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Non-fermentables

Post #1 made 12 years ago
by BabyfaceFinster
Hi guys,

I haven't been on here in a while, but not because of losing faith or giving up. Quite the contrary, I am brewing about twice a month and the BIABacus is my right hand man :salute:

I have hit upon a recipe that raises a question for me. I am making a porter that in addition to the grain bill, also calls for two non-fermentables. Here is the short of the recipe:
mash at 158F for 60 min
8 lbs 2 row
2 lbs munich
1 lb chocolate malt
1 lb crystal 40L
1 lb flaked oats
then during boil
8 oz maltodextrine
4 oz lactose

The OG should be around 1.064. My question is in which section of BIABacus do you list the non-fermentables? They don't ferment out but they do add to the OG, so do they go in section C: the grain bill or somewhere else? They must contribute to calculating out the amount of strike water, correct?

Thanks for any help
Stew

Post #2 made 12 years ago
by majorphill
BabyfaceFinster

What I do is add the non fermentable to section C as normal and then modify its 'fermentability' (if there is such a word) in section Y. Set the FDGB to 0% and the moisture to 0% as well.

That works for me. (Then again, I might just be getting lucky) :thumbs:

If you wanted to use Cane sugar, for instance, you can set the FGDB to 100% and the Mosture to 0%

Regards

Post #3 made 12 years ago
by PistolPatch
Hi there BFF, nice to see you poppping in :peace:.

I like majorphill's answer above :thumbs:.

Section C and Section Y are the best place to deal with sugars or non-fermentables. Putting anything that is added during the boil into into Section C, will stuff up two minor things...

1. Your gravity into Boil - This will be lower than the BIABacus estimates because you won't be adding those 'sugars' until after the boil starts.

2. Your 'Volume Loss from Lauter' - Say if you had a recipe that had a lot of sugars added during the boio or post-boil, if you add themn to Section C, the BIABacus will assume that they are grains and that their weight will retain some liquor. This would be worth worrying about if you were doing a partial but is not worth worrying about in your recipe.

3. Your Attenuation - I can't spend too much time looking at other programs (it always proves a waste of time) but just did a quick look and couldn't find any that deal with this properly. I think the thing to think on is that 12 ozs (0.75 lbs) amongst 13 lbs (5897 grams) is not going to have much bearing on attenuation so I wouldn't even worry about it.

Some Notes on Your Recipe...

Always question the source when you find a recipe. Most are faulted or not don't have enough info on the net.

For example, I have two big problems with the source recipe - a 60 minute mash and the mash temperature. 60 minutes is too short and 158 F (70 C) is too high. If they haven't got these two things right, I am worried that the rest of the recipe might be amateurish?

In Brewing Classic Styles, there are three Porter recipes and none include maltodextrine or lactose so this begs another question, why are they there?

Most styles of beer don't require the addition of sugars or unfermentables so it is always good to question the recipe when you see them. Also check this thread.

:peace:
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 20 Oct 2013, 21:17, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #4 made 12 years ago
by BabyfaceFinster
Hi PP,

Glad to hear from you! Thanks for the feedback, and thank you Majorphil. I will use section Y to make adjustments.

You know, I have the BCS book and have made a few recipes out of there. In particular the Best bitter and the American Wheat. They transferred well into the BIABacus and turned out fine, but nothing that I found very exciting. I have found that when I look around for recipes, I read the BCS version but then find something more intriguing. For example, the German Alt I am brewing today. The BCS recipe looked fine but the Northern Brew supply recipe looked more interesting with the types of malt used. The same thing happened with the porter. I have looked over all 3 porters in BCS several times. The brown porter looked less like a porter and more like a brown ale while the robust porter looked fine. Then I find this recipe from the homebrewtalk.com moderator called Biermuncher. He has quite a following on his recipes which seem tried and true by many people. This porter looked more exciting to me and I decided to trust it due to the number of people that used it and liked it. The difference is I plan on a single mash step and not the multiple step process he lists. I agree the mash time seems short as I have learned from this site that a 90 min assures conversion much more. Others have questioned the 158 temp and lowered it a bit to 156. I don't know the results they have had. All the unfermentables leaves the FG high at around 1.030 and while the OG is high, you end up with a moderate abv and a richer beer.
Here is the whole recipe from Biermuncher for anyone's review:
ALL GRAIN - 5 Gallons
8.00 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM)
2.00 lb Munich Malt - 10L (10.0 SRM)
1.00 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 30L (30.0 SRM)
1.00 lb Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM)
1.00 lb Oats, Flaked (1.0 SRM)

0.50 oz Fuggles [4.52%] (60 min)
0.50 oz Fuggles [4.20%] (2 min)

0.25 tsp Irish Moss (Boil 10.0 min)

1.00 cup Malto-Dextrine (Boil 20.0 min)
4.00 oz Lactose (Boil 15.0 min)

1 Pkgs London Ale (Wyeast Labs #1028)


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Full Body, Batch Sparge
Total Grain Weight: 13.00 lb
Mash In Add 4.06 gal of water at 170.5 F 158.0 F 45 min
Mash Out Add 2.50 gal of water at 206.7 F 175.0 F 15 min

Primary 1 Week (60 Degrees)
Secondary 10 Days (60 Degrees)
Kegged and Force Carbed or Primed and Bottled

So I guess time will tell. I've already ordered the grain bill and will give it a try. If I don't like it, I'll probably go back to BCS robust porter.

I want folks to know that whenever I hear folks talk or post about learning how to BIAB I always suggest they stop by this site for some real education from the folks who know. :peace:

Post #5 made 12 years ago
by BabyfaceFinster
majorphill wrote:BabyfaceFinster

What I do is add the non fermentable to section C as normal and then modify its 'fermentability' (if there is such a word) in section Y. Set the FDGB to 0% and the moisture to 0% as well.

That works for me. (Then again, I might just be getting lucky) :thumbs:

If you wanted to use Cane sugar, for instance, you can set the FGDB to 100% and the Mosture to 0%

Regards
Ok, so just one more question on this topic. I put the maltodextrine and lactose in section C, then went to section Y and set both categories to 0% for both ingredients. When I made the change in Y I expected some change in the grain bill amounts or the amount of strike water but nothing changed at all. The "what you will use" and water amounts remained the same when I made those changes in section Y.

What am I doing wrong?
Thanks
Last edited by BabyfaceFinster on 26 Oct 2013, 09:35, edited 2 times in total.

Post #6 made 12 years ago
by PistolPatch
Sorry BFF, I missed your post two above. That all makes sense to me :peace:. Read this post for the latest on how to convert BCS recipes.

As for things not changing in the BIABacus, post your file up here as it is too hard to explain otherwise I reckon ;).

:peace:
Last edited by PistolPatch on 26 Oct 2013, 11:23, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #7 made 12 years ago
by BabyfaceFinster
Ok, Thanks PP

Here is the file for that Porter. Whether I use section Y or not, the values in C don't seem to change.
Thanks
Black Pearl Porter BIABacus.xls
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Last edited by BabyfaceFinster on 29 Oct 2013, 09:34, edited 2 times in total.

Post #8 made 12 years ago
by PistolPatch
Okay, see how you have put zero and zero beside maltodextrine and lactose in Section Y? You can also see how you have only put that under "The Original 'Grain' Bill" of Section Y. Let's call this Scenario 1.

Scenario 1 - Right side of Section C % will remain constant.

You can actually put anything you like under "The Original 'Grain' Bill" and nothing will change on the right hand side of Section C. Why?

Because the BIABacus will assume that whatever extract potential you use in the original grain bill will also be used in the actual grain bill. If the originator recipe used pale ale malt, then the BIABacus will also assume that you will use pale ale malt with exactly the same potential.

The BIABacus though expects you to know enough to change the extract potential default when sugars or extract is involved.

[Stay with me ;). I know this is confusing at first.]

Just think this through though. If I gave you a recipe from a book and said it was 2500 grams of pale ale malt and 2500 grams of sugar then, in the BIABacus, you would definitely want to do an over-ride in Section Y of the extract potential of the sugar otherwise the BIABacus will just treat your totally sugar-filled sugar the same as the not so sugar-filled grain.

When you make this over-ride in Section Y of the BIABacus under "The Original 'Grain' Bill", the BIABacus will also automatically assume that you will be using the same sugar when you brew the recipe.

...

In normal all-grain situations or even mostly all-grain situations, we don't have to bother with over-rides and finding out the exact extract potential of grains and moisture content etc as the BIABacus auto-estimate works very well and saves a lot of time. A recipe involving say more than 10% by weight in sugar or extract might be worth mucking around with though. Don't get hung up on it ;).

Scenario 2 - Right side of Section C % will change.

Let's say though that I gave you a recipe that said use 5000 grams of pale ale malt but you were an extract brewer and therefore could not use pale ale malt. You would have to substitute the pale ale malt with extract. In such a scenario, you would have to adjust the lower part ("The Actual 'Grain' Bill") of Section Y to get the right numbers.

Try doing this. Get rid of all your numbers in Section Y and then put 100 and 0 beside 2 row malt in Section Y. The weight you need in your actual recipe will fall from 3588 grams to 3057 grams. Why? Because we need less weight in sugar to achieve a specific gravity than we would if we used grain.

Regardless

The BIABacus at this point in time is not great for extract or partial mash recipes. But, it will serve BIAB / all-grain brewers very well in almost every single scenario.

For example, the recipe you are wanting to copy has only 6% in weight of Malto-dextrine and lactose in it. It really isn't worth worrying about mucking around with the numbers on this as they will only change that 6% to about 5%. You definitely should not let this worry you.

;)
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 29 Oct 2013, 21:09, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #9 made 12 years ago
by BabyfaceFinster
Ok PP. Thanks so much. This will helpful if I ever make a recipe with a higher percentage of sugars. I know some larger beers call for higher amounts of pure sugars to "dry" them out a bit.
Regards
Stew
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