off smell, taste. Maybe even earthy? Hard to describe.

I have direct control over fermentation temps (converted small fridge) so I know that's not the issue. I sanitize all my equipment before and after each use.

Could it be due to my reusing older bottles? I clean them out but haven't replaced them in a year or so.

Should I soak everything in oxyclean before bottling?

Any ideas I can try? I LOVE brewing and want to get this process down and actually make some good enough to share!

Please let me know and I'll provide any info needed to help identify issues!

EDIT: I do add campden tablets to all water before! Have tried both bottled spring water from the store, as well as tap - both give the same result.
Last edited by hasunhats on 14 May 2014, 22:09, edited 1 time in total.

Post #2 made 12 years ago
by Rick
Sounds like excessive chlorine in your water, to me. Are you using city tap water by any chance?
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Post #3 made 12 years ago
by hasunhats
Rick wrote:Sounds like excessive chlorine in your water, to me. Are you using city tap water by any chance?
Thanks for this - just edited main post. I do add campden tablets and have tried both bottled spring water and tap - same results both ways :nup:
Last edited by hasunhats on 14 May 2014, 22:10, edited 1 time in total.

Post #4 made 12 years ago
by PistolPatch
Welcome to the forum hasunhats :salute:,

I think you have an infection here. A few things...

It's easy to start brewing good beer. It is a lot harder to keep doing it because of infections slowly creeping in.

You need to use two chemicals when cleaning/sanitising. You need a base such as PBW to help remove soils and then you need an acid such as Starsan to remove micro-mineral films and the detergent.

If you have a tap on yor bottling bucket, you need to throw that tap away. Preferably break it in two (you can break them in two without actually breaking them) and see what it smells like but replace it anyway. Thoroughly clean and brush the thread on your bottling bucket with PBW.

Have your bottles been treated with both base and acid? If not, micro films build up over time they can harbour bacteria. The first culprit though will always be your tap (and bottling wand).

If you hav a kettle tap, also pull that apart and smell it occasionally.

:peace:
PP
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Post #5 made 12 years ago
by hasunhats
PistolPatch wrote:Welcome to the forum hasunhats :salute:,

I think you have an infection here. A few things...

It's easy to start brewing good beer. It is a lot harder to keep doing it because of infections slowly creeping in.

You need to use two chemicals when cleaning/sanitising. You need a base such as PBW to help remove soils and then you need an acid such as Starsan to remove micro-mineral films and the detergent.

If you have a tap on yor bottling bucket, you need to throw that tap away. Preferably break it in two (you can break them in two without actually breaking them) and see what it smells like but replace it anyway. Thoroughly clean and brush the thread on your bottling bucket with PBW.

Have your bottles been treated with both base and acid? If not, micro films build up over time they can harbour bacteria. The first culprit though will always be your tap (and bottling wand).

If you hav a kettle tap, also pull that apart and smell it occasionally.

:peace:
PP
Thank you!

I use oxyclean with treated water then rinse with treated water, then sanitize with treated water and starsan.

Do I also need PBW?

I don't use valves or taps. I siphon to bottling pot where priming sugar mixture is added. All items are cleaned with oxyclean before, rinsed with treated water, starsan with treated water. I do this same process to bottles as well. Have replaced auto siphon and tubing (silicone) so that may not be the issue.
Last edited by hasunhats on 14 May 2014, 23:00, edited 1 time in total.

Post #6 made 12 years ago
by JackRussel
Sounds like your process is good in terms of infection risk. I'm wondering if the taste is from the Oxyclean not being rinsed well enough. Hot water rinse is supposed to work better than cold, and PBW is supposed rinse easier than Oxy. I use one of these for rinsing bottles and carboys https://homebrewsupplies.ca/product/385 ... pray-wand/ . You didn't mention it, but are you cleaning, rinsing and sanitizing the pot in the same manner before bottling as well?
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Post #7 made 12 years ago
by hasunhats
Thanks!

I am diligent in making sure the oxyclean is washed away. Yes, I do the same cleaning process to all items before bottling.


I actually just ordered some new bottles, and PBW to see if these new elements help in any way.

Post #12 made 12 years ago
by JackRussel
OK, I'm gonna ask a bunch of questions to better understand your process.

1 How long are you fermenting?
2 What temperature are you fermenting at? Ambient or beer temp?
3 How long are you allowing the bottles to carb up?
4 Are you pitching the whole package of yeast? This would be overpitching for a 1 Gallon batch if you are.
5 What range have your OG's been? ie 1.048-1.088
6 Are you cold crashing prior to bottling?
7 Are you seeing a lot of sediment in your cold bottles?

Just a suggestion here. You could leave a bottle at room temp for a few months to rule out infection. Just be aware that you may end up with a bottle bomb if there is an infection. Keep it in something you feel safe with and protect your eyes when handling.
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Post #14 made 12 years ago
by hasunhats
I am using about 1/4 a tablet per gallon, give or take a few crumbs.

1. I have tried the same beer at different times. As little as two weeks and as long as 5. Both resulted in the same off flavor.

2. Ambient temp is low -mid 60s, and beer temp is mid-high 60s (mostly between 66-68 f)

3. I let them carb around 3 weeks. But I always leave a bottle or few to see how they develop. Sometimes up to 6 weeks.

4. I have pitched as low as say 25% of the pack, and I've tried half a pack, and a whole pack. All had the flavor! Also tried liquid yeast straight from bottle, starter from liquid and a starter and hydrated version of the dry yeast..

5. OGs for my pales, IPAs are right around 1.055-1.065.

6. I have not tried cold crashing as the methods and books I've read on the subject regarding small batches did not say to do so. Will this have a large impact on what the resulting beer will taste like? What process should I follow to cold crash a 1 gallon batch?

7. I am seeing some sediment, yes! Regardless how well I filter I do see sediment! This could very well be worth looking into... what could cause this?

Good idea to leave a bottle out for a few months... I have a spare styrofoam cooler I can put it in to keep it safe if it does burst!

Post #15 made 12 years ago
by mally
Problems like this can sometimes be real hard to nail down :dunno:

I do have a few more questions for you though;

What is your procedure & what do you use for priming?
hasunhats wrote:7. I am seeing some sediment, yes! Regardless how well I filter I do see sediment! This could very well be worth looking into... what could cause this?
How & what are you filtering with?
Last edited by mally on 15 May 2014, 02:45, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #16 made 12 years ago
by hasunhats
I boil 1 cup water and dissolve 1 ounce corn sugar. Let this cool and add to wort then add to fermenter, pitch, continue on.

I'm not filtering unless you mean by pouring through sanitized filter when adding to fermenter?

Post #17 made 12 years ago
by JackRussel
Cold crashing will help the bulk of the yeast settle out and make a fairly compacted cake on the bottom of your fermenter. There will still be more than enough yeast left to carb your beer. I'd stick it in the fridge anywhere from 1-4 days prior to bottling. Cold crashing should also reduce the amount of sediment you are seeing. You will always have sediment in bottle conditioned beers. It is just yeast that has settled to the bottom of the bottle.

I know this would be tough with 1 gallon batches, but I found that when I was bottling, my beers had a major improvement in taste around the 5-6 week mark for average gravity beers. You mentioned filtering. What are you using to filter and what is your procedure? How long are you chilling your bottles before drinking? Are you fermenting in a growler?
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Post #18 made 12 years ago
by hasunhats
I'm fermenting in a 1 gallon glass carboy.

I'm letting some bottles chill a month or longer, hoping they will improve but none do!

What and when should I be filtering? I siphon from pot to fermenter, fermenter to priming pot, priming pot to bottles; clean siphon very well/sanitize. Also have replaced it two batches ago, just to see if it was that. Take it apart completely to clean.

Post #19 made 12 years ago
by JackRussel
hasunhats wrote:I boil 1 cup water and dissolve 1 ounce corn sugar. Let this cool and add to wort then add to fermenter, pitch, continue on.

I'm not filtering unless you mean by pouring through sanitized filter when adding to fermenter?
From the sounds of your process, you will be stirring up all the yeast and trub from the bottom of the fermenter. You should add your priming solution to your bottling pot and then syphon your beer in to the pot. You want the beer to mix with your priming solution, but not to splash or aerate. Wort is unfermented beer, it is flat beer at the time of bottling. Not to be nitpicky :smoke: .
Last edited by JackRussel on 15 May 2014, 03:16, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #22 made 12 years ago
by DaveDoran
My thoughts on this would be
If you are tasting the beer as it comes out of the fermenter and it tastes good then you can rule out an infection in your brewhouse gear (kettle, mash, fermentor etc). Sounds like you follow through with the sanitisation aspect anyway.
Silly question but do you pour a sample into a glass taste and then tip the remaining beer back into the fermenter or bottling bucket.

I would be thinking along the lines of getting a 2L bottle (sorry not sure what that is in gallons) and bottle straight from fermenter to this and prime that. Bottle the remaining as usual. This way you can do a side by side comparison.
If they both come back tasting the same then the infection is in the fermentor or mashtun
If the 2l bottle tastes fine then I would be looking at the bottling bucket or the bottles etc.

Post #24 made 12 years ago
by hasunhats
Good points all around!

I'm going to brew once the new bottles come in and will do a few test batches with small variations on what was discussed here. Will report back with my results! Thank you all!

Post #25 made 12 years ago
by JackRussel
Some other things to think about. 1/4 tablet of campden is still more than you need. More like 1/8 of a tablet would be enough. I doubt it would be the campden though, since the flavour comes post fermentation. You could just filter your water and do away with the campden. Did you add the campden to the bottled water batch also? You could also taste your campden treated water to test.

I am starting to suspect your bottles. Are they glass or plastic? Clear, green or brown? If they are clear or green, your beer may go skunky if they aren't kept in the dark. If they are plastic, do they have those little gaskets in the caps? Do you remove the gaskets for cleaning and sanitizing? You also want to avoid scratching plastics by using a brush or anything abrasive on the inside.
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