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Post #76 made 11 years ago
by PistolPatch
I've no time atm but...

Hold on, we are running around in circles here. I and a few others have already spent a lot of time on this thread so Ben, it's important that you act on any advice already given. For example...
PistolPatch wrote:Maybe get some pH strips for the next brew and remember to measure the KFL and VIF as these are the best volume figures of all.
The same results are getting posted but no procedural change has occurred such as checking pH or taking the extra measurements. Make sure you do these on the next brew.
Last edited by PistolPatch on 11 Nov 2014, 07:49, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #77 made 11 years ago
by kaiserben
PistolPatch wrote: Ben, it's important that you act on any advice already given. For example...
PistolPatch wrote:Maybe get some pH strips for the next brew and remember to measure the KFL and VIF as these are the best volume figures of all.
The same results are getting posted but no procedural change has occurred such as checking pH or taking the extra measurements. Make sure you do these on the next brew.
Okay, yes, measuring pH slipped my mind. I'll make sure to do this next time. (I have the strips ready)

But KFL and VIF I'm not sure how to accrautely measure (because I no-chill). I can really only estimate these (and not very well considering all my no-chill cubes' Litre markers are not accurate (as we found out from earlier in this thread).
joshua wrote:Kaiser,

I looked over you BIABACUS program, and the only thing that seems out of line is the GIB...the Drop to 30 points from 33 points is 91%.

50 points at GAW being 45 is right on..(0.91*50=45.45)
Ah-ha! Very interesting. So it seems my issue stems from the mash. That narrows it down a lot. (and pH could be the cause, amongst other things).

At this stage I just noticed that the measurements for the last 2 brews were identical (once you discount the extra boil time in the latest brew). Both were:

GIB (estimated) = 1.033
GIB (actual) = 1.030

GAW (estimated) = 1.050
GAW (actual) = 1.042
Last edited by kaiserben on 11 Nov 2014, 08:06, edited 1 time in total.

Post #78 made 11 years ago
by kaiserben
PS - appreciate everyone's input. Sorry this has dragged out so long.

I've just purchased a Grainfather (which might arrive in time for my next brew). I guess that means I won't need to BIAB, but I'd like to understand all these brewing issues before I move on. I think it's very important that I increase my knowledge of all things brewing.

Post #79 made 11 years ago
by PistolPatch
I'm not too pleased to seeing you purchasing the Grainfather Ben but it looks like it is a done deal. Why I am not pleased is that more equipment will not solve your problem, it will, if anything make it harder to find.

The lovely thing about BIAB is that we all should actually get very comparable measurements. Your measurements to date are not comparable so the last thing you want to be doing is embarking on a more complicaed system when we still don't have the basics correct.

Also, gravity measurements mean nothing without volume measurements. You can never talk about gravity without also talking of volume as well. Some of the above posts are missing this and I don't even understand them. (Your Section P's of the BIABacus have been balancing fairly nicely.)

Your issue, and your only issue is that you are not achieving your kettle efficiency. It has always been this issue and we narrowed that down many, many posts ago.

...

As for no-chilling, use weighing (bathroom scales and kitchen scales) as a mechanism. I hope we mentioned that above as well??? It's really easy.

...

Finally, Ben, I hope you know that more equipment won't improve the quality of your beer. In fact, it can increase the risk of you producing lower quality beer.

And, please let us know that all the work that has been put into this thread hasn't been a waste of time for you Ben. I'm pretty worried it has been :think:,
PP
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Post #80 made 11 years ago
by mally
PP added the above whilst I was typing but....
kaiserben wrote:But KFL and VIF I'm not sure how to accrautely measure (because I no-chill). I can really only estimate these (and not very well considering all my no-chill cubes' Litre markers are not accurate (as we found out from earlier in this thread).
It was mentioned before about using your bathroom scales, or headspace measurement. Not sure if you can use this method but...

If you pick up your no chill cube when empty and stand on the scales; note the weight.
fill no chill cube with wort and stand on the scales whilst holding it; this weight minus previous = VAW.
decant wort into fermenter, stand on scales holding no chill cube with trub left behind; this weight minus original = KFL.

Try not to drink 5 Litres of beer between measurements as you are using yourself as a "constant". :shock: :lol: :lol:
Or if you can, just use the cube on its own or a stand or something if it doesnt sit on your scales well.
I had never heard of the grainfather, but looks interesting after reading up on it a little. Have to agree with PP here though, I hope this purchase wasn't based on your problems, as you may still need to resolve them.

I do like the copper lid attachment so you can turn it into a still though. :smoke:
Last edited by mally on 11 Nov 2014, 20:54, edited 1 time in total.
G B
I spent lots of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I squandered
I've stopped drinking, but only when I'm asleep
I ONCE gave up women and alcohol - it was the worst 20 minutes of my life
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From Great Britain

Post #81 made 11 years ago
by kaiserben
(FYI I also ferment directly in the no-chill cube).

I did go through the weighing on bathroom scales thing (but my bathroom scales measure all my empty containers as 0, so I'm expecting it's not the best of measurements). For what it's worth, just now I weighed the latest batch in its fermenter at "9.2kg" (I also measured an identical empty cube/fermenter, again as "0kg", and even when using myself as a constant I got no change :scratch: ).

I'll also mention that back during the brew session I poured virtually the entire wort into the cube/fermenter, I distinctly remember holding back almost nothing (definitely not more than 50ml, of gunk) in the kettle. So KFL is 0.05.

And this might be useful: I plugged my water profile and grain bill into the "E Z Water Calculator" and it predicted that my pH would have been a little high (5.72 at room temp, when optimum is apparently 5.4-5.6 at room temp). I have no idea if that's far out enough to be a problem.

All this certainly hasn't been a waste of time for me. I think I'm learning a fair bit along the way. Buying the Grainfather was more because I originally was going to buy an urn - to stop using my kitchen stovetop and small 19L kettle - but the cost of an urn, and then installing taps, temp probes, temp control etc etc would end up being more than half the cost of a Grainfather, so some mates & I pitched in and bought one together.
Last edited by kaiserben on 11 Nov 2014, 23:10, edited 1 time in total.

Post #82 made 11 years ago
by joshua
kaiserben, Bathroom Scales have a + or - value of 5-7 pounds, there is an adjust for "Tare" on some scales....

My EX-SWMBO would adjust the Tare to roughly -10pounds....

Also, As far as Ph and Mashing, anything below 6ph is acceptable, and 5.2 is Perfect.

There is an ongoing discussion on Mash Times, starting with the 20 minute mash Mash, But, realistically, temperatures below 153F/60C(Beta Amylase) take Longer than above 153F/60C(Alpha Amylase)...How much longer is not known, but, see http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?ti ... of_Mashing

JMHO, YMMV
Honest Officer, I swear to Drunk, I am Not God.
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Post #83 made 11 years ago
by kaiserben
So ESB5 just put into no-chill cube (it weighs in at 8.4kg filled with hot wort. Remembering from previous posts that my empty cube weighs "nothing" and that this measurement is probably flawed).

I got the closest/best GIB yet of 1.032 (expecting 1.033). This may have been because I did a more extensive mash out. Also I had a blip during the mash itself where the temp somehow crept up to 70C for about 15 minutes (I don't know how, I didn't do anything different to normal on the stove and everything was well stirred for every temp measurement).
However my GAW still a problem: 1.044 (expecting 1.051). Which must be down to my boil/kettle's evaporation rate being lower than the way BIABacus is set up. I also suspect maybe my rolling boil isn't as vigorous as it should be.

All early volumes were virtually spot on (only 50ml lower than expected), but from the boil there is obviously far less evaporation than expected. I end up with nearly a Litre more than predicted at VFO and this affects most measurements from then on (and thus a lower than expected gravity).

So do I need to tweak something in BIABacus to suit my equipment?

pH test:
Now I don't think this is my problem and is simply confusing the issue.
As mentioned earlier, I plugged my local water details and grains into the "E Z Water Calculator" and it predicted that my pH would have been a little high (5.72 at room temp, when optimum is apparently 5.4-5.6 at room temp). Technically this latest brew would have been 5.75, but this not going to be my problem.
Anyway, the strips I have only measure up to a pH of 5.2 (so useless for my purposes?). Anyway I kinda forgot again and ended up doing the pH test at end of boil (at near-boiling temp) and the colour stayed at the highest the strips go to. :blush:
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Last edited by kaiserben on 22 Nov 2014, 14:20, edited 1 time in total.

Post #84 made 11 years ago
by mally
Hi Kaiserben.

Just a couple of things to mention.
Your BIABacus is in XLSX format and has become unprotected. This can cause problems down the line if you inadvertently alter any of the calculation cells.
Always save in XLS format and check the cells are protected.

It seems a little better than previous, but I think comparing your 8.4Kg (8.4L) to calculated (8.14L) "may" be misleading. As you said before your scales do not weigh the empty container correctly so I would tend not to trust them too much. Did you do any headspace measurments to compare?

For info; if you did want to alter your evaporation rate (or see effects of altering it), go to section X, second line down is "change evaporation rate to". Here you can either specify the rate per hour.
G B
I spent lots of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I squandered
I've stopped drinking, but only when I'm asleep
I ONCE gave up women and alcohol - it was the worst 20 minutes of my life
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From Great Britain

Post #85 made 11 years ago
by kaiserben
mally wrote:Did you do any headspace measurments to compare?
At which stage?

The only time I did a headspace measurement was at the initial TWN (with cold water) in kettle stage, where I measured height and then measured headspace to double check (using a stainless ruler). All the rest up to and including KFL were simply height on the stainless ruler.

Once it's into the cube/fermenter I unfortunately have no method of measuring volume that is worthwhile (besides what BIABacus estimates for me).

I might tinker with my "change evaporation rate to" field and see if this might help. (ie change it to 2.6L/hr for my next batch and see what happens).
Last edited by kaiserben on 22 Nov 2014, 21:46, edited 1 time in total.

Post #86 made 11 years ago
by PistolPatch
Ben,

I agree that you should increase the BIABacus evaporation auto-estimate. You are doing very small batch sizes and the auto-estimate will tend to be less accurate as we move to extremes BUT doing this will not fix your main problem. (I feel as though I am going to be writing exactly what I have written before but let me have one more go ;))

Your first and most major problem is one of kettle efficiency. Read and study this post which will explain how gravity and volume are inter-linked. If you are not reaching the kettle efficiencies predicted by the BIABacus then, 'all else is moonshine'.

Secondly, buy the damn pH strips of the correct sort!!!!! (Your post above shows you have no knowledge of water chemistry. You need to trust our judgement a lot more.) Your pH is very likely why your kettle efficiencies are only about 5% lower than predicted. Your kettle efficiencies are the first two numbers in the pic below.
kaiserben.jpg
Thirdly, many hours have been spent on this thread. I'm sure I have spent at least three hours on it and I am just one person. Add in all the other answers and that is a lot of hours that have been spent solely on you. You've been doing very well on a lot of your replies and detail but also missing/dismissing some very critical things. You (and the site) can't afford this so...

Make a donation to the site, tell admin to buy us all a beer on your behalf but, most importantly, for you, please study kettle efficiency so as you understand it, and buy the pH strips.

Get into it!
PP
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Last edited by PistolPatch on 22 Nov 2014, 22:30, edited 1 time in total.
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Where did I go wrong?

Post #87 made 11 years ago
by Contrarian
Also, with measuring volumes the BIABacus will give you your volumes if you have put your kettle dimensions in. Sections 'S' and 'T' give you the volume and headspace in centimeters and inches so if you have a ruler or a spoon and a tape measure you can check your volume at any point of the process.

Are you boiling as hard as you can with your equipment? If not it might be worth ramping it up a bit and seeing if that helps.

You can also check if volume is the issue by multiplying out the SG x volume. So if you are after 20L at 1.045, 20 x 45 = 900, if you 25L at 1.036, 25 x 36 = 900 then you have the same amount of sugar over a larger volume.

This is mainly useful because if things don't add up you can tell you wouldn't have hit your target gravity, even if you did hit the volume.

Post #88 made 11 years ago
by kaiserben
I'm really sorry this is dragging on so long :cry:

Another brew day has been done (see attached BIABacus sheet)

Once again I undershot my GIB (1.032, but expecting 1.036/1) and of course that means I undershot my GAW.

I took a proper pH measurement (fifteen minutes into the mash) and it was ~5.6 (hot) and ~5.4 (once cooled to room temp).

Things I did differently from previous were:

10% of the grain bill was lighter than before (Crystal Wheat at 130 EBC, rather than the previous dark crystal at 240 EBC).
I adjusted the evaporation rate in the BIABacus to 2.6L/hour (all previous brews were at default). Also, I switched to a different stove top which seemed to get a more vigorous boil.
I brewed by myself for the first time (which made some things harder to do, but also meant I was less distracted and could make doubly sure of all my measurements).

I'm about ready to give up and just use more grain to get the gravities I want.
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Last edited by kaiserben on 30 Nov 2014, 18:49, edited 1 time in total.

Post #89 made 11 years ago
by mally
Hi Kaiserben.

Your spreadsheet is still unprotected and in XLSX format.
mally wrote:Hi Kaiserben.

Just a couple of things to mention.
Your BIABacus is in XLSX format and has become unprotected. This can cause problems down the line if you inadvertently alter any of the calculation cells.
Always save in XLS format and check the cells are protected.
Your discrepancies aren't that huge now, 5 gravity points isn't great, but it isn't bad either.
As you seem to be consistently getting low values though there is still something a little odd going on.
I haven't re-read all the previous recommendations, are any of those still outstanding?
Other than that, maybe water chemistry :scratch:
Last edited by mally on 30 Nov 2014, 21:12, edited 1 time in total.
G B
I spent lots of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I squandered
I've stopped drinking, but only when I'm asleep
I ONCE gave up women and alcohol - it was the worst 20 minutes of my life
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From Great Britain

Post #90 made 11 years ago
by joshua
kaiserben, I looked over your Latest BIABACUS file, along with the Previous Brews.....

If you can change your Mash Temperature on your next Batch? It might help fix your Problem.

Instead of 152F, could you try 155F or 156F?

This would Increase the Alpha Amylase a few percent.

The Beta Amylase should not change at this Temperature.

JMHO
Honest Officer, I swear to Drunk, I am Not God.
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Post #91 made 11 years ago
by kaiserben
mally wrote: I haven't re-read all the previous recommendations, are any of those still outstanding?
Other than that, maybe water chemistry :scratch:
I think I've explored every avenue (as much as my equipment will allow me), except water chemistry.

My local (Sydney) water is soft, low in calcium.

I've read an encyclopedia's worth of forum posts about water chemistry/additions. It's difficult to tell if people know what they're talking about a lot of the time, so all posts taken with a grain of salt (pun intended).

The only addition it seems Sydneysiders make to their brews is gypsum. One person reported that the only difference gypsum additions made to his brewing was an "efficiency increase from 75% to 85%."

joshua wrote: Instead of 152F, could you try 155F or 156F?
Yes. I can certainly try that.
Last edited by kaiserben on 01 Dec 2014, 07:49, edited 1 time in total.

Post #92 made 11 years ago
by joshua
kaiserben,

Calcium Sulfate(gypsum) is good , and the Sulfate will bring out the Hop Bitterness very well.

Calcium Chloride will add calcium also, and the Chloride brings out the Malty flavor, by Blocking Bitterness.
Honest Officer, I swear to Drunk, I am Not God.
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Post #94 made 11 years ago
by PistolPatch
I honestly can't believe that my last post here was not acknowledged let alone acted upon. I have no idea why I spent all that time writing it.***

Have I missed something here? Have any pH strips been bought?
PistolPatch wrote:...Thirdly, many hours have been spent on this thread. I'm sure I have spent at least three hours on it and I am just one person. Add in all the other answers and that is a lot of hours that have been spent solely on you. You've been doing very well on a lot of your replies and detail but also missing/dismissing some very critical things. You (and the site) can't afford this so...

Make a donation to the site, tell admin to buy us all a beer on your behalf but, most importantly, for you, please study kettle efficiency so as you understand it, and buy the pH strips...
kaiserben wrote:I'm really sorry this is dragging on so long :cry:...

Another brew day has been done (see attached BIABacus sheet)

Once again I undershot my GIB...

I'm about ready to give up and just use more grain to get the gravities I want.
Your plan to just use more grain instead of following my advice above sounds like the way to go as then this thread can be closed.

...

*** If anyone thinks this post is unfair/abrupt, read the whole thread and if your opinion stays the same let a mod know and they will edit it or delete it. On this site though, any member who takes time to think and concentrate on your question and then spend a lot of time giving careful (full of care) answers, deserves to be acknowledged and their advice acted upon. (Incorrect advice is rarely given here and when it is, it is nearly always corrected.)
Last edited by PistolPatch on 03 Dec 2014, 20:50, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #95 made 11 years ago
by mally
Pat, did you notice?
kaiserben wrote:I took a proper pH measurement (fifteen minutes into the mash) and it was ~5.6 (hot) and ~5.4 (once cooled to room temp).
Just wondering :think:
Last edited by mally on 04 Dec 2014, 00:48, edited 1 time in total.
G B
I spent lots of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I squandered
I've stopped drinking, but only when I'm asleep
I ONCE gave up women and alcohol - it was the worst 20 minutes of my life
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From Great Britain

Post #96 made 11 years ago
by kaiserben
Wow! That's so incredibly disappointing.

Yes I did buy and use the pH strips. And AFAIK I've changed something for each new brew to try to isolate the problem (except for one time, where I merely took extra care in all my measurements).

Pat's posts were the ones I took most seriously. More recently, the semi-abusive nature that crept into his posts started to make me worry about posting my results here. So I think my time here is done.

Thanks for the BIABacus. It's amazing and I'll still make a donation. And thanks to all those who tried to help.

Post #98 made 11 years ago
by PistolPatch
mally wrote:Pat, did you notice?
kaiserben wrote:I took a proper pH measurement (fifteen minutes into the mash) and it was ~5.6 (hot) and ~5.4 (once cooled to room temp).
Just wondering :think:
I obviously did not see that post.

Why was this not pointed out to me earlier?

Now we have a situation where a member is angry at me because I think he has missed doing something several times (at least) but apparently he hasn't.

I'm usually very good and diligent at keeping track of many member's scenarios and situations here. At the moment though, I am doing 6 days a week of on average, 10 hours a day, at my normal job. If I make a mistake, more than ever, I really hope others would step in very rapidly especially in threads like this.

If I ever get cranky/frustrated in a thread, it means I or you are missing something. I don't have a problem at all in being told I have missed something or made a mistake. (mally, I would prefer a link to the above and when it was posted because trying to track that particular post down just takes more time and I don't have time to read every thread over and over again like I so often do.)

kaiserben, your donation should have been made a lot earlier and when you do make one, you don't make it in the tone of, "Donation made. Goodbye."

...

For some reason, a few people think that this site exists to service them and pay full attention to them and their questions. This site exists because a few brewers could not stand seeing poor advice being offered and brewers wasting time and money on following that poor advice. We don't let poor advice slide on this site. If anyone wants to say goodbye to this site, I would definitely encourage them - maybe try a FaceBook site for high quality, personal advice? If you are prepared to be polite and diligent and responsive, then I, for one, would be very sad to see you go.

...

Anyway, that's another 3/4 hour I don't have, spent on this thread. If I made errors here, why did not anyone pull me up before? Ben, mods??? Surely everyone can't expect more concentration from me that I already give this site?
Last edited by PistolPatch on 04 Dec 2014, 21:11, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #99 made 11 years ago
by Rick
Seems like an honest mistake to me, no need to be dramatic here Ben ... :(

Reading back, I don't know how 5.4pH was achieved with 100% tap water ... this sounds off to me, but entirely possible I guess.

What were the exact strips you used? We tout the use of paper DuoTest strips as they are more accurate for our application relative to the plastic ones. I have nothing to cite, just repeating a mantra that I've been trusting (with success) so far. I have no reason to question it after many brews.
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Post #100 made 11 years ago
by PistolPatch
Rick wrote:Seems like an honest mistake to me, no need to be dramatic here Ben ... :(

Reading back, I don't know how 5.4pH was achieved with 100% tap water ... this sounds off to me, but entirely possible I guess.

What were the exact strips you used? We tout the use of paper DuoTest strips as they are more accurate for our application relative to the plastic ones. I have nothing to cite, just repeating a mantra that I've been trusting (with success) so far. I have no reason to question it after many brews.
Nice post Rick :peace:,

Threads like this where we can't find a quick answer are very frustrating for everyone and your quote above, "no need to be dramatic here," applies just as much to me :) as it does to Ben.

I'll be in Sydney on Thursday Ben - see this thread. If you can make it, do so and maybe one of us will find the something we are missing in this thread. We are definitely missing something though. And, if you do come, make sure you bring a print-out of this thread.

:lol:
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 08 Dec 2014, 21:22, edited 1 time in total.
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