Hello!
Can anybody tell me what a 'recommended' kettle headspace is for during the boil? I'm aware that during a vigorous rolling boil the wort may begin splashing and also violently (and quickly) rise during the hot break. As such, how much space do you try to leave to account for this? Clearly a kettle cannot be filled to the brim without resulting in a very messy hob... But how much to account for this?
On a similar note, is there a 'minimum' fill level required? For example, if I use a 21 Ltr kettle (30x30cm) for 4.5 Ltr brew lengths the kettle fill height at flame out is only 7.7cm (headspace of 22.3cm). Is there an issue with such a small fill height? When stirring the wort, given the low fill height, will I be agitating the break material too much?
I ask as I'm considering between a 12 Ltr and 21 Ltr pot. In either case I'd use a separate 12 Ltr thermo pot for the mash but the larger pan would reduce the need for dilutions and risk of boil over, although the fill height at flame out would be greatly reduced. Also the 21 Ltr would be a tight fit for the hob and have a higher evaporation loss so there are advantages and disadvantage both ways.
Thanks!
Post #2 made 11 years ago
Never really thought about exactly how much headspace to allow, I can just state from experience that you do NOT want a boil-over on your hob (stove, for those of us in the States). I have always just used the largest pot available but if you give yourself at least 4 inches of headspace and standby with a spray bottle full of water to beat back the break, you should stand a fighting chance.
That said, there is a product called Fermcap which is designed to reduce aggresive fermentation blowoff that can also be used to reduce the hot break and prevent a boil over. I can attest that it works but I have reservations about adding a silicone-based additive to my beer (even though it is FDA approved).
http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/fermcap-s-1-oz
--Todd
That said, there is a product called Fermcap which is designed to reduce aggresive fermentation blowoff that can also be used to reduce the hot break and prevent a boil over. I can attest that it works but I have reservations about adding a silicone-based additive to my beer (even though it is FDA approved).
http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/fermcap-s-1-oz
--Todd
WWBBD?
-
- SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From United States of America
-
Post #3 made 11 years ago
Generally, If you use a kettle 200% of your Batch size, and the Mash Volume Fits fully in the Kettle, there should be Plenty of Headspace.
If you can Strain/Spoon/Remove the Solid protein, from the sweet Liquor as it coagulates, you can lower the Chance of Boil over.
The HOT break, does not help the finished beer.
JMHO YMMV
If you can Strain/Spoon/Remove the Solid protein, from the sweet Liquor as it coagulates, you can lower the Chance of Boil over.
The HOT break, does not help the finished beer.
JMHO YMMV
Honest Officer, I swear to Drunk, I am Not God.
-
- SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From United States of America
-
Post #4 made 11 years ago
Yes, it appears to be the latter requirement (mash volume fits fully in the kettle!) that is getting me. Therefore I intended to do a seperate sparge but when this is added back to the kettle for the boil it only just fits (according to BIABacus).
I am trying to find a set up that will do either 5 Litres/1 Gallon or 10 Litres/2 Gallons. Not sure which. I've been putting extremes into BIABacus (eg, high OG with long boil) in the knowledge if I buy equipment that can do this it'll be able to be flexible enough to do 'regular' beers and more 'experimental' ones. I can fit a 12 Ltr pot on the hob comfortably so I'd hoped that would be okay for 5 Litres brew length but headspace (or lack of it!) worries me. I am tempted to go to a 20 Litre pot in which case the 5 Litre brew length of big beers is easy (and probably can stretch the brew length a little too) while allowing 10 Litre brews of a regular beer. *BUT* I think I'd really be pushing my luck as it'll overhang the hob somewhat...
I'd be happy to compromise and get the smaller pot and deal with the small brew lengths but I'm still a bit worried it will not give me the flexibility enough to do big beers. Hmm. I'll print some templates of the larger 20 Litre pot and see how bad it really looks when placed on the hob
.
Thanks!
I am trying to find a set up that will do either 5 Litres/1 Gallon or 10 Litres/2 Gallons. Not sure which. I've been putting extremes into BIABacus (eg, high OG with long boil) in the knowledge if I buy equipment that can do this it'll be able to be flexible enough to do 'regular' beers and more 'experimental' ones. I can fit a 12 Ltr pot on the hob comfortably so I'd hoped that would be okay for 5 Litres brew length but headspace (or lack of it!) worries me. I am tempted to go to a 20 Litre pot in which case the 5 Litre brew length of big beers is easy (and probably can stretch the brew length a little too) while allowing 10 Litre brews of a regular beer. *BUT* I think I'd really be pushing my luck as it'll overhang the hob somewhat...
I'd be happy to compromise and get the smaller pot and deal with the small brew lengths but I'm still a bit worried it will not give me the flexibility enough to do big beers. Hmm. I'll print some templates of the larger 20 Litre pot and see how bad it really looks when placed on the hob
.Thanks!
Post #5 made 11 years ago
LavaChild,
To make a 5L batch at around 1.080 SG, with a 2500gram grain Bill, a 12L kettle will hold the Mash Fine.
Since you want to do an "Unnecessary" Sparge, your are correct about the Boil Volume being HIGH, if you add the Sparge water "before the Boil" in section 'W', as that may cause the Very Low Head Space.
you also can add the Sparge "Water During the Boil" in Section 'W', That way you can adjust the head-space you prefer, which can help avoid Boil Over.
There are many Options to use BIABACUS, and Make Great beer.
Your are Correct about the Size of a batch on a Hob, as it may not have enough heat to Boil 10L "into Packaging", very well at all.(Mine did not).
To make a 5L batch at around 1.080 SG, with a 2500gram grain Bill, a 12L kettle will hold the Mash Fine.
Since you want to do an "Unnecessary" Sparge, your are correct about the Boil Volume being HIGH, if you add the Sparge water "before the Boil" in section 'W', as that may cause the Very Low Head Space.
you also can add the Sparge "Water During the Boil" in Section 'W', That way you can adjust the head-space you prefer, which can help avoid Boil Over.
There are many Options to use BIABACUS, and Make Great beer.
Your are Correct about the Size of a batch on a Hob, as it may not have enough heat to Boil 10L "into Packaging", very well at all.(Mine did not).
Honest Officer, I swear to Drunk, I am Not God.
-
- SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From United States of America
-
Post #6 made 11 years ago
Hi joshua,
Please explain how I can do the batch you specify without dilutions. See attached. I've assumed the '5L Batch' is VIF rather than VIP (as I'd prefer). You did not specify the volume but I'm putting 120 mins being as the aim of this is to test the 'experimental' capacity where 120 mins does not seem unreasonable. Additionally, this uses only 2kg rather than 2.5kg grain bill which should further help your case. Unfortunately, this still needs 13.26 ltr mash volume (exceeding the 12 ltr kettle).
Thanks.
Please explain how I can do the batch you specify without dilutions. See attached. I've assumed the '5L Batch' is VIF rather than VIP (as I'd prefer). You did not specify the volume but I'm putting 120 mins being as the aim of this is to test the 'experimental' capacity where 120 mins does not seem unreasonable. Additionally, this uses only 2kg rather than 2.5kg grain bill which should further help your case. Unfortunately, this still needs 13.26 ltr mash volume (exceeding the 12 ltr kettle).
Thanks.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Last edited by LavaChild on 05 May 2015, 21:08, edited 1 time in total.
Post #7 made 11 years ago
LavaChild, a 120 minute boil is a "Bit" excessive
, a 90 minute boil with 1.5 L withheld and added Before the Boil works.
The shorter boil will add 190grams to the grain Bill, and sometimes 1.5L withheld may be un-nesessary
if the Bag is drained thoroughly Drain(squeezed).
I hope this Helps, as there are Limits to BIABACUS, and there are limits to making Great Beer.
The shorter boil will add 190grams to the grain Bill, and sometimes 1.5L withheld may be un-nesessary
I hope this Helps, as there are Limits to BIABACUS, and there are limits to making Great Beer.
Last edited by joshua on 05 May 2015, 21:59, edited 1 time in total.
Honest Officer, I swear to Drunk, I am Not God.
-
- SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From United States of America
-
Post #8 made 11 years ago
Thanks for the update.
As you suggested I tried to boil some water this evening in the largest pot I currently have to get an idea for how powerful our kitchen gas hob is - The kitchen is not my usual domain!
I filled a pot to 3.5 Ltrs. This left about 5cm headspace. It took ~25 mins to get to a boil and ~30 mins before it got particularly vigorous (I've heard this phrase mentioned a lot). The top of the cooker (not the bit where the actual hob is the nearer the front controls) was also very hot by this point - Not sure if this is the best cooker out there! This has given me a bit of concern about the ability to boil 10 Ltrs or 18ish Ltrs. I'm still deciding between getting a 12 Ltr pot or a 20 Ltr pot. Everybody seems to recommend the latter but unless I'm able to get that to the boil then it's just a disadvantage - Bigger, more evaporation loss, etc. How does ~30 mins to get 3.5 Ltr to a boil sound? Is that 'normal' or slow? You think it'd have issues with larger volumes? I know it's hard to say but... I won't have the ability to test a larger pot until I've already purchased it...
Note, I also noticed during the vigorous boil some of the largest bubbles were rising to ~1cm above the water level. This makes me realise 5 - 7.5cm (2 - 3in) should be considered a minimum to avoid boil over. (Perhaps I'm over worrying but I've done an extra brew before and managed to boil over when adding the extract... I know the pain of a boil over and I'm keen not to repeat it!).
Thanks!
As you suggested I tried to boil some water this evening in the largest pot I currently have to get an idea for how powerful our kitchen gas hob is - The kitchen is not my usual domain!
I filled a pot to 3.5 Ltrs. This left about 5cm headspace. It took ~25 mins to get to a boil and ~30 mins before it got particularly vigorous (I've heard this phrase mentioned a lot). The top of the cooker (not the bit where the actual hob is the nearer the front controls) was also very hot by this point - Not sure if this is the best cooker out there! This has given me a bit of concern about the ability to boil 10 Ltrs or 18ish Ltrs. I'm still deciding between getting a 12 Ltr pot or a 20 Ltr pot. Everybody seems to recommend the latter but unless I'm able to get that to the boil then it's just a disadvantage - Bigger, more evaporation loss, etc. How does ~30 mins to get 3.5 Ltr to a boil sound? Is that 'normal' or slow? You think it'd have issues with larger volumes? I know it's hard to say but... I won't have the ability to test a larger pot until I've already purchased it...
Note, I also noticed during the vigorous boil some of the largest bubbles were rising to ~1cm above the water level. This makes me realise 5 - 7.5cm (2 - 3in) should be considered a minimum to avoid boil over. (Perhaps I'm over worrying but I've done an extra brew before and managed to boil over when adding the extract... I know the pain of a boil over and I'm keen not to repeat it!).
Thanks!
Post #9 made 11 years ago
LavaChild,
Is the Hob Gas or electric?
Getting to Strong Simmer, and then to Full Boil in 30 minutes is good, since you'll be at 152F/66.66C during the Mash, and be at 178F/80C at Mashout, getting to 100C from 80C Quickly appears Very possible.
To be Frank, if you can afford the 20 liter pot, it would be the best investment.
You may not be able to boil 20L on your Hob, but maybe a 10 liter batch will, and you will have More than enough head space, as THughes stated in the post#2.
As I mentioned a pot twice the Size is minimum to brew BIAB, But, A pot 4 times the Batch size is a better choice, based on Availability/Affordability.
An interesting thing is,
"Different Size Pans: Will a given volume of water boil at a higher temperature in a tall, narrow pot than in a short, wide one? Yes. since the tall, narrow pot has a great depth, its bottom-lying water is under greater pressure from the water above it than is the water at the bottom of the short, wide pot. The greater the pressure, the higher the boiling point. The difference is approximately 1° F." From: http://whatscookingamerica.net/boilpoint.htm
To keep the HopTop cooler, there is a useful Product called a "Wok Ring".
It comes in many sizes and Strengths, and will hold the Pot higher above the Hob, and has holes around the diameter to let heat spread. But keep aware, the weight 15L is Something like 15Kg......so check for stability.
example: http://www.webstaurantstore.com/town-34 ... 34708.html
Is the Hob Gas or electric?
Getting to Strong Simmer, and then to Full Boil in 30 minutes is good, since you'll be at 152F/66.66C during the Mash, and be at 178F/80C at Mashout, getting to 100C from 80C Quickly appears Very possible.
To be Frank, if you can afford the 20 liter pot, it would be the best investment.
You may not be able to boil 20L on your Hob, but maybe a 10 liter batch will, and you will have More than enough head space, as THughes stated in the post#2.
As I mentioned a pot twice the Size is minimum to brew BIAB, But, A pot 4 times the Batch size is a better choice, based on Availability/Affordability.
An interesting thing is,
"Different Size Pans: Will a given volume of water boil at a higher temperature in a tall, narrow pot than in a short, wide one? Yes. since the tall, narrow pot has a great depth, its bottom-lying water is under greater pressure from the water above it than is the water at the bottom of the short, wide pot. The greater the pressure, the higher the boiling point. The difference is approximately 1° F." From: http://whatscookingamerica.net/boilpoint.htm
To keep the HopTop cooler, there is a useful Product called a "Wok Ring".
It comes in many sizes and Strengths, and will hold the Pot higher above the Hob, and has holes around the diameter to let heat spread. But keep aware, the weight 15L is Something like 15Kg......so check for stability.
example: http://www.webstaurantstore.com/town-34 ... 34708.html
Honest Officer, I swear to Drunk, I am Not God.
-
- SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From United States of America
-
Post #10 made 11 years ago
This can help you to go for a larger volume.PistolPatch - When brewing on your stovetop, to increase the vigour of the boil, float a large stainless steel bowl on top of your wort to reduce the surface area
MS
Last edited by Mad_Scientist on 06 May 2015, 07:22, edited 1 time in total.
-
- SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From United States of America
-
Post #11 made 11 years ago
joshua: It is a gas hob.
Thanks for the wok ring idea - Not sure what my partner would make of it, though!
As for the larger size pot, I'll consider it but I made a template to see how large a 30cm (20 Ltr) pot really looks on the hob and it *really* is a stretch. It's not so much the price but whether the hob can fit it and whether I'll be able to comfortably lift it and pour sticky wort out of it. The metal grid above the hob that the pan sits on is ~26cmx26cm. The 12 Ltr is 25x25cm, the 21 Ltr is 30x30cm. Therefore, if I get a larger pot but brew the same length I'll end up with a volume in the pot that occupies less height but more width, hence more evaporation but, based on your link, a (slightly - negligible) lower boiling point.
Mad_Scientist: With this is there not a risk of evaporation condensing on the bowl and returning to the pot? I've read it's important to boil off unwanted flavours which I imagine would not happen (or be less efficient) with a bowl in there. Additionally, not only would this make stirring harder, it'd increase the heat of the wort (which, I guess, is the objective we see here) but I wonder if that could make boil over more of a possibility.
Could you link me to a photograph which shows somebody doing this? I'm wondering if I'm visualising a too large a bowl or something...
Thanks for the wok ring idea - Not sure what my partner would make of it, though!
As for the larger size pot, I'll consider it but I made a template to see how large a 30cm (20 Ltr) pot really looks on the hob and it *really* is a stretch. It's not so much the price but whether the hob can fit it and whether I'll be able to comfortably lift it and pour sticky wort out of it. The metal grid above the hob that the pan sits on is ~26cmx26cm. The 12 Ltr is 25x25cm, the 21 Ltr is 30x30cm. Therefore, if I get a larger pot but brew the same length I'll end up with a volume in the pot that occupies less height but more width, hence more evaporation but, based on your link, a (slightly - negligible) lower boiling point.
Mad_Scientist: With this is there not a risk of evaporation condensing on the bowl and returning to the pot? I've read it's important to boil off unwanted flavours which I imagine would not happen (or be less efficient) with a bowl in there. Additionally, not only would this make stirring harder, it'd increase the heat of the wort (which, I guess, is the objective we see here) but I wonder if that could make boil over more of a possibility.
Could you link me to a photograph which shows somebody doing this? I'm wondering if I'm visualising a too large a bowl or something...
Post #12 made 11 years ago
LavaChild, Check the topic at viewtopic.php?t=1021#p13436, to see a Bowl floating 
on the Boil.
Last edited by joshua on 06 May 2015, 16:43, edited 1 time in total.
Honest Officer, I swear to Drunk, I am Not God.
-
- SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From United States of America
-
Post #13 made 11 years ago
Or a video on YouTube by Fluidjuice here
Last edited by mally on 06 May 2015, 20:13, edited 1 time in total.
G B
I spent lots of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I squandered
I've stopped drinking, but only when I'm asleep
I ONCE gave up women and alcohol - it was the worst 20 minutes of my life
I spent lots of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I squandered
I've stopped drinking, but only when I'm asleep
I ONCE gave up women and alcohol - it was the worst 20 minutes of my life
-
- SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From Great Britain
-
