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Post #226 made 14 years ago
by PistolPatch
Hi there Flemming and welcome to the forum :peace:

Firstly, a few questions for you...

1. Your original recipe has a batch size and a boil size both equalling 19.68 L so something is amiss there. I think by batch size they are meaning your volume from the fermenter.

2. I'm not sure what FGDB means.

Your main questions though seem to be about water volumes. The Calculator figures look good to me. You are querying the right things though...

a) Evaporation Rate: I'd rely on The Calculator figures for your first 3 brews at least. 3.78 L/Hr is low compared to the few keggle figures I have.

b) The Kettle Trub and Buffer figure is generous but not overly so. I've done many brews and many of the same recipe and often get great variance in my kettle trub. One day I will work this out :).

As the guys have said, stick with The Calculator defaults for your first few brews. A few gravity points difference on a recipe will not have any major effect on the resulting beer.

Getting to know your figures is great. Simultaneously developing a good disrespect for figures is the perfect way to go. (Just read this table which show the results of 40 experienced home brewers being provided with identical ingredients and being asked to brew an identical recipe.)

:P
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 21 Apr 2011, 17:49, edited 9 times in total.
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Post #227 made 14 years ago
by flemming
PistolPatch wrote:Hi there Flemming and welcome to the forum :peace:
2. I'm not sure what FGDB means.
PP
FGDB is the max % yield for a particular grain. The grain required estimate the calculator provides is pretty good, I just wanted to double check that number using my actual grain bill. Plus it gave me a chance to learn how to work backwards from a particular OG to the amount of grain required to reach it.

Thanks for all the help. I knew what the response would be, I just needed to have it beat into me a bit :)

Robert
Last edited by flemming on 21 Apr 2011, 21:34, edited 9 times in total.

Post #228 made 14 years ago
by joeyrainbow
Hi everybody,

I'm getting ready to do my first AG and first BIAB and I need some advice. I think I've got all my gear together and my grain bill arrived today. The problem is I designed the recipes before I decided to go the BIAB route (using hopville) and now the calculator is telling me I need another 600 g of grain to hit my OG, and that I should be starting out with 36 litres in the kettle to get 21 litres into the corny. I can't order any more grain because Mrs. Rainbow will go mental.

This is the link to the recipe:

http://hopville.com/recipe/602956/home- ... rean-steam

I'm using a straight sided SS pot, 40 litres with a diameter of 34cm, depth 36cm. I will be using a hand held electric immersion heater (3.5 kw) to get to mash temp and to boil, so won't be doing a mash out.

This is the first recipe I have designed and am excited to try it. It's not really based on anything, I just took a look at the (very limited) ingredients available here in Korea, decided on IBUs and OG and went for it. The second grain bill is for a kind of boddies gold clone, which isn't made anymore, and I don't think it ever travelled outside of England, but I'll save those questions for another day.

What should I do about my "korean steam"?

Cheers

Joey

Post #229 made 14 years ago
by hashie
Hi Joey, I say brew it with what you have. 600g of grain is not going to make a huge difference. It will still taste as it should, albeit a couple of gravity points lower than expected. Nothing to worry about really.

Happy brewing and let us know how it goes.
"It's beer Jim, but not as we know it."

Post #230 made 14 years ago
by WhiteRhyno
Hey Joey,
Just a quick note, you might want to be careful with your measurements there, from the dimensions you gave for your pot I calculate it as being 32.5L.
With the calculator stating that you need 36L things might get a bit messy!

Post #231 made 14 years ago
by Lylo
Hi can I get some guidance with this for my brew day.
Red Ale
8 lbs Maris Otter Pale
1 lb Munich30L
.5 lb Crystal 70l
.3lb special B 140l(dingemans)?
.75 oz Northern brewer(GR)?
1 oz fuggles
1 pk windsor dry ale yeast
39.5 cm pot
Thanks,
Lyle
AWOL

Post #232 made 14 years ago
by joeyrainbow
WhiteRhyno wrote:Hey Joey,
Just a quick note, you might want to be careful with your measurements there, from the dimensions you gave for your pot I calculate it as being 32.5L.
With the calculator stating that you need 36L things might get a bit messy!
Yep, I'm just waiting for it to heat up to strike temp now and I got 33 litres in but it was full to the brim, so I bailed some out. I will be mashing in 29 litres, still using 5.5 kg of grain and keeping all ten little fingers, and all ten little toes, firmly crossed.
Last edited by joeyrainbow on 25 Apr 2011, 16:31, edited 9 times in total.

Post #233 made 14 years ago
by WhiteRhyno
joeyrainbow wrote: Yep, I'm just waiting for it to heat up to strike temp now and I got 33 litres in but it was full to the brim, so I bailed some out. I will be mashing in 29 litres, still using 5.5 kg of grain and keeping all ten little fingers, and all ten little toes, firmly crossed.
lol, I did my first BIAB the other week and made that exact mistake, filled it right up and forgot about the space the lid takes up in the pot, had to laugh though, live and learn!
:luck:
Last edited by WhiteRhyno on 25 Apr 2011, 17:40, edited 9 times in total.

Post #234 made 14 years ago
by PistolPatch
flemming: Thanks for the clarification on FGDB :peace: .

Joey: Have a read of this post when converting recipes from Hopville. You'll see from that that their batch size measn their edn of boil volume - it is not the brewlength. Hope you're having fun today and :luck:
Lylo wrote:Hi can I get some guidance with this for my brew day.
Red Ale
8 lbs Maris Otter Pale
1 lb Munich30L
.5 lb Crystal 70l
.3lb special B 140l(dingemans)?
.75 oz Northern brewer(GR)?
1 oz fuggles
1 pk windsor dry ale yeast
39.5 cm pot
Thanks,
Lyle
Hi there Lyle. Might need some more information on what questions you have. For example, how much beer would you like to brew? How much water will your kettle hold etc?

Let us know and we'll help you out.
:peace:
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 25 Apr 2011, 19:00, edited 9 times in total.
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Post #235 made 14 years ago
by Lylo
Thanks PP therein lies my problem I have been trying to use the calculator but am getting confused.I would LIKE to do a 23 l kit but it looks like it would be a little lite on the osg,My pot is 15.625" x 13.75", by my calcs that comes to 42l.I tested my pot and burner yesterday and with just water and no grain 39l(what I came up with for a 20l batch) I was close to the top and concerned about stirring.I am just a little nervous about my first tome just as I was about 40yrs ago! I am thinking ,why not just mash int a comfortable volume,add water at the boil and add more water or keep on boiling till I get to my 23l mark?
Thanks for any help,
Lyle
AWOL

Post #237 made 14 years ago
by joeyrainbow
So I brewed today and thought I'd post a report and ask for some advice.

I ended up mashing in 29 l for 80 minutes at 68C. It had dropped to 63C after the 80 mins but I didn't bother to wrap the kettle. I will do next time, but since I'm not really aiming for a "style" I wasn't worried this time.

The grain bill was:
4.5 kg Pilsner malt
0.5 kg CaraHell
0.5 kg Carapils
0.5 kg Wheat malt

I did an iodine test which could not have been more negative- it should stay brown, right- and removed the bag. I reckon I had about 22 l of wort left. Boiled, chilled etc. I got 19l into the fermenter, pitched the yeast and closed that puppy up good. I took a gravity reading and it was rather alarming- 1032 at 21C.

So my question is- what happened? It was fully converted, 5.5 kg of grain and the abv will be between 2.9 and 3.2% I've eaten bread with more alcohol. Did I get gyped by the grain merchant?

Aside from that the actual brewing process was remarkably smooth, the biggest worry being Mrs. Rainbow complaining that the house smells like Uncle Bill's hayloft.

Post #238 made 14 years ago
by housecat
joeyrainbow wrote:SNIP...
the biggest worry being Mrs. Rainbow complaining that the house smells like Uncle Bill's hayloft.
:clap: :clap: Comedy gold!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: My missus is the same!

When exactly did you take the reading? And did you take pre-boil readings?
Also, did you discard the first bit of wort that came out of the tap? You may have had some water or sanitiser in the sample you took thus making your reading incorrect.

HC
Last edited by housecat on 26 Apr 2011, 04:52, edited 9 times in total.
Part of the NoAd brewers

My mum says I'm cool.

Post #239 made 14 years ago
by joeyrainbow
housecat wrote: When exactly did you take the reading? And did you take pre-boil readings?
Also, did you discard the first bit of wort that came out of the tap? You may have had some water or sanitiser in the sample you took thus making your reading incorrect.

HC
Good call.
I took a reading immediately after pitching, and there probably was some water in the spigot. I just took another reading and it's 1030. Fermentation has kicked off nicely.

I didn't take pre-boil readings, although I should have done, and I realise that. Now.

I'm thinking the pilsner malt wasn't up to snuff, and didn't have enough diastatic power to convert all the other stuff.
Last edited by joeyrainbow on 26 Apr 2011, 11:22, edited 9 times in total.

Post #240 made 14 years ago
by PistolPatch
Lylo wrote:Thanks PP therein lies my problem I have been trying to use the calculator but am getting confused.I would LIKE to do a 23 l kit but it looks like it would be a little lite on the osg,My pot is 15 5/8dia x 13.75h, by my calcs that comes to 42l.I tested my pot and burner yesterday and with just water and no grain 39l(what I came up with for a 20l batch) I was close to the top and concerned about stirring.I am just a little nervous about my first tome just as I was about 40yrs ago! I am thinking ,why not just mash int a comfortable volume,add water at the boil and add more water or keep on boiling till I get to my 23l mark?
Thanks for any help,
Lyle
The big problem you are having is with terminology. There are way too many posts in this thread for anyone to read in full but if you did, you would find a lot of posts (usually by me :)) talking about how many commonly used terms are not very well defined. "Efficiency," and "batch size," are two big culprits.

For example, in your post above, I can't tell what you mean by a 23 L kit. It could mean 23 L at end of boil, into fermenter or into the bottle/keg. The same goes for when you say, "20 L batch." What we all need to do is use the same terminology as is used in The Calculator. This way there is no possibility of confusion.

Does the above help you out?

Your idea of adding water when you are able to during the boil etc is no problem at all.
Lylo wrote:Another Qustion BB.Is there any kind of rule of thumb or average where maybe Xkgs of grain for a 23L batch would give X%alcohol?
Lyle
As you now know :P , this question can't be answered because there is no clear definiton of batch. But, here is a rule of thumb that I use ;) ...

With BIAB, 5 kgs of grain should give you about 23 L into the fermenter of 5% ABV beer.
Last edited by PistolPatch on 26 Apr 2011, 20:32, edited 9 times in total.
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Post #241 made 14 years ago
by PistolPatch
joeyrainbow wrote:So I brewed today and thought I'd post a report and ask for some advice.

I ended up mashing in 29 l for 80 minutes at 68C. It had dropped to 63C after the 80 mins but I didn't bother to wrap the kettle. I will do next time, but since I'm not really aiming for a "style" I wasn't worried this time.

The grain bill was:
4.5 kg Pilsner malt
0.5 kg CaraHell
0.5 kg Carapils
0.5 kg Wheat malt

I did an iodine test which could not have been more negative- it should stay brown, right- and removed the bag. I reckon I had about 22 l of wort left. Boiled, chilled etc. I got 19l into the fermenter, pitched the yeast and closed that puppy up good. I took a gravity reading and it was rather alarming- 1032 at 21C.

So my question is- what happened? It was fully converted, 5.5 kg of grain and the abv will be between 2.9 and 3.2% I've eaten bread with more alcohol. Did I get gyped by the grain merchant?

Aside from that the actual brewing process was remarkably smooth, the biggest worry being Mrs. Rainbow complaining that the house smells like Uncle Bill's hayloft.
LOL!

Your original gravity should be closer to 1.050 than 1.030 so something has gone wrong here. The great thing about BIAB is that it is very hard to bugger up so if you did actually start with 5.5 kgs of grain you will almost certainly get a beer of around 5% ABV.

What you need to do is another brew. If your hydrometer reads the same again then you need to...

1.) Buy another hydrometer or check yours in a 1.050 sugar solution.
2.) Buy another thermometer or check yours against another at mash temperatures. (This could well be your problem. If your thermometer is 5 degrees out at mash temps then you may have actually been mashing at 73 C :o )
3.) Make sure your bag is not restricting your grain at all.
4.) Check your grain weights.
5.) Check the pH of your mash.

As you have already recognised, it is important to take more readings when starting out as these act as a double-check. A single reading in small-scale brewing is fairly meaningless.

All should taste great though so :salute:
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 26 Apr 2011, 20:44, edited 9 times in total.
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Post #242 made 14 years ago
by Lylo
Thanks PistolPatch I am sure I will have it all under control by the time may grain arrives.See my post on "The Old Hands forum".
I think I might just heat up about 38l of water and mash the grain billI showed you for about an hour,hoist the bag and raise heat to 170F,lower the bag into the pot for 10 min.then remove,and drain while bringing the pot up to a boil,
pour in my drainings,boil for an hour while tossing the hops (2oz total) into a bag in even amounts at start middle and last 5.
Chill and rack to primary.
Does this sound reasonable or should I get more complicated.
P.S. I think I will bump the grain bill a bit.
The grain bill was:
4.5 kg Pilsner malt
0.5 kg CaraHell
0.5 kg Carapils
0.5 kg Wheat malt
AWOL

Post #243 made 14 years ago
by PistolPatch
Lylo wrote:Does this sound reasonable or should I get more complicated?
I think we are getting close Lyle but the only thing you haven't told us yet is how much you want to brew. Until we know this, we are in the dark so...

Let us know either your desired "brewlength," your desired, "Volume into Fermenter," or your desired, "End of Boil Volume," and we will be okay to go :P
Last edited by PistolPatch on 26 Apr 2011, 22:22, edited 9 times in total.
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Post #245 made 14 years ago
by joeyrainbow
PistolPatch wrote:
LOL!

Your original gravity should be closer to 1.050 than 1.030 so something has gone wrong here. The great thing about BIAB is that it is very hard to bugger up so if you did actually start with 5.5 kgs of grain you will almost certainly get a beer of around 5% ABV.

What you need to do is another brew. If your hydrometer reads the same again then you need to...

1.) Buy another hydrometer or check yours in a 1.050 sugar solution.
2.) Buy another thermometer or check yours against another at mash temperatures. (This could well be your problem. If your thermometer is 5 degrees out at mash temps then you may have actually been mashing at 73 C :o )
3.) Make sure your bag is not restricting your grain at all.
4.) Check your grain weights.
5.) Check the pH of your mash.

As you have already recognised, it is important to take more readings when starting out as these act as a double-check. A single reading in small-scale brewing is fairly meaningless.

All should taste great though so :salute:
PP
Yeah, something did go wrong. My next brew day will be on Sunday, the recipe is here:

http://hopville.com/recipe/612937/home-" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... he-boddies

Addressing your advice in order:
1. The hydrometer has proven pretty accurate with kits in the past, although it's only a cheap one. Is it possible for them to "go off"? I plan to upgrade to a triple scale one in the future but Mrs. Rainbow won't let me yet. I might have to "accidentally" bugger up the one I've got, like I did with the awful, cheap, bright red basketball boots my Granny got me from Bury Market when I was 12- I wanted some Reebok Pump.

2. The thermometer could well be the problem. I have been using what I can only describe as a "school science lab" thermometer. Can I find an instant read in Korea? No. Another problem could be that I am using a hand held immersion heater, which creates hot spots, although I was careful to try and avoid this.

3. I don't think the bag restricted the grains, although it is quite big, and pillow case style so it did get some folds in the corners. Next time I will wrap the kettle with a blanket and stir more frequently.

4. Grain weight. HMMM. The grain guy sent the grain for my two recipes all in separate, pre-weighed bags and I didn't bother to check. I suppose he could have stiffed me out of 100g here and there, but you still wouldn't expect such a low OG even with 5.1 kg of grain would you?

5. ph- again I didn't check. The water is quite hard, in that we eventually get calcium build up in the kettle. Other people who do AG here in Korea have never had a problem with ph, but they all mash the "proper" way, and have never done BIAB.

So what do you think? Temperature and stirring and hope for the best?

Apologies for the long post.

Joey
Last edited by joeyrainbow on 27 Apr 2011, 00:38, edited 9 times in total.

Post #246 made 14 years ago
by PistolPatch
Hi there Lyle,

What I have done is set The Calculator up to suit your equipment and volumes. Have a play around with it and see how you go. Looks like you are using the same recipe as Joey so use the same hop schedule as in the original recipe. (I have put this into The Calculator for you but you will need to change the AA% to match your hops.)

For your first brews, follow the instructions in The Master Guide. In other words, do a 90 minute mash and a 90 minute boil.

Here you go...
The Calculator - Lylo.xls
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Last edited by PistolPatch on 27 Apr 2011, 21:35, edited 9 times in total.
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Post #247 made 14 years ago
by PistolPatch
Hi there Joey,

1. If your hydro has been okay in the past, it should still be fine.

2. Nothing wrong with glass thermometers but you really are going to have to check it at 65 C with some other thermometers. Always stir the mash before taking your temp readings.

3. Bag sounds okay :)

4. No, there would have to be a few kilos missing.

5. pH can affect efficiency a fair bit though I can't remember by how much.

I think check the thermometer and get some pH strips and say citric acid before your next brew so you can get the mash pH down to about 5.2.

Maybe do a rough weigh of your grain bill too if possible just to make sure it isn't a few kilos out.

Will look forward to hearing how the next one goes. :luck:
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Post #248 made 14 years ago
by Lylo
Thanks alot Pistolpatch,hopefully my grain etc.arrives soon so I can have a go at this,I will play with your numbers and try to get alittle more comfortable with the Calculator.Hopefully I will become less needy as time goes by.

Some time later in Canada:
Hey PP (is it alright to call you that).Your full moniker doesn't fit my keybd skills that well.
I need clarity on water.The Calculator has a (Start of boil volume) cell and a (water reqd cell)?I assume I will be adding water.When?
If I decide to bump up my grain wts.should I keep pecentages the same? Keep in mind I probably won't be entering any national competions with this,I just want to make the best beer I have ever made. Even one of the best ever would be nice.
Last edited by Lylo on 28 Apr 2011, 07:55, edited 9 times in total.
AWOL

Post #249 made 14 years ago
by Squared
Lylo wrote:Thanks alot Pistolpatch,hopefully my grain etc.arrives soon so I can have a go at this,I will play with your numbers and try to get alittle more comfortable with the Calculator.Hopefully I will become less needy as time goes by.

Some time later in Canada:
Hey PP (is it alright to call you that).Your full moniker doesn't fit my keybd skills that well.
I need clarity on water.The Calculator has a (Start of boil volume) cell and a (water reqd cell)?I assume I will be adding water.When?
If I decide to bump up my grain wts.should I keep pecentages the same? Keep in mind I probably won't be entering any national competions with this,I just want to make the best beer I have ever made. Even one of the best ever would be nice.
Hey,
Remember that your grist will absorb water so your water required will determine how much to have at the very start. So then it makes sense that your boil volume at the start will be slightly less than your water required.
Last edited by Squared on 28 Apr 2011, 11:19, edited 9 times in total.

Post #250 made 14 years ago
by Lylo
So,please bear with me it's been a long winter.
I will heat 38.12liters water to mash temp.
Mash for 80 min
Mash out for 10
Hopefully have about 34.79 liters of water to start my boil
Boil for 90 min while tossing in said hops.
Am I gettin it mate?
AWOL
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