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Post #1 made 13 years ago
by alanem
I've been having trouble with my BIAB'S tasting sort of sour/bitter and I am not sure why. I am very thorough and careful with sanitation and clean/sterelise everything post boil. I have been eliminating any and all causes of the problem and I have come down to the cubing. I usually wait for 10mins after I finish my boil then I put a sterelised funnel into my cube and turn the tap on my kettle and let it run down into the cube, lately I have been doing a lot of reading up and it appears that is not a good idea. Am I doing harm to my beer? Is this causing the taste in my beer? Is aeration a problem? How should I cube it? Can anyone help?
I used to spill more than I drink these days!

Post #2 made 13 years ago
by hashie
You should cube however is best for you. That said it is very likely that your tap is the problem, just ask Pistolpatch, he loves taps :)

When I transfer, I use a stainless racking cane and silicone hose and siphon the hot wort into the cube. Sometimes I wait 10 minutes from boil end sometimes I don't. I just start as soon as the flame goes out.

Using your tap and funnel is not a bad thing, but when was the last time you pulled the tap apart and cleaned it? It should be done every brew, or better still, take the tap out and plug the hole to eliminate that variable.
"It's beer Jim, but not as we know it."

Post #3 made 13 years ago
by alanem
hashie wrote:You should cube however is best for you. That said it is very likely that your tap is the problem, just ask Pistolpatch, he loves taps :)

When I transfer, I use a stainless racking cane and silicone hose and siphon the hot wort into the cube. Sometimes I wait 10 minutes from boil end sometimes I don't. I just start as soon as the flame goes out.

Using your tap and funnel is not a bad thing, but when was the last time you pulled the tap apart and cleaned it? It should be done every brew, or better still, take the tap out and plug the hole to eliminate that variable.
hashie wrote:You should cube however is best for you. That said it is very likely that your tap is the problem, just ask Pistolpatch, he loves taps :)

When I transfer, I use a stainless racking cane and silicone hose and siphon the hot wort into the cube. Sometimes I wait 10 minutes from boil end sometimes I don't. I just start as soon as the flame goes out.

Using your tap and funnel is not a bad thing, but when was the last time you pulled the tap apart and cleaned it? It should be done every brew, or better still, take the tap out and plug the hole to eliminate that variable.
thanks for your reply, I would have thought the hot wart would have kept the tap sterile??
Last edited by alanem on 28 Jul 2012, 15:28, edited 3 times in total.
I used to spill more than I drink these days!

Post #4 made 13 years ago
by PistolPatch
Hi there alanem,

Couple of things on this, taps and hose...

Silicone Hose

Purchase some silicone hose that is long enough to reach from your kettle tap to the bottom of the cube. It's expensive but is really the only hose that will do the job. Some people say hot side aeration is a myth, others the opposite. Maybe only some palates can taste the effects but why take the risk when you don't need to?

Kettle Tap

About 7 years ago I met a great brewer who lost 1500 litres and about a year of brewing due to his kettle tap. At the time, everyone had various answers but the kettle tap was dismissed for the reason you gave above. Finally, he pulled his kettle tap apart and nearly died from the smell. Problem solved. I'd hate to see anyone going through the same scenario so, as hashie noted above :lol:, I always encourage people to be aware of the dangers of kettle taps (ball-valves). Here's a few notes...

Most taps do not reach sterilisation temperature - On many kettle set-ups, you can put your hand against the tap and not get burned. Itis certainly not anywhere near boiling point.

Ball-valves have a deadspace - Most ball-valves are a ball inside a hollow cube. In other words, there is always liquid in the ball-valve. This means that you can have wort festering in that dead space between brews.

Not all people have problems - Not all people have problems with their ball-valves. Perhaps those people take the time to wash the kettle and then bring water to the boil and repeatedly open and close the ball-valve many times to dilute the concentration of wort in the dead space? Maybe they add sanitiser after doing this? Maybe some people's taps do get hot enough to kill any bacteria? Who knows?

Smell your Tap - Try putting a hose on the end of your tap and putting the other end in your nostril. Open and close the tap several times and take note of what you smell. All okay? Unless you do this and the other things above, the only safe thing to do is pull your tap apart after every brew which is a PITA.

If you do the above nose test and don't note anything bad, pull it completely apart anyway, smell the parts and look for any build-up.

Fingers crossed that this is the cause of your problems. If you do pull your tap apart and notice no strange smells, then other factors must be at play.

:luck:
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 28 Jul 2012, 16:47, edited 3 times in total.
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Post #6 made 13 years ago
by alanem
PistolPatch wrote:Hi there alanem,

Couple of things on this, taps and hose...

Silicone Hose

Purchase some silicone hose that is long enough to reach from your kettle tap to the bottom of the cube. It's expensive but is really the only hose that will do the job. Some people say hot side aeration is a myth, others the opposite. Maybe only some palates can taste the effects but why take the risk when you don't need to?

Kettle Tap

About 7 years ago I met a great brewer who lost 1500 litres and about a year of brewing due to his kettle tap. At the time, everyone had various answers but the kettle tap was dismissed for the reason you gave above. Finally, he pulled his kettle tap apart and nearly died from the smell. Problem solved. I'd hate to see anyone going through the same scenario so, as hashie noted above :lol:, I always encourage people to be aware of the dangers of kettle taps (ball-valves). Here's a few notes...

Most taps do not reach sterilisation temperature - On many kettle set-ups, you can put your hand against the tap and not get burned. Itis certainly not anywhere near boiling point.

Ball-valves have a deadspace - Most ball-valves are a ball inside a hollow cube. In other words, there is always liquid in the ball-valve. This means that you can have wort festering in that dead space between brews.

Not all people have problems - Not all people have problems with their ball-valves. Perhaps those people take the time to wash the kettle and then bring water to the boil and repeatedly open and close the ball-valve many times to dilute the concentration of wort in the dead space? Maybe they add sanitiser after doing this? Maybe some people's taps do get hot enough to kill any bacteria? Who knows?

Smell your Tap - Try putting a hose on the end of your tap and putting the other end in your nostril. Open and close the tap several times and take note of what you smell. All okay? Unless you do this and the other things above, the only safe thing to do is pull your tap apart after every brew which is a PITA.

If you do the above nose test and don't note anything bad, pull it completely apart anyway, smell the parts and look for any build-up.

Fingers crossed that this is the cause of your problems. If you do pull your tap apart and notice no strange smells, then other factors must be at play.

:luck:
PP
Thank you for your very detailed reply it makes a lot of sense and I appreciate. I never suspected the tap, I was mainly thinking aeration or the hot wort into the cube so I will dismantle the tap until I can get some hose etc.
Last edited by alanem on 29 Jul 2012, 06:45, edited 3 times in total.
I used to spill more than I drink these days!

Post #7 made 13 years ago
by PistolPatch
No worries ;). Before you pull it apart, see if you can smell the tap while opening and closing it to see if you can pick anything up. Once you have pulled it apart, please let us know if you find anything. It's always interesting hearing what you find.

:peace:
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Post #8 made 13 years ago
by alanem
PistolPatch wrote:No worries ;). Before you pull it apart, see if you can smell the tap while opening and closing it to see if you can pick anything up. Once you have pulled it apart, please let us know if you find anything. It's always interesting hearing what you find.

:peace:
I pulled it apart and there was no smell/no grime etc whatsoever, it's not the usual 1/2 inch s/s ball Valve, it's much the same but a lot less complex where the only thing that can get infected is probably the ball, plus the tap has only had about 4-5 brews through it and always gets rinsed out after brewing.
I have been doing a bit more backtracking and wonder if it could be the procedure I use for crushing my grains.
I have read where a Blender can be used for crushing grains to a fine crush for a BIAB, After reading up and as I don't own a mill I have been doing it that way (I bought a used coffee grinder on EBAY and all I got done was 2kg of JW trad and it conked out) is there a problem with using the blender this maybe???
Last edited by alanem on 30 Jul 2012, 07:18, edited 3 times in total.
I used to spill more than I drink these days!

Post #9 made 13 years ago
by hashie
Could be???

What type of blender is it? does it chop and spin or does it crush?

Before I got my malt mill, I was using a carona style mill. It took for ever to crush the grains but it was a good work out.
There is no advantage to having a fine crush with BIAB. A standard crush works just as well with less trub at the end of the day.

Is it possible to get your LHBS to crush your grains for you? This might give an insight as to whether this is the problem or not.
"It's beer Jim, but not as we know it."

Post #10 made 13 years ago
by BobBrews
All,

I have a tap on my kettle. I have never had a instance with it causing any problems. No odor or gunk. After no chilling I wash out the kettle and run some water through the tap. The water I use is old StarSan that may be past it's prime or new if I don't have any used.

The cheap taps on my beer fridge is another matter. There I do have gunk and odor. I disassemble those frequently. I am going to replace my cheap taps with the "Perl from Perlick" one at a time so I can afford it (and hide it from my wife). :whistle:

Also crushing grain with a blender is not the best idea. To do it properly you have to gently pulse the blender with just a few grains at a time. It would take forever. The normal grind from your local home brew supply shop (LHBSS) works just fine. You don't get more wort from "Barley Flour"? You just make more of a mess. :idiot:
tap 1 Raspberry wine
tap 2 Bourbon Barrel Porter
tap 3 Czech Pilsner
tap 4 Triple IPA 11% ABV
Pipeline: Mulled Cider 10% ABV

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Post #11 made 13 years ago
by PistolPatch
alanem wrote:I pulled it apart and there was no smell/no grime etc whatsoever
Bugger! I was hoping for an easy fix :lol:.

Three things for the moment...

1. Fine Grind - As hashie said above, it's not a good idea to fine grind although you'll often see it stated on the net that with BIAB you can grind as fine as you like. (I'll add some more below on this.)

2. Different Palates - If someone says, "I always fine grind and never have a problem with astringency," you shouldn't believe that it doesn't cause an astringency problem. Every palate has strengths and weaknesses. For example, I'm highly susceptible to astringency but am pretty sure I can't pick up diacetyl.

3. There could be many causes - For example, have a look at this thread here.

I've always disagreed with a fine grind. Husks (hard stuff) play an important filtering role for a start. They act as a pre-filter. Without a pre-filter, your main filter (the bag), becomes quickly clogged and you end up with a bag full of soggy grain instead of drained grain. So, there is no practical advantage in a fine crush over a normal crush.

Your thread has got me thinking even more though as to why a fine crush is not such a great ideaa....

Husks are hard and full of tannins. If you pulverize the husks to dust, you are pulveriszing the tannins and making them so much easier to extract. The only thing you want from your grains is the 'soft' stuff.

Do your pulverize your egg shells in a mortar and pestle when making scrambled eggs? No, I hope :P.

So, I'm thinking that the fine crush could well cause a tannin problem.

:peace:
PP

P.S. Just saw Bob's post above. You might be one of the lucky ones like Bob and have no kettle tap problems :thumbs:. Plenty of brewers don't have problems. Maybe do the nose test on each brew and then pull it apart again in another 8 brews or so? Just keep checking it until you feel confident that your tap/management system is working.
Last edited by PistolPatch on 30 Jul 2012, 20:23, edited 3 times in total.
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