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2nd brew questions and recipe conversion

Post #1 made 12 years ago
by matteo35
So I just made my second BIAB batch and I've got a couple questions about it. Also wouldn't mind comments if anyone has them about what I did. So, I made the Northern Brewer Patersbier recipe. The original recipe from the NB website is:

9 lbs belgian pilsner
1 oz Tradition @ 60 min
0.5 oz Saaz @ 60 min
0.5 oz Saaz @ 10 min
Wyeast 3787

So, all of my information is in the link below, but the quick summary is this. I upped the grain bill to 11 lbs (based partly on my first brewing experience). My into kettle gravity came in just about spot on or as near as I can measure. However in the end, I had about 6.25 gallons of wort into the fermenter, with some left over in the kettle. My starting gravity was around 1.045-1.046. All in all I am very pleased.

Now I see in the calculator that there is 0.9 gallons for kettle trub and padding. I filtered the liquid with a nylon mesh as I transferred to the fermenter. After all this, my question is this:

Should I have changed the hop schedule? The NB recipe is for 5 gallons and I feel like I'm going to be around 6 when all is done. The calculator tells me I should be around 24 IBU, which internet searching tells me is about right. I guess in my inexperience I have focused on getting my starting gravity in the right range without adding DME, but possibly neglected the hops in the process.

Also, should I set the kettle trub and buffer to a smaller number? Is it typical to let things settle in the kettle before transferring? What is a number that more experienced brewers use? I used a hop bag, so I only had whatever grain dust made it through my relatively fine bag.
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Last edited by matteo35 on 10 Oct 2013, 23:11, edited 1 time in total.

Post #2 made 12 years ago
by PistolPatch
What lazy bastards matteo! You posted your question 48 hours ago and not one reply :angry:.

You asked lots of good questions as well. I think I see the problem though. The link to the Calculator_Patersbier file seems dodgy - I couldn't download anything. Can you just upload your "calculator" file here?

Also note that "The Calculator" has now been replaced by the "BIABacus".

How confusing is all that!!!

:)
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Post #3 made 12 years ago
by matteo35
Sorry about that. Not used to forums where you can upload directly, most make you use 3rd party sites like mediafire. Anyway, I am familiar with BIABacus a bit, but not until after brew day. File should be accessible now. Thanks.

I have found bits and pieces of answers looking through the forums, but am still curious about it. Based on what I've read, I'm not too worried about what I've done, just trying to learn. My thought is I need to make this beer 3-4 times (if I like it) and kind of trial and error it a bit.

Post #6 made 12 years ago
by PistolPatch
Okay matteo, have had a chance to go through things properly. I think the first thing to do when starting out is have someone check your recipe plan over before brewing. This ensures that you are copying a recipe from a good source and will be following the right numbers to start with. It can be pretty hard to get started on your own but you've done a great job :peace:.

The Original Recipe

There's a few problems with Northern Brewer recipes in that they lack come critical information such end of boil volumes, hop alpha acid percentages and, in this recipe, the yeast fermentation temperature is totally vague. These things are critical and when I see them lacking, I wonder about the overall integrity of the recipe. Anyway, because we have done a bit of prior research on therse recipes before, I am assuming the volume at the end of the boiul after chilling or what we call the Volume of Ambient Wort is 20.83 L (5.5 Gal). This number is very important for scaling a hop bill correctly. For hop alpha acids, I have assumed Hallertau Tradition is 5.8% and Saaz is 4.0%. Fermentation temperature for this style I have no idea on but the range given of 18 - 26 C (64 - 78 F) is unacceptable. At a guess, I would think you would want to be keeping it at the low end at least for the first 10 days.

The other thing I would question in this recipe is the step temperatures. Some of those temps look very odd to me.

The other side to this coin is that you would be surprised at just how great a beer you can produce even if your original instructions aren't that great so don't get to worried about the above. All the reviews of the NB recipe sing its praises so there you go ;).

Your "The Calculator" File

You did a great job on this matteo and that is not easy :salute:. The Calculator is very primitive though (and harder to use) than the BIABacus so I've put the recipe into the BIABacus as well as your actuals as best as I can. This will make things easier in future.

Before I post the file up and make some other comments, can you answer the following?....

Your Actuals

1. Can you let me know your kettle height (am assuming it is a stock pot shape)?

2. The 6.5 gallons End of Boil Volume, was that measured at boiling temperature or after chilling?

3. The file is advised you to use a bit over 10 pounds of grain but you have written 11 pounds in your actuals. What was the reasoning on this?

4. Where did the 70% End of Boil Efficiency number come from?

Later

Once we have those answers, I'll post a BIABacus file up and make a few suggestions for your next brew. You may have seen it written elsewhere here that we can't learn much from a single brew's numbers so we won't spend too much time on that. The BIABacus file will make it much easier for you to record your actuals as well.

Later ;),
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 13 Oct 2013, 16:48, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #7 made 12 years ago
by matteo35
Well, if the calculator is primitive, it's far and away better than what I was doing before. To answer your questions and other comments:

"Fermentation temperature for this style I have no idea on but the range given of 18 - 26 C (64 - 78 F) is unacceptable."
Fermenting in my basement, which is on the lower side and it's fall in the Northeast US. So, fermenting temps were probably around 68 F or so.


"The other thing I would question in this recipe is the step temperatures. Some of those temps look very odd to me."
Didn't do the step mash. I simply mashed at 147 F for 90 minutes. Although I say this loosely, as I left the house to go somewhere and temps dropped a to about 142 F. Brought it back up to 147 and let sit another 20-30 min. I wouldn't normally do this. Just how my brew day went.


1. Can you let me know your kettle height (am assuming it is a stock pot shape)?
I believe it's 19.5 in. I don't have the kettle with me right now as I borrowed it.

2. The 6.5 gallons End of Boil Volume, was that measured at boiling temperature or after chilling?
That was measured hot, but not boiling. I cooled the wort in my fermenting bucket because the pot I borrowed did not fit in my sink. I will not be doing that again as it was not very efficient. I put a nylon strainer over the fermenting bucket and siphoned (high temp tubing) into the fermenting bucket through the strainer. I got about 6.25 g into the bucket and I estimate about a quarter gallon left in the kettle.

3. The file is advised you to use a bit over 10 pounds of grain but you have written 11 pounds in your actuals. What was the reasoning on this?
Well, this was based on my first experience and a few other details. My first BIAB was a big (1.079) porter. I came out pretty low on that when I brewed (1.073) and added DME to make it up. My plan on this was to make sure I ended up on target or over a bit. As it is, I ended up about where I wanted to be. The other point is that my equipment is not optimal. I am borrowing a pot and using a bag that I bought. Neither of them go together. The pot is wider than the bag, so I don't think the grains have quite enough room. I think things would work more smoothly if I get that sorted out, but I'm new at this. Anyway, I figured a little more grain might help make up for some of my inefficiencies.

4. Where did the 70% End of Boil Efficiency number come from?
I calculated the into boil efficiency at about 70%. Pre-boil, I had 8.75 gal of wort at a gravity of 1.038. Anyway, definitely take any of my efficiency calcs or numbers with a grain of salt. I realize I am wading through murky waters there. I've seen your write ups on this subject before, but not until after I made this spreadsheet.

Anyway, got to run. Thanks for your time!

Post #8 made 12 years ago
by PistolPatch
Hi again Mat,

The Calculator is primitive but many of the essential principles behind it form much of the spine of the BIABacus so it has been good to us despite its looks ;). (Can you see how Section C of the BIABacus is basically the Grain Bill sheet of The Calculator?). The Calculator pioneered auto-estimate formulas for things such as evaporation, fermentor and kettle trubs. The BIABacus expands on these intuitive things in a very big way making extremely complex areas of brewing maths, not dealt with in any other software, totally unnecessary to learn. But, if you want to learn that stuff, then it will teach it to you in a manner that matches your growth. There is a lot in it. Anyway...

Glad to see your notes on your fermentation and mashing schedule. Good! Re your other answers...

1. In the attached file, I have used 19.5 inches for your kettle diameter. Change it if you need to.

2. Okay. You'll see in Section L how I have interpreted this.

3. That answer was very helpful. It's quite weird how a small bag can really stuff your kettle efficiency up. When you get a decent size bag, delete the -10% that I have typed into Section X.

4. On a perfect brew, an efficiency reading taken at the start of the boil would be the same as one you took at the end. In reality, it is not uncommon to get a discrepancy of 5% between EIB and EAW (see Section P) due to the difficulties of measuring hot liquids etc. In your case, there is a 10% discrepancy. It happens to me now and then as well so don't be concerned about it. But, if it happened again,I would start asking questions such as , "Are you letting your gravity reading cool before you put your hydrometer in?" etc.

[center]Your Original Questions[/center]

IBU and Trub Allowances

The Calculator and the BIABacus allow for a lot of kettle trub and fermentor trub. This is the safe approach as it usually means that you just get more beer than you planned on. It does not affect your IBU's though. The 'swivel' point for your hop schedule is the end of the boil. What happens to your volume after the end of the boil is of no interest or importance to IBU's. (If there was a big discrepancy between estimated and actual Volume into Fermentor - VIF then you might want to adjust your dry hopping rate but that is all.)

What you found was that you had less kettle trub than estimated and you also expect less fermentor trub. This is fine. The only downside is you scored more beer.

On your next brew, if you like, you can type a "Y" in the box beside 'Hopsock (Y/N)' in Section G. Section X allows even more options but Section G is the one I use and is all I would play with if I were you.

Anyway, I've attached a BIABacus file of your brew. When you download it, save it under two names. When you go to do your next brew, over-write anything that needs to be over-written and post your file up in this thread. This will make it really fast and easy to spot any holes in the plan.

;)
PP
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Last edited by PistolPatch on 16 Oct 2013, 19:42, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #9 made 12 years ago
by matteo35
Thanks a bunch PP! Really appreciate the help. I will try to be more careful on my temps for the hydrometer readings. I will admit that I'm am a bit hasty on such things.

Can't wait to try the beer and I have to say that I am loving the BIAB method and all the help that I've found on this forum. Great method and resource!
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