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Stupidity and sanity check before first BIAB

Post #1 made 11 years ago
by colinb4987
OK, so this is going to be a *long* first post. I've never brewed before, so realise I'm going quite far in at the deep end - but that's in part deliberate, as I tend to understand complex things better by puzzling them through as I do them rather than breaking them down into nice easy simple steps...

So, that said, this first attempt will be AG BIAB, No-chill, fermenting in the chill vessel. The only part of that which might be open for debate is the fermenting in the chill vessel. The rest, for better or worse, I am set on this path

I've read around every thread I could find on the above, both here and on other forums (JBK, homebrewforum.co.uk), and have come to the below as a synthesis of what I believe I need to do. I'd be exceedingly grateful if someone could take a look, steer me in better directions where necessary, and point out omissions (of which I'm sure there are many). In addition to the method, there's also the question of necessary equipment - currently I've a PID 40l Buffalo, and that's it. Should this all work out well, I plan to rewrite this post and subsequent into some sort of a guide for others who decide to jump into this part of the deep end. Throughout there are some questions, in square brackets [xxx?]

Preparation
1) Choose high integrity recipe - in this case, NRB's All Amarillo APA in BIABacus, adapted version included as attachment

2) Prep boiler (sanitise throughout including taps) - in this case, as mentioned, a 40l PID-modified Buffalo. Diameter 380mm, internal height 370mm => Max internal capacity 42l

3) Add cold water to volume specified by recipe - here 36.38l [does the hardness of the water matter? Here in London it's certainly hard, if not very hard, water]

4) Bring to strike temperature - here 69.2C

5) While bringing to strike, bag into water, ensuring no contact between element and bag.

Mash in
6) Once at strike, put crushed grain into bag stirring slowly to ensure thoroughly wetted with plastic or metal spoon - here 4713g JW Traditional Ale, 943g Munich 1, 471g Caraamber

7) Mash for time specified in recipe at temperature - here 90mins at 66C

8) Remove grain bag, squeezing out as much water as possible, and leave to rest on rack over boiler

9a) [s][What's mashout? Seems to be for anything from 1-15mins depending on recipe][/s] Not needed for BIAB (see comment from BobBrews)

Boil
9) Simultaneously crank PID to setting to produce rolling boil - here, 110C does the trick

10) Check volume (=VIK=VIB) just as the wort starts to boil, and take a sample for rapid cooling to ambient in order to take gravity reading - here it should be 33.83l

11) Boil for time specified in recipe - here 90mins

12) Add hops in hopsocks at times specified in recipe - here Amarillo after 30mins (13g), 70mins (27.3g), and 85mins (30.8g) [question r.e. BIABacus recipes here - does further modification a la http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/explori" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... ost1542375 need to take place to account for no-chill?]

13) Turn off boil at 90mins, check volume, take sample for cooling to ambient to test gravity - here should be 26.55l

[s]13a) [Take sample to test for OG? Is there any point to refractometer vs. hydrometer? Indeed is OG sampling needed?][/s]

Chill
14) Siphon into sanitised no-chill container, taking care not to aerate the wort more than necessary - here, using eBay 25l HDPE gerry cans and a T-siphon made from silicone hosing [Any preference on diameter or recommendations on length?], a nylon barb t-joint, and a hose clamp (see http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/flyguys" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... hon-25774/ for details)

15) Squeeze air out of container, seal with lid

16) Place on side for 10mins to allow hot wort to come into prolonged contact with handle and lid

17) Place upright and leave to cool until at pitching temperature [Is there a preferred pitching temperature for yeast? Or is it basically, in this method at least, room temperature?]

17a) There is no specific timelimit on by when the next steps must be taken

Ferment
18) Take sample for OG, measure volume

19) Tighten lid up and shake, or otherwise find a way to agitate the wort

20) Undo lid and pour in yeast or starter. Keep starsan spray handy and replace lid in between doses of yeast if necessary. Here, yeast is Safale US-05

21) Tighten lid, then back off a few turns so it is loose but can't be knocked off

22) Ferment as per recipe - here 10 days at 17C [cool room in this house, as no space for fermentation fridge]

Bottle
23) Sanitise second container or bucket fitted with tap as low down as possible, as well as bottles and caps

24) Prepare priming sugar for batch (dissolve and simmer for 5mins) [s][How do you now how much if any priming sugar is needed? What kind? This part here is thoroughly opaque to me][/s] See answer and link from Bundy below. TL:DR Nobody understands it properly, case-by-case basis

25) Empty bottling bucket of sanitiser, place priming sugar in bucket

26) Siphon from fermentation vessel into bottling bucket, ensuring the syrup is mixed in, but the beer's not being splashed around

27) Put Little Bottler on bottling bucket tap

28) Insert Little Bottler into first sanitised bottle, fill, remove, cap

29) Repeat until all bottles full

30) Condition as per recipe - here a further 10 days


Equipment needed
Boiler w/ PID
If no PID, thermometer
Timer
Grain bag
Metal/Plastic spoon
Winch/Hoist/HTFU
Rack
Heatproof gloves/HTFU
Hopsocks (paint strainer bags, or second grain bag)
No-chill container (volume suitable to your EoBV)
Hydrometer or Refractometer
Silicone tubing
Nylon t-joint
Tube clamp
Bottling bucket with tap
Sufficient bottles for your final volume to be bottled, with caps
Little Bottler

Consumables needed
Water
Grain
Hops
Water softener
Yeast
Sanitiser [Any preferences between e.g. Starsan, VWP, Sodium perchlorate)
Sugar [granulated? caster? brewing?]


Edit 090414: Updated process
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Last edited by colinb4987 on 08 Apr 2014, 19:09, edited 2 times in total.

Post #2 made 11 years ago
by BobBrews
colinb4987,

(9a) Mashout, "mash out" specifically raising the temperature of the grain bed to stop enzymatic activity (168 F) (74.5C), and reducing mash viscosity so it can drain better?? Left over step from 3V brewing.

Not Needed! As you bring your wort up to boiling temps you can leave your bag in the pot (not touching the heat source)? You can leave your grain bag in to the aforementioned temps and pull it out as you reach the temps. You then can squeeze if you want.

Your comprehensive list will help a newbie brewer like yourself. The detail is too much for a old man like myself to read. I get tired reading the label on a can of soup?

My first list was like this.

1. Bring the water temp to about 5 degrees above the required mash temp and place bag full of grain in for a hour. Hope that the temperatures stabilize down to the required mash temp? If not? so what?

2. Pull the bag out squeezing a little and boiling the wort for a hour adding hops when required. I didn't always put the hops in at the right time? Oh Well?

3. After a hour transfer the wort into a no-chill container and wait until it gets cool enough and add the yeast and air lock. Now (when cool) I just cover the opening with a sanitized plastic bag and a rubber band until the majority of the violent fermentation is done. Then I use the airlock.

4. Transfer to a keg, carbonate and drink. :drink:

Now I substitute 90 minutes for 60.

Brewing is easy once you get the hang of it. Until the first time you brew it seems daunting. After your first brew you will say "That was easier than I thought"!

Good luck!
Sanitized plastic bag secured with rubber band.
_B172790.JPG
Inflated. I used a pin to puncture bag.
_B172795.JPG
I made these.
_B272746.JPG
Oop's
_B232788.JPG
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Last edited by BobBrews on 08 Apr 2014, 21:43, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #3 made 11 years ago
by Yettiman
I like your attention to detail and the great layout, makes for an easy read.

Having said that, too late for me to to compare it to my own brew day check list (nearly midnight)

I'll get on to that in the week, just wanted to let you know what a great post it is. If I spot anything amiss I'll certainly let you know
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Post #4 made 11 years ago
by PistolPatch
Well done Colin on jumping straight into all-grain :thumbs:.

Your checklist looks nice and thorough and can certainly make your first brew days go far more smoothly until everything becomes second nature. Writing a guide can be hard as there are, believe it or not, so many different sets of equipment and circumstances, even for BIAB brewers. Just when you think you have all bases covered something else pops up :lol:

Here's a few thoughts...

- Weigh all your grains and hops the night before if possible and lay your equipment out.
- No need to sanitise kettle before the boil but do see the end ofthis post for how to do a nostril test on your tap.
- Don't worry if your VIK (now VIB) does not match. Do it just as the wort comes to the boil BUT...
- Also take a gravity sample at that time as volume without gravity doesn't tell us anything useful. Get a sample form the kettle, cool it to ambient temperature in freezer or ice bath and then take a reading. This brings me to...

Other volume and gravity measurements.

Hot volume measurements are pretty hard to get accurate but they can help to confirm if there is a problem so try and take them if you can. So, yes, if no-chilling, do a volume and gravity check at the end of the boil once again cooling your sample.

BUT, if you only are able to take one set of measurements, here are the ones you should take...

1. Gravity at pitching.
2. Volume of Ambient Wort. (In your case this will be the sum of the volume of any junk left in the kettle plus the volume of any junk left in the cube plus Volume into Fermentor.

Finally, agitate your wort by pouring the cube into the fermentor plus giving it a bit of a stir. If you have a lot of bubble son top of the wort, that's great. Just sprinkle the US-05 dried yeast on the top of these bubbles. One sprinkle and that is it.

I'll leave other sections and questions up to Yetti and others. Btw, your file is perfect, no problems there.

;)
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 09 Apr 2014, 12:43, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #5 made 11 years ago
by bundy
Hi Colin, my 2 cents worth from a fellow newbie not long gone through his initiation as you are about to. :champ:

You mention putting all your grain in a bag before then lowering the bag and grain into your urn. I understood it is better to have your bag in position in the urn and then gently add the grain into the water (and bag) I understand you also stir gently to ensure you don't get "dough balls". Never heard of anyone lowering the entire bag with grain bill in as you suggest. Maybe it is done but I have never read about that method.

Also once you have all your grain in at strike look to wrap or insulate your urn to help to prevent heat loss during the mash. Some use doonas, or sleeping bags, whilst others set up a more permanent insulation system.

Re your question on priming sugar and bulk priming, there was a bit of discussion about this recently. Certain styles require certain carbonation levels and that determines how much sugar or dextrose you will add. Which calculator though you use to get that figure (Biabicus has one) is up for debate as you can see here.
http://www.biabrewer.info/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=2643

Lastly when you take your gravity readings, pre and post boil they should be taken at or around pitching temp. I took mine at very high temps and adjusted with calculators but was told that is bad practice and prone to big errors. (As I see PP has already mentioned.)

Enjoy your first brew day. I did and love the process, it's pretty easy if you plan ahead which you have obviously done. Lastly BiabIcus is a godsend follow what it and all the wise me on here advise and you can't go wrong. To top it off you will end up creating something beautiful.....they call it Beer!
:thumbs:
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Post #6 made 11 years ago
by colinb4987
BobBrews wrote:colinb4987,

(9a) Mashout, "mash out" specifically raising the temperature of the grain bed to stop enzymatic activity (168 F) (74.5C), and reducing mash viscosity so it can drain better?? Left over step from 3V brewing.

Not Needed! As you bring your wort up to boiling temps you can leave your bag in the pot (not touching the heat source)? You can leave your grain bag in to the aforementioned temps and pull it out as you reach the temps. You then can squeeze if you want.

Thanks for the explanation Bob, and the additional thoughts r.e. accommodating the CO2. It is indeed a very detailed process description, but as ever, the devil's in the details! In part it's in order that I can get a complete list of kit together, buy the bits, and not have to pay multiples of P&P every time...!
Last edited by colinb4987 on 09 Apr 2014, 21:15, edited 1 time in total.

Post #7 made 11 years ago
by colinb4987
Yettiman wrote:I like your attention to detail and the great layout, makes for an easy read.

Having said that, too late for me to to compare it to my own brew day check list (nearly midnight)

I'll get on to that in the week, just wanted to let you know what a great post it is. If I spot anything amiss I'll certainly let you know

Glad you found it easy to read! Much appreciate any second looks, valuable to know how it matches to others' processes
Last edited by colinb4987 on 09 Apr 2014, 21:17, edited 1 time in total.

Post #8 made 11 years ago
by colinb4987
PistolPatch wrote:Well done Colin on jumping straight into all-grain :thumbs:.

Your checklist looks nice and thorough and can certainly make your first brew days go far more smoothly until everything becomes second nature. Writing a guide can be hard as there are, believe it or not, so many different sets of equipment and circumstances, even for BIAB brewers. Just when you think you have all bases covered something else pops up :lol:

Here's a few thoughts...

- Weigh all your grains and hops the night before if possible and lay your equipment out.
- No need to sanitise kettle before the boil but do see the end ofthis post for how to do a nostril test on your tap.
- Don't worry if your VIK (now VIB) does not match. Do it just as the wort comes to the boil BUT...
- Also take a gravity sample at that time as volume without gravity doesn't tell us anything useful. Get a sample form the kettle, cool it to ambient temperature in freezer or ice bath and then take a reading. This brings me to...

Other volume and gravity measurements.

Hot volume measurements are pretty hard to get accurate but they can help to confirm if there is a problem so try and take them if you can. So, yes, if no-chilling, do a volume and gravity check at the end of the boil once again cooling your sample.

BUT, if you only are able to take one set of measurements, here are the ones you should take...

1. Gravity at pitching.
2. Volume of Ambient Wort. (In your case this will be the sum of the volume of any junk left in the kettle plus the volume of any junk left in the cube plus Volume into Fermentor.

Finally, agitate your wort by pouring the cube into the fermentor plus giving it a bit of a stir. If you have a lot of bubble son top of the wort, that's great. Just sprinkle the US-05 dried yeast on the top of these bubbles. One sprinkle and that is it.

I'll leave other sections and questions up to Yetti and others. Btw, your file is perfect, no problems there.

;)
PP
Thanks for the extra suggestions, I'll roll them into the plan.

If I understand the volume/gravity sampling correctly then, an ideal set of samples to take would be
1) Volume in kettle/boiler at start of boil (wort just as it begins to boil), plus sample for gravity once cooled to hydrometer's calibrated temperature
2) Volume in boiler at end of boil, plus sample (for cooling etc.)
3) Volume into FV, plus boiler deadspace, plus post-chilling trub, plus sample (all already at ambient); how is this different to (2)?
4) Volume into bottles, plus sample

If that is the case, I can see this lets us track the evolution of sugar concentrations through the process, post hoc identifying where errors crept in. Presumably the only parts that are controllable would be:
1) VIK at start of boil too high/gravity too low => boil for longer
2) VIB at end of boil too high/gravity too low => boil for longer
3) VIB at end of boil too low/gravity too high => live with it
4) rest => live with it
Last edited by colinb4987 on 09 Apr 2014, 21:28, edited 1 time in total.

Post #9 made 11 years ago
by colinb4987
bundy wrote:Hi Colin, my 2 cents worth from a fellow newbie not long gone through his initiation as you are about to. :champ:

You mention putting all your grain in a bag before then lowering the bag and grain into your urn. I understood it is better to have your bag in position in the urn and then gently add the grain into the water (and bag) I understand you also stir gently to ensure you don't get "dough balls". Never heard of anyone lowering the entire bag with grain bill in as you suggest. Maybe it is done but I have never read about that method.

Also once you have all your grain in at strike look to wrap or insulate your urn to help to prevent heat loss during the mash. Some use doonas, or sleeping bags, whilst others set up a more permanent insulation system.

Re your question on priming sugar and bulk priming, there was a bit of discussion about this recently. Certain styles require certain carbonation levels and that determines how much sugar or dextrose you will add. Which calculator though you use to get that figure (Biabicus has one) is up for debate as you can see here.
viewtopic.php?f=51&t=2643

Lastly when you take your gravity readings, pre and post boil they should be taken at or around pitching temp. I took mine at very high temps and adjusted with calculators but was told that is bad practice and prone to big errors. (As I see PP has already mentioned.)

Enjoy your first brew day. I did and love the process, it's pretty easy if you plan ahead which you have obviously done. Lastly BiabIcus is a godsend follow what it and all the wise me on here advise and you can't go wrong. To top it off you will end up creating something beautiful.....they call it Beer!
:thumbs:
Bundy, great catch on the grain addition step. They way you suggest is actually what I had in my mind's eye, but it's absolutely not what I've written above. Will make that correction too!

The tip with the insulation's handy; I'll have to recalibrate the PID if I do so though. Not the end of the world, but just another thing to do before kicking off my first brew. I suspect that might fall by the wayside, at least initially.

R.e. priming discussion - puts my mind at ease that there is no reliable answer, but at the same time it rather bugs me that there isn't! Is this the kind of information that is normally included in recipes then, or simply left to "the brewer's art" on a per-batch basis
Last edited by colinb4987 on 09 Apr 2014, 21:41, edited 1 time in total.

Post #10 made 11 years ago
by PistolPatch
Colin, I'll reply in purple below.
colinb4987 wrote:Thanks for the extra suggestions, I'll roll them into the plan.

If I understand the volume/gravity sampling correctly then, an ideal set of samples to take would be

1) Volume in kettle/boiler at start of boil (wort just as it begins to boil), plus sample for gravity once cooled to hydrometer's calibrated temperature

2) Volume in boiler at end of boil, plus sample (for cooling etc.)

3) Volume into FV, plus boiler deadspace, plus post-chilling trub, plus sample (all already at ambient); how is this different to (2)? I assume you are asking if the gravity sample at this point would be different from that at the end of the boil? It shouldn't be. This sample acts as a double-check as no single readings on a brew are reliable.

Also, on the deadspace, that is not a great term. Stick with 'KFL - Kettle to Fermentor Loss'. In fact, learn and stick with the terms used in the latest BIABacus as these have been very carefully thought out so as they work for all brewers. For example, if your kettle set-up is well designed, you won't have a significant deadspace in your kettle. The limiting factor will be the crap at the bottom of your kettle.

4) Volume into bottles, plus sample. The sample here would give you final gravity. But, remember it is just one reading.

If that is the case, I can see this lets us track the evolution of sugar concentrations through the process, post hoc identifying where errors crept in. Presumably the only parts that are controllable would be: No, you can't trust single readings so you won't be able to identify an error creeping in. Do an advanced search of my posts here that contain the words, "numbers" "respect" and " disrespect". You have to respect trends and disrespect individual measurements so...

1) VIK at start of boil too high/gravity too low => boil for longer No. Even though you will hear occasionally on forums and even sometimes on podcasts with very respected brewers, instructions such as, "Boil down until you reach a gravity of x, that is very bad advice. Apart from not being able to respect a single gravity reading for many reasons, the other factor is that you don't know what your evaporation rate will be. You can estimate it but it can vary wildly especially if you brew outside.

2) VIB at end of boil too high/gravity too low => boil for longer No. Because this will over-cook your hops.Any flavour and aroma hops would be crucified.

3) VIB at end of boil too low/gravity too high => live with it. No, in this situation, assuming your figures above confirm, then you can do a post-boil dilution.

4) rest => live with it Maybe, maybe not. It depends on how much you have respected numbers before the brew even starts, how many measurements you take that confirm each other, how much you can respect/disrespect your instruments and there is probably more so let's get to the essentials...
Your main concerns, measurement-wise, on your first brew or two should be:

1: Ensuring your ingredient weights are correct. What can you do to double-check your ingredient weight? Without doing that, then you need to disrespect your other measurements even more.

2. How many thermometers have you got? Nearly all thermometers are inaccurate especially at mash temperature. If you only have one, then you are flying wildly and will need to disrespect your other measurements even more. An all-grain brew can fall down significantly due to a poor "mash" thermometer. My advice is buy at least a few several different thermometers of different brands.

3. If you do those two things above and have good cleanliness etc, then it is very hard to go wrong.

:peace:
PP

P.S. You asked bundy about priming. If you hang around this site long enough, you will find a lot of major deficiencies in current home-brewing knowledge that this site has identified and either fixed or is still fixing. Terminology was one of the first things taken on as terminology is the building block of anything. Much more has been taken on as well Colin so make this site your central source of brewing sanity.

The first post any member shoud read on this forum is this one. Being a member here means you are in with the original BIAB pioneers who are now pioneering 'fixes' to many other areas of home brewing.
Last edited by PistolPatch on 10 Apr 2014, 21:10, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #11 made 11 years ago
by pat86
how did this brew go?!

I love the preparation and list but I think I am naturally more inclined to be about 70% Bob-esque and 30% Colin! Bob - cool bag-lock, I haven't seen that before or a FV quite like that so thanks for the pics!

I think it is awesome going straight to AG, for me it was a lot less intensive since I already brewed kits, extracts and steeping grains, etc. so I just needed a bigger bag and some more grain.

While preparation is awesome, don't forget to have fun and with all the info out there I would say it almost impossible not to make a decent beer!

Post #12 made 11 years ago
by colinb4987
Rather embarrassingly, I haven't gotten around to it yet. Work's been keeping me on my toes and generally getting in the way of anything non-work related! I'll report back once I've actually gotten it done...

Thanks for all the encouragement

Post #13 made 11 years ago
by colinb4987
Right, well, I said I'd report back once it was done, and now it is. I can't quite believe it's taken me 3 months to get from theory to practice, but at least I have!

Observations:
1) The checklist, while detailed, was very helpful. I printed it off and scribbled weights, temperatures, and observations (chiefly Brix readings) on top, much as I would have done were it a lab protocol
2) My intended plan to monitor volume (by weight, SG, temperature, and back-calculate) failed utterly. I was able to get the initial volume in correctly by weight (RT water), but then realised my digital scales wouldn't stay on for the duration of the mash and boil - and I wasn't about the start heaving 35kg of hot liquor around just so I could weigh it!
3) Siphoning is hard! The co-ordination required to get the fluid moving, avoid contamination, burnt mouth, and spraying wort over the kitchen was surprising - and this despite practice attempts with cold water
4) I had a lot more KFL than expected. Practice siphoning had given me about 0.7l deadspace, which I duly used in my calculation. Naturally though I omitted the volume of trub generated, so that cost me. All in all, I had about 4l KFL, which, seen in the context of BIABacus' automatic 3.7l assumption, doesn't seem quite so bad
5) No-chill and ferment-in-cube make life *so* easy. That said, the beer's not finished yet, so I probably ought to reserve judgment especially on the latter
6) Weighing and laying out all the ingredients while the liquor's coming to strike make life so very simple when brewing's happening
7) All in all, this took me 4 hours, of which maybe 90mins was actually in full attendance

Now, we wait and see how the bottling and conditioning go...!
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