By the way - I'm making the ESB today. Have just been cleaning up my kitchen in preparation. Good to go in about an hour. I'm not really sure if I've addressed the main issue (low OG), but will keep a close eye on everything and try to fill out everything in BIABacus.
EDIT: The LHBS has given me slightly more grain than asked for in the recipe I concocted. So I'm assuming I should adjust the "For this batch, I'd like to try an OG of" amount till the "what you will use" grain amounts match what the LHBS has given me? (other option being to manipulate the VIF amount till it matches the amounts of grains I have - thus ending up with more VIF).
I also have plans of trying the Schwarz again asap - and either 1. Next weekend pouring fresh wort over the current yeast cake (or whatever method I can get my head around) to re-use the FV/yeast currently filled with that first schwarz batch. Or 2. Harvesting the yeast and doing another schwarz a few weeks down the track.
Post #27 made 12 years ago
You have a few options really, but you are correct;
Keep everything the same and have some leftover grain to use elsewhere.
Raise the OG.
Raide your VIF.
If you do end up choosing to "raise", just make sure you have enough hops (these quantities will change with VIF changes), and that you do not stray away too far from original.
I presume slightly more grain isn't 1Kg?
That reminds me of a story when the natural history scientists (may have been Darwin) were paid to bring back giant turtles for study from the Galapagos, but were found to be so tasty to eat that they never survived the journey home!
Consuming your own experiment; love it
Keep everything the same and have some leftover grain to use elsewhere.
Raise the OG.
Raide your VIF.
If you do end up choosing to "raise", just make sure you have enough hops (these quantities will change with VIF changes), and that you do not stray away too far from original.
I presume slightly more grain isn't 1Kg?
Ha Hakaiserben wrote:I couldn't help myself, and drank my last sample though (it was so very tasty).
That reminds me of a story when the natural history scientists (may have been Darwin) were paid to bring back giant turtles for study from the Galapagos, but were found to be so tasty to eat that they never survived the journey home!
Consuming your own experiment;
love it
Last edited by mally on 04 Oct 2014, 14:00, edited 1 time in total.
G B
I spent lots of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I squandered
I've stopped drinking, but only when I'm asleep
I ONCE gave up women and alcohol - it was the worst 20 minutes of my life
I spent lots of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I squandered
I've stopped drinking, but only when I'm asleep
I ONCE gave up women and alcohol - it was the worst 20 minutes of my life
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Post #28 made 12 years ago
So I just raised the OG (wisely).
This batch has just gone into a no-chill cube. The OG was expected to be 1.052 but I got 1.042.
That's slightly better than last time, but still indicates a flaw somewhere.
On my BIABacus file you can see that the expected pre-boil gravity was expected to be 1.039, but mine was 1.030.
Pretty much everything else is nearly spot on (maybe slightly erring to the side that I'd expect to give higher specific gravity rather than lower).
Not shown on the file is that I weighed my grains. I had more, again only slightly, than the recipe called for (another thing that should err on the side of an increase, not decrease, of the OG outcome).
Other observations not included or not clear in the BIABacus:
1. My thermometer measured boiling water as 97 C (my back-up thermometer measured same boiling water at 95 C).
2. Weight of grains actually used (with recipe amounts in brackets) was Maris Otter 1.813kg (1.768), Dark Crystal 0.120kg (0.098), and Golden Rolled Oats 0.113kg (0.098).
3. My mash temp never went below 65 C and was always between 65-68 but almost always between 66-67 C (all readings according to that thermometer that measured boiling water at 97 C, without any attempt at a correction). Mash was stirred every 15 minutes of a 90 minute mash.
4. Mashout consisted of turning the heat on and waiting for temp to reach 74 C (from 66 C), while constantly stirring and "tea-bagging" the grain bag. After 9 minutes 74 C was reached and the bag was lifted, then squeezed above the kettle as much as I could be bothered with.
This batch has just gone into a no-chill cube. The OG was expected to be 1.052 but I got 1.042.
That's slightly better than last time, but still indicates a flaw somewhere.
On my BIABacus file you can see that the expected pre-boil gravity was expected to be 1.039, but mine was 1.030.
Pretty much everything else is nearly spot on (maybe slightly erring to the side that I'd expect to give higher specific gravity rather than lower).
Not shown on the file is that I weighed my grains. I had more, again only slightly, than the recipe called for (another thing that should err on the side of an increase, not decrease, of the OG outcome).
Other observations not included or not clear in the BIABacus:
1. My thermometer measured boiling water as 97 C (my back-up thermometer measured same boiling water at 95 C).
2. Weight of grains actually used (with recipe amounts in brackets) was Maris Otter 1.813kg (1.768), Dark Crystal 0.120kg (0.098), and Golden Rolled Oats 0.113kg (0.098).
3. My mash temp never went below 65 C and was always between 65-68 but almost always between 66-67 C (all readings according to that thermometer that measured boiling water at 97 C, without any attempt at a correction). Mash was stirred every 15 minutes of a 90 minute mash.
4. Mashout consisted of turning the heat on and waiting for temp to reach 74 C (from 66 C), while constantly stirring and "tea-bagging" the grain bag. After 9 minutes 74 C was reached and the bag was lifted, then squeezed above the kettle as much as I could be bothered with.
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Post #29 made 12 years ago
I'm not really sure where to go from here. (for future batches)
About the only thing I can think of to correct my lower than expected OG readings is to increase my grain bill by deliberately over-stating the OG I'm aiming for in the BIABacus.
Any other/better ideas?
About the only thing I can think of to correct my lower than expected OG readings is to increase my grain bill by deliberately over-stating the OG I'm aiming for in the BIABacus.
Any other/better ideas?
Post #30 made 12 years ago
Looking over your recipe, maybe , there is a miss.
Full points per pound of MO is 82.5% of 36, or 29.70 Points times 3.75 pounds or 111.3 points-pound.
Divide by 2.49 Gallons comes out to be 44.73PPG or 1.04473 S.G.
Maybe, since it is Late here, for me, I have Probably Missed something.
But, your Data does not match BIABACUS since Dark Crystal and Golden Rolled Oats, do not add much, if anything to the Fermentability.
IMHO.
Full points per pound of MO is 82.5% of 36, or 29.70 Points times 3.75 pounds or 111.3 points-pound.
Divide by 2.49 Gallons comes out to be 44.73PPG or 1.04473 S.G.
Maybe, since it is Late here, for me, I have Probably Missed something.
But, your Data does not match BIABACUS since Dark Crystal and Golden Rolled Oats, do not add much, if anything to the Fermentability.
IMHO.
Honest Officer, I swear to Drunk, I am Not God.
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Post #31 made 12 years ago
Hmmm. I just plugged in the % Ratios I wanted in the Grain Bill, the desired VIF, plus the OG I hoped to achieve, and then let BIABacus work out how much of each grain to put in.
Is this not correct?
Is this not correct?
Post #32 made 12 years ago
Have you read through this post Ben?
I have had point #10 in my thoughts.
Could you get grain from elsewhere to check your next brew?
I have had point #10 in my thoughts.
Could you get grain from elsewhere to check your next brew?
Last edited by mally on 07 Oct 2014, 14:37, edited 1 time in total.
G B
I spent lots of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I squandered
I've stopped drinking, but only when I'm asleep
I ONCE gave up women and alcohol - it was the worst 20 minutes of my life
I spent lots of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I squandered
I've stopped drinking, but only when I'm asleep
I ONCE gave up women and alcohol - it was the worst 20 minutes of my life
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- SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From Great Britain
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Post #33 made 12 years ago
Yep - I've read that.
I can try grain from a different place for my next batch (these 2 low batches both came from same place).
I can try grain from a different place for my next batch (these 2 low batches both came from same place).
Post #34 made 12 years ago
Lovely job on filling out the BIABacus Ben 
. All is correct.great 
. 
. One thing though, rolled oats are fermentable and crystal grains aren't as fermentable but they still add to OG if that makes sense but...
mally's focussing on point #10 in the post he linked is excellent advice especially as I believe in England that some home brew shops pre-crush their malts a long time before they sell it. A couple of guys have said they have never had a problem with this but you'd really want to make sure that they store it dry. For example, typical malt has about 4% moisture content. I won't go into the maths but if this rose to say 10%, your efficiency into boil would drop by about 6%. Long-term storage of crushed grain may also lead to the eating of the 'sugars' by weevils or other organisms which again would reduce what you could expect from the malt.
The other one which I think would be worth checking at this stage is the pH of your water. Use the pH strips mentioned here. (Also check locally to make sure that there is nothing really obviously wrong with your water.)
I'm still not happy with your thermometers. What they measure at freezing and boiling point is not relevant. They need to measure the same at mash temp. See if you can buy a third cheap thermometer, heat some water up to just above scalding (leave your finger in until it starts to go red ) and then see how the three thermometers compare.
I'd be very hopeful that doing the three things above will identify the problem.
PP
. All is correct.great . Sorry mate, I'm a bit lost on your maths there Joshjoshua wrote:Maybe, since it is Late here, for me, I have Probably Missed something.
. One thing though, rolled oats are fermentable and crystal grains aren't as fermentable but they still add to OG if that makes sense but...I think this second batch shows that there is a problem somewhere and we certainly need to start searching a little deeper.joshua wrote:... your Data does not match BIABACUS...
mally's focussing on point #10 in the post he linked is excellent advice especially as I believe in England that some home brew shops pre-crush their malts a long time before they sell it. A couple of guys have said they have never had a problem with this but you'd really want to make sure that they store it dry. For example, typical malt has about 4% moisture content. I won't go into the maths but if this rose to say 10%, your efficiency into boil would drop by about 6%. Long-term storage of crushed grain may also lead to the eating of the 'sugars' by weevils or other organisms which again would reduce what you could expect from the malt.
The other one which I think would be worth checking at this stage is the pH of your water. Use the pH strips mentioned here. (Also check locally to make sure that there is nothing really obviously wrong with your water.)
I'm still not happy with your thermometers. What they measure at freezing and boiling point is not relevant. They need to measure the same at mash temp. See if you can buy a third cheap thermometer, heat some water up to just above scalding (leave your finger in until it starts to go red
) and then see how the three thermometers compare.I'd be very hopeful that doing the three things above will identify the problem.
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 07 Oct 2014, 16:51, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #35 made 12 years ago
I'll be doing another attempt at an ESB tomorrow, using exactly same method and same equipment, but in a friend's kitchen instead of my own.
I'll be buying the grain from a different store (where I get to watch them actually crack the grain on the spot).
I'll have a few more thermometers (from friends) as well as my own to test with. Rather than scalding my finger, I'll test first with plain hot tap water (because most domestic units deliver hot water at at least 65C, and Australian Standards states that hot water must be stored above 60C).
I'll also grab some pH test paper.
I'm in Sydney, fairly close to CBD, and have looked at Water reports and all looks fairly normal to me.
I'll report back with any further news/data - good or bad.
EDIT: attached the recipe I'm going with this time. Slightly altered from previous.
I'll be buying the grain from a different store (where I get to watch them actually crack the grain on the spot).
I'll have a few more thermometers (from friends) as well as my own to test with. Rather than scalding my finger, I'll test first with plain hot tap water (because most domestic units deliver hot water at at least 65C, and Australian Standards states that hot water must be stored above 60C).
I'll also grab some pH test paper.
I'm in Sydney, fairly close to CBD, and have looked at Water reports and all looks fairly normal to me.
I'll report back with any further news/data - good or bad.
EDIT: attached the recipe I'm going with this time. Slightly altered from previous.
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Post #36 made 12 years ago
So I tested my main thermometer against 2 others that had been "professionally calibrated" (although not for brewing). The 2 calibrated thermometers were different from eachother 
(so obviously not that well calibrated) by about 3C at mash temp, and about 7C at boiling. Anyway here are the results of tests:
Hot tap water test:
My thermometer = 64
Test thermometer A = 64
Test thermometer B = 67
Boiling water test:
My thermometer = 97
Test thermometer A = 97
Test thermometer B = 104
I mashed at:
My thermometer = 67
Test thermometer A = 67
Test thermometer B = 70.5
So because my thermometer matched Test Thermometer A, I was happy to use that as mash temp. (but perhaps next brew I should correct it on the assumption Test Thermometer B is correct, and see if that fixes some of my efficiency problems).
Brew Day *sigh* more problems ...
So we used grain from a different LHBS. I also changed the grain bill to 95% Maris Otter, 5% Dark crystal.
We brewed at a different location, with a different stove top. (all other equipment was the same).
Our pre-boil gravity was looking like a huge improvement. BIABacus predicted 1.036 and our actual was 1.032, far closer than any previous brew.
However post-boil gravity (predicted as 1.052) seemed to drop right back again, to 1.040.
Some observations-
Just before heating our strike water I noticed that I'd set BIABacus to boil for only 60 mins. So I adjusted that to 90 mins we got the kettle capacity warning, so pulled the boil time back to 75 mins and everything was okay. BIABacus adjusted the required volumes for us for 75 mins and we followed all that accordingly.
Most of the volumes were, once again, pretty spot on as predicted. So to me the low actual GAW (but not as low actual GIB) seems really strange and not exactly the same as the problems I was already having. The only reason I can think of to cause this, this time, is that the boil wasn't as vigourous on this particular stove top.
(so obviously not that well calibrated) by about 3C at mash temp, and about 7C at boiling. Anyway here are the results of tests: Hot tap water test:
My thermometer = 64
Test thermometer A = 64
Test thermometer B = 67
Boiling water test:
My thermometer = 97
Test thermometer A = 97
Test thermometer B = 104
I mashed at:
My thermometer = 67
Test thermometer A = 67
Test thermometer B = 70.5
So because my thermometer matched Test Thermometer A, I was happy to use that as mash temp. (but perhaps next brew I should correct it on the assumption Test Thermometer B is correct, and see if that fixes some of my efficiency problems).
Brew Day *sigh* more problems ...
So we used grain from a different LHBS. I also changed the grain bill to 95% Maris Otter, 5% Dark crystal.
We brewed at a different location, with a different stove top. (all other equipment was the same).
Our pre-boil gravity was looking like a huge improvement. BIABacus predicted 1.036 and our actual was 1.032, far closer than any previous brew.
However post-boil gravity (predicted as 1.052) seemed to drop right back again, to 1.040.
Some observations-
Just before heating our strike water I noticed that I'd set BIABacus to boil for only 60 mins. So I adjusted that to 90 mins we got the kettle capacity warning, so pulled the boil time back to 75 mins and everything was okay. BIABacus adjusted the required volumes for us for 75 mins and we followed all that accordingly.
Most of the volumes were, once again, pretty spot on as predicted. So to me the low actual GAW (but not as low actual GIB) seems really strange and not exactly the same as the problems I was already having. The only reason I can think of to cause this, this time, is that the boil wasn't as vigourous on this particular stove top.
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Last edited by kaiserben on 13 Oct 2014, 08:25, edited 1 time in total.
Post #37 made 12 years ago
Kaiserben, I and some others here, do not believe the 60/75/90 boil times.
I measure the Volume.....an NOW, the Specific Gravity of the Boil, instead of time.
Boil time depends on Humidity and Barometer pressure, which is different ALL the time(unless you live at Sea Level or Perth, Australia)
I measure the Volume.....an NOW, the Specific Gravity of the Boil, instead of time.
Boil time depends on Humidity and Barometer pressure, which is different ALL the time(unless you live at Sea Level or Perth, Australia)
Honest Officer, I swear to Drunk, I am Not God.
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Post #38 made 12 years ago
Ah that's interesting.
So I could/should use BIABacus calculations just as a guide and, as long as I get pre-boil gravity close to predicted, I could then just boil down to the gravity I'm shooting for?
I am at sea level. In Sydney, Australia.
So I could/should use BIABacus calculations just as a guide and, as long as I get pre-boil gravity close to predicted, I could then just boil down to the gravity I'm shooting for?
I am at sea level. In Sydney, Australia.
Post #39 made 12 years ago
That is a good plan, since Barometric pressure changes over time due to weather, and Humidity during the day.
Use the Volume numbers as a base, and Check the Gravity during the Mash until you get to the Pre-Boil Gravity (offset by Temperature), and the End of Boil until you get to the End of Boil Gravity.
Use the Volume numbers as a base, and Check the Gravity during the Mash until you get to the Pre-Boil Gravity (offset by Temperature), and the End of Boil until you get to the End of Boil Gravity.
Honest Officer, I swear to Drunk, I am Not God.
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Where did I go wrong?
Post #40 made 12 years ago
If you are going to target any gravity reading I would be tempted to go for the VAW. Mainly because if you are hitting that with the right volume then who cares what the preboil gravity is?
Do you have a refractometer? Despite some peoples issues with them they will give you a good approximation very quickly without having to adjust for temperature or cool sample. Very handy if you take multiple readings over a brew day!
All things being equal it sounds like some kind of measurement error, on my phone so will check out the file when I'm at a desktop an see if I can pick anything up from that.
Do you have a refractometer? Despite some peoples issues with them they will give you a good approximation very quickly without having to adjust for temperature or cool sample. Very handy if you take multiple readings over a brew day!
All things being equal it sounds like some kind of measurement error, on my phone so will check out the file when I'm at a desktop an see if I can pick anything up from that.
Post #41 made 12 years ago
Just had a look at the BIABacus file and the only thing I can suggest is adjusting your efficiency down in section x to 73%, either that or take an average of a few brews and plug that number in. It means using an extra 300 grams of grain to get closer to what you are after. Over time keep track of what you are getting and adjust accordingly. Once you have your process down you can worry about making other adjustments to water etc to chase efficiency if you want but from where I'm sitting this seems like the easiest approach.
There may be something to do with small batch sizes that I am missing, I normally aim for 40L into cubes, so others may have input there.
There may be something to do with small batch sizes that I am missing, I normally aim for 40L into cubes, so others may have input there.
Post #42 made 12 years ago
Mates, I did save My allowance and Bought a Refactormeter, and Have a Bottle can glued down to a Stick, I add a few drop of Sweet liquor to the Bottle Cap, and wait 4-5 minutes...It Is "Ambient".
I try to measure the S.G. every 15-20 Minutes during the Mash and boil.....I also rinse the bottle Cap between Readings.
Not Exact Science, but, It helps hit Target Numbers and Gravities.
I try to measure the S.G. every 15-20 Minutes during the Mash and boil.....I also rinse the bottle Cap between Readings.
Not Exact Science, but, It helps hit Target Numbers and Gravities.
Honest Officer, I swear to Drunk, I am Not God.
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Where did I go wrong?
Post #43 made 12 years ago
Given the thermal mass of a drop of wort I wouldn't think it would take long for it to hit ambient on the refractometer whatever the starting temperature!
In terms of barometric pressure and humidity, how much difference do you think it makes to actual boil off rate? If you generally brew in the same spot I wouldn't have thought the variations would be that big.
In terms of barometric pressure and humidity, how much difference do you think it makes to actual boil off rate? If you generally brew in the same spot I wouldn't have thought the variations would be that big.
Post #44 made 12 years ago
Contrarian, Taking a Teaspoon full of Mash or Wort may take only 20-30 seconds to drop to Ambient in the Worst case....I have a lot of time, and I am no longer in a hurry!!!
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Post #45 made 12 years ago
I understand the science behind what you are talking about. What I am asking is that under normal circumstances will it make a significant difference to boil off? More to the point this is probably a discussion for the advanced thread rather than beginners.
Kaiserben, don't get caught up in this, as I said above, adjust your efficiency down a bit in the BIABacus and see if that get's you the desired effect and don't get down about it, keep brewing and making small adjustments until you know what you can get for your system and are happy with that. Once you have that sorted you can decide whether you want to start playing with water chemistry, ambient temperature adjustments etc.
Kaiserben, don't get caught up in this, as I said above, adjust your efficiency down a bit in the BIABacus and see if that get's you the desired effect and don't get down about it, keep brewing and making small adjustments until you know what you can get for your system and are happy with that. Once you have that sorted you can decide whether you want to start playing with water chemistry, ambient temperature adjustments etc.
Post #46 made 12 years ago
Contrarian, the Things that "make a significant difference to boil off" is the Ambient Temperature around the Boil(Heat Loss), and second, the ability to boil off the water.
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Post #47 made 12 years ago
kaiserben -I have just re-read the thread from the start, and I noticed you mentioned taking your volume readings by looking at the markers on your fermenter & kettle. Do you use any other method to measure volume, or just these?
Would it be possible to weigh your vessel(s) when empty, then double check afterwards when they are full or at a stage to take a measurement? i.e. your VIF on bathroom scales.
It is possible that you have more liquid than those markers say, and thus your only thing to change for the future would be boil vigour.
Just a thought
Would it be possible to weigh your vessel(s) when empty, then double check afterwards when they are full or at a stage to take a measurement? i.e. your VIF on bathroom scales.
It is possible that you have more liquid than those markers say, and thus your only thing to change for the future would be boil vigour.
Just a thought
G B
I spent lots of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I squandered
I've stopped drinking, but only when I'm asleep
I ONCE gave up women and alcohol - it was the worst 20 minutes of my life
I spent lots of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I squandered
I've stopped drinking, but only when I'm asleep
I ONCE gave up women and alcohol - it was the worst 20 minutes of my life
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Post #48 made 12 years ago
Lots of problems in this thread and when I get time I might edit or delete many posts above as this is an information site and we really should be focussing on finding answers as fast as possible when we are able.
kaiserben has a kettle efficiency problem that needs to be solved rather than adjusted for. The hallmark of the BIABacus and this site is that we can let you know when you actually have a brewing process problem. kaiserben does have a problem.
Telling kaiserben to adjust BIABacus defaults is like telling someone with a leaking fuel tank to just buy more fuel.
The answer to kaiser's problem isn't immediately obvious though so we need a lot more posts like mally's above.
,
Pat
kaiserben has a kettle efficiency problem that needs to be solved rather than adjusted for. The hallmark of the BIABacus and this site is that we can let you know when you actually have a brewing process problem. kaiserben does have a problem.
Telling kaiserben to adjust BIABacus defaults is like telling someone with a leaking fuel tank to just buy more fuel.
The answer to kaiser's problem isn't immediately obvious though so we need a lot more posts like mally's above.
,Pat
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Post #49 made 12 years ago
Guys, I will drop my Posts.
I have said I gave up measuring time....I measure the Volume and/or the Specific gravity many times during the Mash and Boil.
This works MUCH better than Time, Sorry.
I have said I gave up measuring time....I measure the Volume and/or the Specific gravity many times during the Mash and Boil.
This works MUCH better than Time, Sorry.
Honest Officer, I swear to Drunk, I am Not God.
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Re: Re:
Post #50 made 12 years ago
How do you know when to add your hops?joshua wrote:Guys, I will drop my Posts.
I have said I gave up measuring time....I measure the Volume and/or the Specific gravity many times during the Mash and Boil.
This works MUCH better than Time, Sorry.
Last edited by Lumpy5oh on 14 Oct 2014, 21:20, edited 1 time in total.
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