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Post #176 made 15 years ago
by PistolPatch
You drive a hard bargain mike :lol:. Seriously though it looks as though your reasoning for wanting to do this particular brew is good so we better tackle it. There is also no problem not doing a 'pure' BIAB. Lots of people here Mini or Maxi-BIAB and these are very good techniques that are excellent for many brewer's circumstances.

So let's take another look...

Original Gravity (of original recipe)

Unfortunately this is missing from the original recipe and this is a very important figure. Looking at the link you provided above, I see that this beer is 7.2% ABV :o. This means we are going to have bigger problems than we thought :interesting:.

I know nothing about rye beers or high gravity beers but I think you will need an original gravity of 1.074 to get 7.4% ABV.

Grain Bill (4772 grams) (of original recipe)

3300 g US 2-Row Malt (2040 g plus 1260 g to replace the original LDME)
680 g US Rye
340 g German CaraMunich II (Not sure on the II bit?)
113 g US Carapils
113 g US Caramel (120 Lovibond)
113 g Belgian Aromatic Malt
113 g Rice Hulls

Hop Bill (of original recipe)

This is missing from the original recipe. We need one of these :).

Possible Batch Sizes Using Original Grain Bill

We need to start with the assumption that you have a big enough kettle before we work further. Using the original grain bill, with an 81% efficiency into the boiler*, you should be able to achieve...

16.0 litres at the end of the boil
13.7 litres into the fermenter
12.7 litres into your keg or bottles
Download this...
The Calculator - Mike 1.xls
and look at the first sheet (The 'Volumes etc.' sheet - Cells B5 to B21) and you'll see where these figures come from. Ignore the other sheets.

If you want 19 L into the primary then you would have to change your Brew Length (Cell B5) to 17.6 L and you'll see that B7 changes to 19.01 and your Grain Bill Required (B18) jumps to 6599 grams.

*The 81% efficiency figure I have used above is unrealistic with this grain bill. We will have to lower it to say 73% (I'm guessing here) so, in reality, to get your 19 L into a fermenter, we would need more like 7,322 grams. (Change Cell B10 and you'll see this for yourself.)

The simplest way of achieving the volume you desire would be to have two bags and use both turkey fryers. This would make it all very easy. You would simply do two pure BIAB's and add them together. No problem!

Today's Summary :P

I think the above is enough to think on for today. Before we go further, we need...

1. Confirmation on the ABV of 7.2%.
2. The hop bill.
3. We need to know if you can make two bags. If yes, we'll be close to a final solution. If no, we are going to need a lot more writing :lol: and I'll have to call in reinforcements from the Maxi-BIAB world.

It's all good fun! Mike, I hope rye beer doesn't taste anything like rye bread :angry:.

;),
PP
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Last edited by PistolPatch on 01 Mar 2011, 18:13, edited 9 times in total.
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Post #177 made 15 years ago
by de5m0mike
I estimated an efficiency of 70% in my brew software, Beer Alchemy, and got an OG is 1.060

I don't have my recipe in front of me so I'll have to get back to you on the hop schedule and ABV. I do believe though that the IBU's were about 40 (using tinseth). And I think the ABV was about 6% but I'll also have to get back to you.

I am shooting for the American Amber Ale (10B) category as referenced here.
http://www.bjcp.org/2008styles/style10.php

I only have one bag but I believe I have enough material left over to whip up another one if needed.

Post #178 made 15 years ago
by de5m0mike
Ok here is the hop schedule. Turns out it's more like 46 IBU

First Wort Hopped
US Centennial 0.25 oz
US Amarillo 0.25 oz
US Simcoe 0.25 oz

15 Min From End
US Amarillo 0.25 oz
US Simcoe 0.25 oz
US Centennial 0.25 oz

Dry-Hopped
US Amarillo 0.25 oz
US Simcoe 0.25 oz
US Centennial 0.25 oz

Also, I should note, I'm not appose to scaling this recipe back to a smaller batch size if that will make it work in on pot.

Post #179 made 15 years ago
by de5m0mike
PistolPatch wrote:3. Because you can't do a pure BIAB, I think that studying the Maxi-BIAB guide and also the Mini-BIAB Guide is a must. It will take some time to read them properly and absorb them.
I finally had a chance to read through the Maxi-BIAB and Mini-BIAB links and found them quite helpful. I know feel the best way for me to go forward is with the Maxi-BIAB method. I figure I can easily fit my 8 lbs (~3.6 kg) of grain in my 7.5 gallon (~28 ltr) pot with 4 gallons (~15 ltr.) of water. My plan is to heat a second pot of water (about 2 gallons) to use as sparge water. This should leave me with about 6 gallons in my pot before the boil which is what I am use to having with my extract brews. I will then continue as usual. Anyone see any flaws in my thinking or do I sound like I am good to go?
Last edited by de5m0mike on 02 Mar 2011, 09:57, edited 9 times in total.

Post #180 made 15 years ago
by de5m0mike
PistolPatch wrote: Download this...
The Calculator - Mike 1.xls
and look at the first sheet (The 'Volumes etc.' sheet - Cells B5 to B21) and you'll see where these figures come from. Ignore the other sheets.

If you want 19 L into the primary then you would have to change your Brew Length (Cell B5) to 17.6 L and you'll see that B7 changes to 19.01 and your Grain Bill Required (B18) jumps to 6599 grams.

*The 81% efficiency figure I have used above is unrealistic with this grain bill. We will have to lower it to say 73% (I'm guessing here) so, in reality, to get your 19 L into a fermenter, we would need more like 7,322 grams. (Change Cell B10 and you'll see this for yourself.)
I really appreciate your help with this but I have to admit. Spread sheets and .xml documents scare me. I'm an artist for crying out loud. I can't make much sense of it. Ok, I can look at it and make sense of what it is saying but as for all the numbers and how to use them to do what I need, let alone understand the results... I'm a bit over my head. I suppose I might be better off learning from experience. I'm going to give this a go this weekend and see what happens. Hopefully I will have a friend and very experienced all grain brewer at my side to help me along the way.
Last edited by de5m0mike on 02 Mar 2011, 10:04, edited 9 times in total.

Post #181 made 15 years ago
by stux
I've calculated a Maxi-BIAB recipe with OG 1.060 in your turkey fryer to transfer 5 Gallons.

The Maxi-BIAB calculator is calling for a grain bill of 5.25KG, assuming 75% efficiency.

That's a L:G ratio 4.11, which is more than fine. Perfect some 3V brewers would say :)

Assuming 2L kettle trub, that's 19L transferred

You need to use Pre-boil and boil additions but no post-boil additions

Only 1.3L of pre-boil addition, and 6.3L boil addition

I'll upload the spreadsheet, you can fiddle with it, but basically this is just a standard maxi-biab, i would think you might not even need to sparge the bag.

I would do the maxi-biab in your first turkey fryer, and just use your other one to have 2-3 gallons of boiling water on hand for top ups.

The big limiting factor is the star of boil limit, i've set this to 10cm to make it easier to control boil overs, which means you can't start with as much liquor at the start of boil, which means you need to add more during the boil, to end up with your final boil volume.

no need for LDME additions, if you use the maxi-biab calculator and enter your attained gravity at start of boil, it will recalculate the target end of boil to either have more or less wort
Maxi-BIAB Calculator Mar01 -de5mo.xlsx
Appologies for all the metric units ;)
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Last edited by stux on 02 Mar 2011, 10:14, edited 9 times in total.
Fermenting: -
Cubed: -
Stirplate: -
On Tap: NS Summer Ale III (WY1272), Landlord III (WY1469), Fighter's 70/- II (WY1272), Roast Porter (WY1028), Cider, Soda
Next: Munich Helles III

5/7/12

Post #183 made 15 years ago
by big dave
Howdy again crew

Flushed with the success of the inaugural BIAB attempt, I have been playing about with recipes for number two.... It will be a Little Creatures sort of APA. Found a recipe on the AHB database credited to Argon, which I have tamed down a little, and played with on the Calculator. This is what I have come up with.

LCPA draft
Batch Size: 21.7 L into fermenter
Boil Size: 33.4 L
Estimated OG: 1.050
Estimated IBU: 33 IBU
Estimated Efficiency: 75%
Mash: 90 Minutes at 65 deg, no mash-out
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

4.0 kg Pale Malt - 72.7 %
1.0 kg Munich I - 18.2 %
0.3 kg Wheat Malt - 5.5 %
0.20 kg Caramalt - 3.6 %
12 g Galaxy [13.4%] (60 min) - 15.5 IBU
10 g Chinook [11.4 %] (20 min) – 6.7 IBU
20 g Cascade [5.9 %] (20 min) – 6.9 IBU
15 g Chinook [11.4 %] (5 min) – 3.3 IBU
20 g Cascade [5.9 %] (5 min) – 2.3 IBU
15 g Chinook [11.4 %] (dry hop to cube) – 0 IBU
20 g Cascade flowers [7.6 %] (dry hop to cube) – 0 IBU
Ferment with US-05 at 20 deg

Does it look reasonably sound?
Drinking: last K&B & extract brews, BIAB #1- Golden Ale, #2- Pale Ale, #3- Galaxy Single-hop Ale
In the Pipeline: ESB, Landlord

Post #184 made 15 years ago
by PistolPatch
de5m0mike: LOL on the artist bit. Ran out of time last night but will see if we can come up with some simple instructions later today.

big dave: I'm not much of a recipe expert Dave but to me, that does look sound although I would have thought there would be slightly more bittering hops?
Last edited by PistolPatch on 03 Mar 2011, 07:52, edited 9 times in total.
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Post #185 made 15 years ago
by PistolPatch
[Stux: I think your spreadsheet above was posted ten minutes after Mike was writing the below so I am going to attack this from a different angle. Nice work though :P]
de5m0mike wrote:I really appreciate your help with this but I have to admit. Spread sheets and .xml documents scare me. I'm an artist for crying out loud...
LOL Mike. Next time, being an artist will be no excuse though okay :lol:. Good to see you did the reading. Having it all sink in takes some time especially with Mini and Maxi-BIABs as they require more steps. Good on you for following up the other stuff as well.

You are super-keen to get this first brew done this weekend so I am going to tell you what to do. I'm not going to offer any possibilities etc. I am also not going to offer any explanations as it will take too long. I'm also going to use your original grain bill and...

...

:argh: Okay, I think I am going to have to give up here. Have spent over an hour trying to work out how to get you under way Mike but I only have two screens and I seriously need about ten to be able to see just the history of this question and 'unconfuse' myself. It would take me another few hours to compare stux's figures with mine, jot down figures, convert US to metric, guess an efficiency figure, guess an OG etc etc. This is seriously hard, time-consuming work.

I am disappointed I can't help you as you have followed the instructions in the first two posts of this thread. (I think they are missing one very important line!)

What I think you need to do is enlist the help of your experienced all-grain brewer friend. Working out the above with a telephone call is seriously, super-easy. Doing it on the net is seriously, super-hard as you need to play a game of twenty questions and this game is quite impossible in this case, given the time delay and the required urgency of a result. There are so many ways you can tackle this recipe but your experienced friend should be able to give you a plan of attack in about twenty minutes of conversation.

Hopefully he will come and help you on the day. Give him some beer!

Your enthusiasm is great though and once you get your 'new palate' together I am totally confident you will brew great beer. Please post back in this thread to let us know what you are going to do and then, after your brew day, start a whole new thread and tell us how it went. Make sure it has some comedy!

If you can't get any more help before brew day, I think the plan you wrote here will work out fine no matter what grain bill you choose. Just make sure you take measurements when you can. These will help you (and us) down the track.

:luck: Mike and be proud of the fact that you gave us too great a challenge. Make sure you get a gold medal so I and others can all look back at the above and have a good self-deprecating laugh!

:peace:
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 03 Mar 2011, 20:50, edited 9 times in total.
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Post #186 made 15 years ago
by de5m0mike
Picked up all the ingredients last night. As well as a few more things like a false bottom for my rig. I'm going for it, no matter what the outcome.

Seriously though, don't feel like you weren't able to help. I've learned quite a bit here over the last week or so.

Post #187 made 15 years ago
by stux
Fill up your kettle to the dough in level in my spreadsheet
Mash, top up as much as you dare

Pull the bag, then fill your kettle to your standard preboil amount

Boil as per usual

Etc
Fermenting: -
Cubed: -
Stirplate: -
On Tap: NS Summer Ale III (WY1272), Landlord III (WY1469), Fighter's 70/- II (WY1272), Roast Porter (WY1028), Cider, Soda
Next: Munich Helles III

5/7/12

Post #188 made 15 years ago
by PistolPatch
Good on you mike :thumbs:

[Stux, tell him figures :lol:. Poor Mike is lost on The Calculator and your spreadsheet is a hundred times longer! I think we need a BIAB conference! I can see one coming up in Sydney within 4 weeks so stay tuned! (I'll PM you.)]
Last edited by PistolPatch on 03 Mar 2011, 23:16, edited 9 times in total.
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Post #189 made 15 years ago
by stux
Fill up kettle to 5.5 gallons, add grain, top up to 1/2" from top
Mash, pull bag, squeeze, drain etc
If necessary top up your kettle to 6 gallons
Boil as per usual, if nessary top up with boiling water
Fermenting: -
Cubed: -
Stirplate: -
On Tap: NS Summer Ale III (WY1272), Landlord III (WY1469), Fighter's 70/- II (WY1272), Roast Porter (WY1028), Cider, Soda
Next: Munich Helles III

5/7/12

Post #190 made 15 years ago
by de5m0mike
stux wrote:Fill up kettle to 5.5 gallons, add grain, top up to 1/2" from top
Mash, pull bag, squeeze, drain etc
If necessary top up your kettle to 6 gallons
Boil as per usual, if nessary top up with boiling water
Now that sounds like a plan!

I'll be taking careful notes as well during the brew process and will let you all know how it goes.
Last edited by de5m0mike on 04 Mar 2011, 00:15, edited 9 times in total.

Post #191 made 15 years ago
by the_mc
Yeasty suggested I post my recipe here in regards to my original question on this thread: http://www.biabrewer.info/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=671

Here is the recipe:

% LB OZ MALT
78% 10 5 American Two-row Pale
10% 1 5 Caramel/Crystal Malt
8% 1 0 Carafa II 32
5% 0 10 Special Roast 33
13 4

Original Gravity
1.074
(1.066 to 1.078)
Final Gravity
1.018
(1.016 to 1.019)
Color
34° SRM / 66° EBC
(Black)
Mash Efficiency



USE TIME OZ VARIETY FORM AA
boil 75 mins 0.75 Northern Brewer pellet 8.5
boil 75 mins 0.75 Warrior pellet 15.2
boil 5 mins 0.75 Warrior pellet 15.2
boil 1 min 0.25 Cascade pellet 6.0
dry hop 7 days 0.25 Warrior pellet 15.0
dry hop 7 days 0.75 Cascade pellet 6.0

Post #192 made 15 years ago
by PistolPatch
Hi there mc and welcome aboard :peace:

That's great info you have supplied above so you have made things very easy for us. The only thing missing in your post above is what 'Brewlength' you want but if we look at the post you linked above, I can see that you have written, "I am brewing a 23 ltr batch of BlackIPA," so all is good.

The term, "batch," is very badly defined. Some brewers mean, 'batch,' as being what volume they get into their kegs/bottles, some as being what they get into their fermenter and some others as being what they get into their kettle :argh:. This causes a lot of confusion and means we have to do some detective work.

I'm going to load your figures into The Calculator (including the 6,124 grams of grain you mentioned in your other thread) now and see if I can work out what 'batch' means when it comes to your recipe...

Uh oh! We have a problem and I should have spotted it sooner.

6,124 grams of grain for a 23 litre size 'batch' (even if the original recipe means post-boil volume) is not going to work. There is not enough grain.

So, mc, it is time for some more detective work. Can you link or copy where you got the recipe from? If the recipe is from a friend, can you contact them and try and get more information on their figures? If not, this is fine, but we will have to make some substantial changes to your hop and grain bills. (Or, if you designed this recipe yourself, there is probably something simple you might have missed.)

I'm also pretty hopeless on style knowledge but have never heard of a black IPA (sounds fun though!) so some more information on what you want the resulting beer to taste like would be excellent.

Recipe conversion - it's never easy mc :lol:

Look forward to the results of your detective work :salute:
Last edited by PistolPatch on 09 Mar 2011, 21:54, edited 9 times in total.
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Post #193 made 15 years ago
by the_mc
PistolPatch wrote:Hi there mc and welcome aboard :peace:

That's great info you have supplied above so you have made things very easy for us. The only thing missing in your post above is what 'Brewlength' you want but if we look at the post you linked above, I can see that you have written, "I am brewing a 23 ltr batch of BlackIPA," so all is good.

The term, "batch," is very badly defined. Some brewers mean, 'batch,' as being what volume they get into their kegs/bottles, some as being what they get into their fermenter and some others as being what they get into their kettle :argh:. This causes a lot of confusion and means we have to do some detective work.

I'm going to load your figures into The Calculator (including the 6,124 grams of grain you mentioned in your other thread) now and see if I can work out what 'batch' means when it comes to your recipe...

Uh oh! We have a problem and I should have spotted it sooner.

6,124 grams of grain for a 23 litre size 'batch' (even if the original recipe means post-boil volume) is not going to work. There is not enough grain.

So, mc, it is time for some more detective work. Can you link or copy where you got the recipe from? If the recipe is from a friend, can you contact them and try and get more information on their figures? If not, this is fine, but we will have to make some substantial changes to your hop and grain bills. (Or, if you designed this recipe yourself, there is probably something simple you might have missed.)

I'm also pretty hopeless on style knowledge but have never heard of a black IPA (sounds fun though!) so some more information on what you want the resulting beer to taste like would be excellent.

Recipe conversion - it's never easy mc :lol:

Look forward to the results of your detective work :salute:
Hi PistolPatch,

Thanks for the help. When I said 23 ltr batch I meant what would go in the fermentor. When you say brew length are you talking about the boil? That would be 75 minutes. The recipe is from a clone of an american Cascadian IPA or Black IPA....there is some controversy on what to call the style! :shock:

I think the issues with the grain bill are likely due to the recipe being for a non-BIAB setup. I currently don't have much more grain so my batch size may have to be reduced (New to this BIAB thing :) )

If I am reading the calculator correctly I would need to scale the grain bill for 20 ltr final volume in the bottle to this:

Scaled Recipe
Percent Weight (Pounds)
100 16.9
78.0 13.2
10.0 1.7
8.0 1.4
5.0 0.8

Here is a link to the recipe on Hopville: http://hopville.com/recipe/410545/speci" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... cadian-ipa

I just notice Hopville has a tab to convert to Metric! Nice!
Last edited by the_mc on 09 Mar 2011, 22:52, edited 9 times in total.

Post #194 made 15 years ago
by PistolPatch
Hi again mc,

I have to get some sleep being on the other side of the world but I've got some homework for you :)...

Check out this thread. You'll see there that Paul had the same problem as you with Hopville. What I wrote there seems to have got him sorted. Hope it makes some sense in your case as well.

Will check back here tomorrow to see how you fare.

;)
PP

P.S. Brewlength means how much beer you want to get into your bottles or kegs.
Last edited by PistolPatch on 09 Mar 2011, 23:33, edited 9 times in total.
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Post #195 made 15 years ago
by de5m0mike
PistolPatch wrote: P.S. Brewlength means how much beer you want to get into your bottles or kegs.

I'm with MC, it think that term is confusing. "Length" typically refers to time or distance, not volume. Can't we come up with a better term?

I don't know. Maybe if I understood where the term came from it might make more sense.
Last edited by de5m0mike on 10 Mar 2011, 02:52, edited 9 times in total.

Post #196 made 15 years ago
by Yeasty
Its a good one this :headhit: Hope you don't mind me jumping in.

I've entered the Hopville recipe details into the calculator and the grain bill works out close (+60g)
The IBU's are well out tho. Hopville states Boil 22.7 avg liters for 75 minutes I'm assuming they are taking the average water volume as apposed to the calculator using end of boil volume.

If the ibu's can be sorted MC will be able to adjust the Brewlength to match the grain he's got in stock.(I think :pray: )
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Last edited by Yeasty on 10 Mar 2011, 05:41, edited 11 times in total.
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Post #197 made 15 years ago
by the_mc
Yeasty wrote:Its a good one this :headhit: Hope you don't mind me jumping in.

I've entered the Hopville recipe details into the calculator and the grain bill works out close (+60g)
The IBU's are well out tho. Hopville states Boil 22.7 avg liters for 75 minutes I'm assuming they are taking the average water volume as apposed to the calculator using end of boil volume.

If the ibu's can be sorted MC will be able to adjust the Brewlength to match the grain he's got in stock.(I think :pray: )
Thanks Yeasty. If I bump the Northerner and Warrior to 1 full oz for the 75minute boil the IBU's come out the same.

From the looks of things I was using the calculator correctly just not accounting for the extra grain needed in BIAB. Now if I come up with a couple extra pounds of 2 row I can get it up to 20 ltrs since I have the extra specialty grains and hops. ;)
Last edited by the_mc on 10 Mar 2011, 06:17, edited 9 times in total.

Post #198 made 15 years ago
by PistolPatch
Off to work now but I'll check the above out later today. One thing though...
the_mc wrote:From the looks of things I was using the calculator correctly just not accounting for the extra grain needed in BIAB.
BIAB should use about the same amount of grain as it's efficiency level is somewhere between batch and fly sparging. BIAB certainly doesn't need more grain, I am still quite suspicious of the original recipe :interesting:
:peace:
Last edited by PistolPatch on 10 Mar 2011, 06:33, edited 9 times in total.
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Post #199 made 15 years ago
by Yeasty
MC
From the looks of things I was using the calculator correctly just not accounting for the extra grain needed in BIAB

Don't forget to adjust the efficiency from 75% to 79% on the sheet I posted.This figure is the default for the calculator, I changed it so it matched the Hopville recipe. You'll find that the grain bill will then be less than the Hopville recipe. Sorry I should have pointed that out earlier.

Edit:
LOL PP bit of an overlap there, you must be a better typer than me :lol:
I'm off to bed :sleep: nite nite
Last edited by Yeasty on 10 Mar 2011, 06:40, edited 9 times in total.
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Post #200 made 15 years ago
by the_mc
PistolPatch wrote:Off to work now but I'll check the above out later today. One thing though...
the_mc wrote:From the looks of things I was using the calculator correctly just not accounting for the extra grain needed in BIAB.
BIAB should use about the same amount of grain as it's efficiency level is somewhere between batch and fly sparging. BIAB certainly doesn't need more grain, I am still quite suspicious of the original recipe :interesting:
:peace:

I have looked at a few similar recipes and I am in the range. If I play around with the calculator is still wants me to go up on the grain bill. Here is what I get:

A. MEASUREMENT Units
Brew Length 20.00 lts
Fermenter Trub* 1.60 lts
Volume into Fermenter 21.60 lts
Kettle Trub & Buffer* 3.60 lts
End of Boil Efficiency* 79.00 %
End of Boil Gravity (OG) 1.074 Deg.
End of Boil Volume (Batch Size) 25.20 lts
Boil Length 75 min
Diameter of Kettle 45.00 cms
Evaporation Per Hour* 6.81 lts/hr
Evaporation for this Brew 8.51 lts
Expected Start of Boil Gravity 1.055 Deg.
Start of Boil Volume 33.71 lts
Grain Bill Required 7689 grams
Grain Absorption* 4.83 lts
Water Required is... 38.54 lts
Approximate Mash Volume 43.61 lts

Which increases the grain bill significantly:

Percent Weight (pds)
100 17.0
78.0 13.2
10.0 1.7
8.0 1.4
5.0 0.8
Last edited by the_mc on 10 Mar 2011, 11:27, edited 9 times in total.
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