A step into the 'unknown' batch sparge to BIAB

Post #1 made 12 years ago
Hi there,

I have been following this site for some time and am looking to move to BIAB next week.

Any thoughts/comments on my proposed set-up would be nice.

I just received a nice present from the taxman to finance a BIAB setup!

I have been brewing on the kitchen gas stove with a 30L kettle and 30l mash tun (igloo style) with some really great results (7 AG brews so far) though am getting only a very low effiency..(yeah, yeah - I know efficiency is a controversial subject :) )

So I have decided to go all BIAB but with some modifications to suite my circumstances.

I plan on getting a Buffalo electric kettle Shown here

Since I am very picky about mash temps and do not have the facilities to fit a bag hoist, I am getting a thermos kettle for mashing with full volume Thermos pot

and of course a bag 50l BIAB brew bag

I have a very efficient plate chiller - full boil to pitching temp in 10-15 minutes 30 Plate 175Kw chiller

The process would then e to heat the strike water in the Buffalo - drain to thermos pot fitted with BIAB bag, drain back to buffalo, boil, chill to FV.

The thermos pot allegedly only loses 1 degree C for a 90 minute mash (far better than my current cooler solution at about 1.3C every 30 minutes :( )

While I know some people use the Buffalo for the entire process, I see issues with volumes - for a 23 batch BIABacus often come with the warning Mash volume approaches or exceeds kettle size, hence the 50L thermos pot (I may even splash out a little more for the 70L pot ...

Any thoughts/suggestions, or anyone use this sort of process and can give any hints ?


Martin aka Niimus

P.S. I live in Derby UK - anyone else local interested in getting together for brew days, beer tasting etc. or know of any local BYO groups (I know Mally is not too far from me ..)
Last edited by Niimus on 23 Mar 2014, 18:32, edited 1 time in total.

Post #2 made 12 years ago
Niimus,

I Live in the cold North of the USA. I just use a keggle that holds about 15 gallons. I heat it to just above the mash temperature and place the bag and grain in the pot to equalize to the exact temperature (I hope). I cover the pot with a lid and throw a old blanket on the keggle. I lose a few degrees in a hour with the outside air being -10F. In the Summer it remains constant for the hour without a blanket. Thermal mass will hold a lot of heat. More than long enough to finish your mash. You can add heat to the mash water as it mashes. That is a benefit to mashing in your brew pot!

I find that 70% of the starches are converted to sugars in the first 15 minutes anyway. So why worry about losing a few degrees? Why bother with a thermos or extra gear? I converted the cooler that I purchased when I brewed 3V, to a cooler! I store ice and beer in it for parties! All I had to do was remove the spout and bazooka screen to convert it to a cooler! It works great!

Good luck and it's nice to have you on board! :thumbs:
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Post #3 made 12 years ago
What BobBrews said. Why buggerise around with an extra vessel (more time AND money), when your 40L urn will do the job perfectly well for all but the "biggest" 23L batches. Sometimes I have to withhold 2L from the mash in my 40L urn (the 2L is added back in pre-boil) but that is easy.

As to mash temps, what Bob said again. I lose at most 2 deg C, by just chucking a couple of sleeping bags over the urn. If I could be bothered tying them up around the urn, I suspect I would lose only 1 deg. (But then Sydney ain't Wisconsin (go Packers) or Derby.)

I can highly recommend urning all the way.
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From Australia

Post #4 made 12 years ago
Hi Niimus,

As the others have said, I wouldn't worry too much about your volumes at the moment. Try and keep your brew days simple, and use the same pot until you get to grips with your setup. If this means reducing your VIF by a litre or 2 until you can dial in your system then I would recommend it.

As an example, I know how much losses I have due to evaporation (within a reasonable range), and this is less than the BIABacus predicts. I also reduce the amount of KFL the BIABacus predicts, but this is only because I have a reasonable understanding of my setup, & the styles I brew.

With this experience I can achieve 25L VIF on average gravity brews. So you may be able to as well, but definitely learn from your system first. :luck:
G B
I spent lots of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I squandered
I've stopped drinking, but only when I'm asleep
I ONCE gave up women and alcohol - it was the worst 20 minutes of my life
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From Great Britain

Post #5 made 12 years ago
Niimus wrote:P.S. I live in Derby UK - anyone else local interested in getting together for brew days, beer tasting etc. or know of any local BYO groups (I know Mally is not too far from me ..)
I don't know if you have had a chance to read any of these replies yet Niimus, but I forgot to mention about your beer tasting comment. Have a look here for a beer swap that is imminent.
Last edited by mally on 27 Mar 2014, 01:52, edited 1 time in total.
G B
I spent lots of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I squandered
I've stopped drinking, but only when I'm asleep
I ONCE gave up women and alcohol - it was the worst 20 minutes of my life
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From Great Britain

Post #6 made 12 years ago
Niimus, get used to the equip. First, as Mally said.branch out once you feel comfortable with not only the setup but, the process. I would not buy equipment until yo u are sure that you are down with the process.
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From United States of America

Post #7 made 12 years ago
I have looked at this thread so many times, thought on it and re-thought on it and I really think (like the brewers above) that you are missing something really important here Niimus.

Firstly, it's important to let the brewers above know if they have been helpful. I think they have been. You've visited and made other posts on the site since the above posts were made so I am wondering why the above posts have not been acknowledged yet?

What are you still wondering? These brewers are all asking you, "Why are you even thinking of multiple vessing brewing when there is no advantage to you?"

I think you need to get back to them on what your thinking is now.

Sound sensible?
PP
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Post #8 made 12 years ago
Nimus - one thing that has not been covered here is you question regarding volume - as in the calculator exceeds the kettle dimensions. The issue is that the software assumes you have a kettle big enough to handle the grain bill you've entered. The likely solution is to brew a smaller batch or decrease the grain bill. If you want to brew with a stronger ABV beer, use the cooler and press on.

A simple way to calculate mash volume is: Grain x .12 oz + bottling volume + evaporation loss + trub loss. The total mash water volume will be about 2L per lb of grain, which is sufficient to produce a 70% base grain conversion in 60-75 minutes (likely less) - optimum conversion occurs with a mash that is 2.6L per lb of grain.
The Bag Man
www.brewinabag.com

Post #9 made 12 years ago
tulip34 wrote:Nimus - one thing that has not been covered here is you question regarding volume - as in the calculator exceeds the kettle dimensions. The issue is that the software assumes you have a kettle big enough to handle the grain bill you've entered. The likely solution is to brew a smaller batch or decrease the grain bill. If you want to brew with a stronger ABV beer, use the cooler and press on.

A simple way to calculate mash volume is: Grain x .12 oz + bottling volume + evaporation loss + trub loss. The total mash water volume will be about 2L per lb of grain, which is sufficient to produce a 70% base grain conversion in 60-75 minutes (likely less) - optimum conversion occurs with a mash that is 2.6L per lb of grain.
Several things here sorry Tulip,

Firstly, your website is the second one to pinch BIABrewer.info's slogan of, "It's in the bag." This site was founded by the original BIAB pioneers and this site would like to have the time to be able to make and sell bags however all the time it does have has been spent on developing and providing quality information and tools for brewers.

The most time though gets spent on correcting misinformation from other sites.

For example, on your site you have written about "no sparging". Most sites, including premium ones get that wrong. See here for the proper definition of no sparge brewing. By the way we have done actual side by side experiments here on active sparging versus passive sparging (pure, full-volume BIAB) and yes there is no gain in active sparging but we did the experiments.

In the post above, you wrote that the software does not account for kettle size. The BIABacus certainly does. Clear red warnings pop up to warn you if your kettle is too small. In fact another warning pops up if you are starting to get too close to exceeding your kettle volume. (Beersmith2 has a little dot or something if your kettle is too small.)

But the main reason I am writing here is to address your second paragraph. The paragraph starts with, "A simple way to calculate..." The problem is that sentence assumes the brewer will know how much grain they will be needing, how much wort they will evaporate and what their kettle and fermentor trub loss will be. No new brewer knows anything about those things and existing software is very poorly designed. That's why this site spent thousands of hours designing clear terminology and The BIABacus. The BIABacus only needs the new brewer to type in...

1. Their kettle dimensions.
2. The volume of beer they can comfortably fit in their fermentor.
3. The original gravity of the beer.
4. Boil duration

and then all the information they need weight and volume-wise appears. It might take ten or twenty minutes of study to get comfortable with the BIABacus but unlike other software, you won't spend the rest of your life scratching your head on it.

As for the last sentence, all that does is send a mixed message. Proper, pure BIAB is a single vessel, full volume brewing method so a liquor to grain ratio of 2.6 L per pound is irrelevant. (This info is incorrect anyway. The correct info on this is actually 2.5 litres per kilogram and higher or 1.2 qt/lb and higher. Regardless it is not relevant in a BIAB brew.)

Finally I have no idea what you mean by mash volume equalling 2 L per pound. Here, mash volume means the volume taken up by your grain bill and water in the mash which does not work on a ratio.

So, far from simple, that last paragraph of just two sentences is about as confusing as one can get. Take some time to have a look a t The BIABacus and the terminology in it. It will serve you well.

:peace:
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 03 Apr 2014, 04:27, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #10 made 12 years ago
Thanks to everyone for your help - I decided to first try a BIAB with my existing 33L Pot and the results were exceptionally good.

So as you all suggest I will be going just for the Buffalo boiler and leave the Thermos pot.

Check out this post for my first BIAB experience.

Thanks once again for all your advice and support.

Niimus
Last edited by Niimus on 05 Apr 2014, 00:27, edited 1 time in total.
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