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Post #1 made 9 years ago
by Streamer
I brewed my second All Amarillo APA today, this time a 5 gallon batch. I thought I was very careful with volumes, mash time, boil time, everything. Even took careful notes. I ended up way off of my target volume and surprisingly (for me) slightly low on my OG. I was going for a VIP of just over 5 gallons, which according to Biabicus I would need 5.42 gallons VIF. My VIF ended up at 4.6 gallons with a lower OG than predicted!
I've looked at "Some common reasons for a Low Efficiency Reading" and THINK I can eliminate 1,2,3,5,6,7,9,11,12,13(looked good to me, same as my last batch)and 14.
Regarding #4, I'm using a refractometer that I've calibrated just before use today, and again this evening to maker sure. 8 and 10, not sure.
I went ahead and pitched and the we'll see how it all turns out in a few weeks, but boy am I puzzled. I've attached my Biabicus. Where did I screw up?

I forgot to mention that I lit a candle, knocked on wood 9 times, held my tongue in my left cheek while standing on my right foot, and hopped around the room 3 times, just to make sure. :?
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Post #2 made 9 years ago
by Scott
Hey Streamer,

Quick answers...at this point. No idea why your numbers are off by so large a margin.

On your BIABacus, lots of fields not filled out. Certainly would help to have more detail there.

If you were closer I'd say come hang out with me for a brew session. Got to be a reason for problems. Good job with taking notes. I do even more though...and would that too.

Maybe someone else could have a look at this...?
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Post #3 made 9 years ago
by Streamer
"On your BIABacus, lots of fields not filled out. Certainly would help to have more detail there."
So I'm totally learning here - what other fields would I fill out prior to the process, or after the process that would give me/us more information to ponder?
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Post #4 made 9 years ago
by Scott
Sections L, M, N, and O.

Some of Section L was filled out. More would be better. Think "check points"... Regarding other sections, some fields don't get filled out but most do. I could send you a couple of my BIABacus files to see what I do, if it would help. You just want to get it so that if there is a problem it is obvious where the problem is...or as much as possible. For me Section L is very helpful.

You've made progress and are learning, so certainly don't worry. That's good. Wondering if perhaps you would have (for your next brew session) something else for measurement like an additional hydrometer or something. Good to confirm your numbers with a different tool. See if both existing and new tools agree.

For me, always when my VIF is low, my Gravity is high...and it has been caused by too much evaporation. Both of your numbers are low. Makes me think, like I say...I would get an additional instrument to measure your gravity. It could be defective, etc.

Also, recheck / measure your volumes in your brew pot. I'd check them before next brew too. If measurements (any of them) are off, it causes the same symptoms. My "sixth sense" says something is "off"...a measurement one way or the other.

Did you confirm grain weight on this batch? If that measurement is off it will effect gravity of wort.
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Post #5 made 9 years ago
by Streamer
Good points Scott. I'll pick up a regular hydrometer before the next brew and double check my volumes in by brew pot. I didn't check the weight of the grain this time, but definitely will before the next batch.
I would like to take a look at one of your Biabacus for reference if you don't mind sending one along.
Thanks
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Post #6 made 9 years ago
by Streamer
I went back over my notes and was able to fill in most of Section L, with the exception of Mash Volume. I keep looking at the Biabacus and I'm wondering if I could have adjusted the GIB, as that was an indicator that my gravity was going to be off. Could I have added sugar at that point, and if so how much of what type? Or, seeing that the GIB was low, boiled longer (thus reducing even further the VIF), but for how long? At the beginning of this brew, I was prepared to add water after the mash because I had thought I would have too high OG, as had happened when I brewed this as a 3 gallon brew. Here's a more complete Biabacus
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Post #7 made 9 years ago
by Scott
Hey Streamer,

Okay, I just attached the BIABacus for my second to last brew... It was a Vienna Lager where I had to make adjustments to the OG, post boil... You can see where I recorded what gravity was measured, and then after doing the math and adding water and remeasuring, see what gravity that I ended up with. Follow down that entire column to the bottom - check out what each cell does.

For certain I measure GIB (Gravity Into Boil). I get a cup of wort at the end of the mash...and cool it down, and then use my hydrometer to get a reading. That process probably takes 30 minutes or so, and I add this wort back into the boil with an hour or so to go (it's okay because the boil will sterilize it...don't forget though). Yes, measuring the GIB would tell us if we are going south...provided the instrument you are measuring with is accurate.

One measurement that I don't normally get is the VFO (Volume at Flame Out, before you've chilled the wort if you chill like I do). Usually working too hard with the immersion chiller...and stirring the wort to cool quick. I do measure after the wort is chilled and then adjust the VFO until the VAW matches what I actually have.

I would recommend NOT making adjustments such as adding DME, etc., until you know what's going on... I honestly think it is likely there are some measurement issues causing this. Not sure exactly where... In the military when we were "zeroing" our weapons we had to "tighten our shot group up" - where rounds being fired were all hitting in about the same point (off target is okay, provided all hitting in the same basic point). Only then could we "adjust" the sights to allow rounds to hit the bulls-eye. Does this make sense (or am I confusing the heck out of you...?) :) :scratch: :?: Get the process down well first, document things, make sure your measurements are as good as you can get them. Adjust later, after you are getting "consistent" results.

Personal Example:
One note - my Bayou Classic boil kettle came with pre-engraved inside the pot. Cool, right? Exactly what I wanted... Only when I had some issues back at the start on the volume, and when I checked the brew pot (by pouring 1/2 gallon big measuring cups into the pot) discovered my markings were off. By up to 0.4 gallons, when almost full. I have to have a "cheat sheet" that gives me the correct info. (By the way, I confirmed the 1/2 gallon by using smaller measuring cups to pour into it, etc.). Anyhow, for certain you should check all instruments you use to measure (including volumes), and get a nice new hydrometer to also use with taking measurements... ;)

Conclusion:
There is a logical explanation. I don't know what it is yet, but my best guess is a measurement (or multiple) might be inaccurate... So don't worry about it...just work to be accurate and document well, and it will likely jump out at you at some point. Pretty sure that will happen.
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Last edited by Scott on 25 Jul 2016, 07:10, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #8 made 9 years ago
by Streamer
Thanks Scott. I think you're right. I'm going to re-calibrate my volume and pick up a new hydrometer and thermometer - you never have enough tools ;)
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Post #9 made 9 years ago
by Superiorbrew
I noticed that in the All Amarillo APA file the default Loss from lauter value is adjusted to 0.4 L/Kg in Module X. Steamer didn't enter this value... it is there in the original file. In Scott's file this field is blank.

The changed default value in X does alter the TWN by about 1.2 L. Not sure how it alters other parameters...

Post #10 made 9 years ago
by Scott
Good eye, Superiorbrew... This might be a mistake. Not sure why Streamer added it, nor exactly what this field adjustment is meant to do.

My suspicion is Streamer's mistake is something more significant, and likely has to do with a measurement. When you delete the 0.4L/Kg it adjusts water needed slightly, but does not adjust grain needed for the brew session. I have not adjusted this field before...and don't quite "get" the meaning of what it does.
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Post #11 made 9 years ago
by Streamer
Good eye Superiorbrew. I didn't touch the module X section when I downloaded the Biabacus for this brew. Should I zero it out next time? I'm tempted to agree with Scott that .4l at this point (even though I don't know what the H it refers to) would make such a large a difference in my outcome - I did miss my VIF by quite a bit more than .4l
I'll do another brew in 3 weeks and see what comes up different. For now I'm concentrating on my thermometer, volume and gravity accuracy.
Thank you for looking at this, and all your feedback. It's a conundrum to me.
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Post #12 made 9 years ago
by Superiorbrew
I think that the value in module X relates to adjusting for liquid retention by grain in the grain bag? The value that's entered in the file looks like it should only reduce your volume by about 1 L so I agree that there must be something else contributing to the low VIF and OG.

The changed value for loss from lauter in module X is contained in the original file from the BIABacus pre-release download thread but I think that was probably a mistake and should be left blank. I plan to do a 5 gallon batch of this soon so I'm interested to see how it goes.

Post #13 made 9 years ago
by mally
There is a little more about it here
Last edited by mally on 28 Jul 2016, 15:09, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #14 made 9 years ago
by Streamer
Superior brew, would you let me know how your batch turns out? I'm going to stick with this beer until I get it down, and I would like to compare your brew to mine to see where I'm off.
After reading Mally's link, I'll leave the mysteries of X alone and follow PPs advice.

One good thing is that the wort is frothing quite nicely. I used some oxygen and a stone to aerate and I'm pleased with how that seems to have helped.

Thanks again
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Post #15 made 9 years ago
by Superiorbrew
I will Streamer... It will probably be a couple weeks before I brew that one since I have two other 5 gal batches fermenting atm but I will post here when I get some numbers.

Post #16 made 9 years ago
by Streamer
It's been 2 weeks since the brew went into the fermenter. Fermenting merrily away at a consistent 64* room temp. I just checked and it's still, slowly, bubbling away. I had hoped to bottle yesterday but since there's still action I'm holding off. I need to be out of town, leaving in 2 days (today is Sunday)and not back until Saturday, so at the earliest I can't bottle until Sunday. Is there any issue leaving the wort in the fermenter that long, assuming it quits fermenting in the next day or two?
Also, now that I see the fermentation process continuing, am I correct in deducing that the 2 week fermentation process is approximate, allowing for many variables like oxygenation in the wort, quality of yeast, available sugars, etc? I know I should take gravity readings, but I'm hesitant to waste beer! Is it ok, assuming the beer thief and everything else is properly sterilized, to pour the test sample back into the wort?
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Post #17 made 9 years ago
by Scott
I would avoid pouring it back into the wort... Pre boil sample - not a problem pouring into the boil because it will be sterilized.

Absolutely no problem just waiting until you are certain the brew is done. And if that means you leave on a road trip and the brew is a couple days past done - it's not an issue...just take care of it when you get back. No worries...
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Post #18 made 9 years ago
by Streamer
Scott wrote:I would avoid pouring it back into the wort... Pre boil sample - not a problem pouring into the boil because it will be sterilized.

Absolutely no problem just waiting until you are certain the brew is done. And if that means you leave on a road trip and the brew is a couple days past done - it's not an issue...just take care of it when you get back. No worries...
Thanks Scott, I'll follow your advice
Last edited by Streamer on 08 Aug 2016, 12:29, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #19 made 9 years ago
by Scott
I should Edit my comments (from above). Avoid pouring your FG sample back into the Beer (no longer Wort, as Yeast has done its thing...). And I would do the testing at a time when, after taking and recording the measurement, you can have your first small glass of finished beer from the batch (drink the sample). :drink: Doesn't get wasted that way, and you get to enjoy the fruits of your labor!
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Post #20 made 9 years ago
by Streamer
I bottled the batch today. My FG was 1.010, so Biabacus says I should have an ABV of 5.8%. The beer tastes better than my 1st batch, not as sweet or malty. It's conditioning at about 75*.
I'll brew this again in 2-3 weeks. I plan on holding 2 or 3 bottles back from each batch so I can compare one against the other - it will be interesting to compare bottles from each batch.
Still learning
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Post #22 made 9 years ago
by Superiorbrew
Hi Streamer,

I finally got to trying to brew the Amarillo APA now that the temperatures have cooled down (I haven't invested in a temp controlled fermentation chamber.) This was my first time using biabacus.

I've uploaded the file with some of the numbers.

Summary:

For my approx. 10 gal kettle, I used the 8.25 gal strike water (it was very close to the top after adding grain as warned in biabacus).

The estimated strike temp was off... you need to know your system. For me 7-8 degrees above mash temp works best when adding about 13-14 lbs of grain at 68F.

The VIB was actually a slightly higher than predicted - at 7.8 vs 7.67 gal. The GIB was lower at 1.042 vs 1.050.

I boiled longer than the original 60 minutes for two reasons: 1) The GIB was lower than expected. 2) After 60 minutes I still had a higher volume than expected. (Since I added the second addition of hops at the scheduled time this should increase IBUs).

After 90 minutes boiling, I got down to about 6.25 gallons, cooled and transferred to fermenter. (Unless I'm interpreting it wrong, in item L in biabacus it seems like there is an error in calculating VAW based on the the KFL entered.)

After cooling and transferring to fermenter I had about 4.9 gallons with a GAW of 1.054. A lower volume of wort and a slightly lower gravity than predicted by biabacus... but not a big difference.

After adding my 3rd generation of white labs california ale yeast starter it was fermenting nicely after about 6-8 hours. :)
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Post #23 made 9 years ago
by Streamer
I want to explore this further, and need more screen time to do so. A couple of things between our 2 biabacus (biabacusi ?) that I want to drill in to. First, we both want to end up with a VIF of 5.42 gallons. But our grain bill is different - yours calls for 12.96 lbs, while mine calls for 11.88 lbs. Mine calls for a boil time of 90 minutes, yours for 60 minutes. I'm thinking we started from a different biabacus.
In any case I'm really interested in how your finished brew tastes - will there be lots of apricot/citrus/fruit?
Keep us posted
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Post #24 made 9 years ago
by ShorePoints
Streamer, different boil times = different evaporation amounts. That feeds back into TWN and hot SWN and kettle capacity/mash volume which impacts grain weights. I am grateful that the BIABacus does it all for me.
Is one of you using a hopsock and the other not? That little "y" in the box makes for volume differences as well.
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Post #25 made 9 years ago
by Streamer
ShorePoints wrote:Streamer, different boil times = different evaporation amounts. That feeds back into TWN and hot SWN and kettle capacity/mash volume which impacts grain weights. I am grateful that the BIABacus does it all for me.
Is one of you using a hopsock and the other not? That little "y" in the box makes for volume differences as well.
SP, that makes my head hurt! But you're right now that I think about it. It does make sense that boil times would affect TWN, SWN, grain weight. It is complicated. I'm using hop sacs.
Last edited by Streamer on 15 Sep 2016, 23:47, edited 1 time in total.
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