Did I do this right? (BIABacus)

Post #1 made 12 years ago
Hey there. I found a nice recipe for a christmas inspired IPA, which made me a little curious. I've used it mostly as inspiration and created a similar recipe using Beersmith. Unfortunately I only have the iPad app so I cannot export it. I have a small pot (10L) and am thinking of trying maxi-BIAB next time, so I've tried to set it all up using the BIABacus (and the recipe is in there). Essentially, what I want to do is:
  • - Mash with as much water as possible
    - Remove the bag, put it in a smaller pot (5L) with boiled water
    - Add as much of this sparged water as possible to the main pot
    - Redo the sparging step during the boil to counter evaporation
This way I am hoping to have as much wort as possible at the end of the boil - around 8-9L if possible. I would be very grateful if someone more experienced than myself could have a look at the setup and see if it looks alright. I've done my best and I think it should be right, but I'm not completely certain. Thanks a lot in advance!!
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Last edited by hejseb on 28 Aug 2013, 21:21, edited 2 times in total.

Post #2 made 12 years ago
Welcome hejseb,

That looks like a lot of work to me. So, is 10 L your biggest (little) pot? Your bag may not fit in your 5 L pot and you run the risk of over sparging (causing tannins). Also the mash thickness is real thick (3V brewers love this however, stick a fork in it and it will stay standing). You will have a hard time maintaining a mash temperature for 90 mins. with very little mass.

I would suggest to read the links from this page, called sweet liquor shop ;http://www.biabrewer.info/viewtopic.php ... 375#p32343 where PP is helping ALANEM.

In fact, if you read the discussion between the two of them starting at post # 1396; http://www.biabrewer.info/viewtopic.php ... 375#p32295 through #1413 , you might get inspired to use two bigger pots on the stove to achieve your goal and better results. :)

I know guys make 3 gallon (finished) batches all the time, but they start out with a bigger pot.

We ARE HERE TO HELP YOU not discourage.

As far as the file goes, it looks doable, I reckon...

:peace:
MS
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Post #3 made 12 years ago
After reviewing your plan and looking at the BIABacus I realize that you have a 60 mins. boil time. We all should be going 90 mins., there are heaps of stuff that happens during the boil. I would go 90 mins. and 30 mins. into the boil start with your 60 mins. hop addition.

This is a very good read and PP has convinced me to do 90 mins. boil too mate, so consider this. this link.

There are lots of thinking that wort production is easy, in fact, taking shortcuts, while it's easy is not a good idea to make GOOD BEER.

:peace:
MS
Last edited by Mad_Scientist on 29 Aug 2013, 07:01, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #5 made 12 years ago
Just going to jump in here quickly because MS might be asleep on the other side of the world :).

Coromant, your question is answered in the link MS posted above. See the bit that says 'Stages and Length of Boiling'? But...

Do I understand all the science terms used in that article in that section? No. Does it make sense to me? Yes.

I think some things you have to take on faith. I trust the advice of a commercial kettle manufacturer far more than I would any brewing forum post. There is no downside to boiling for 90 minutes, just a bit more energy cost and time. A 60 minute boil might turn out fine for a lot of brewing water or beer styles but I certainly don't have the knowledge to know which ones. Why not play it safe?

One thing that you don't want to do though is keep adding mashed/sparged wort (sweet liquor) into the boil during the boil at less than 60 minutes. Any sweet liquor should be given at least a 60 minute boil.

;)
PP
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Post #6 made 12 years ago
Mad_Scientist wrote:Welcome hejseb,

That looks like a lot of work to me. So, is 10 L your biggest (little) pot? Your bag may not fit in your 5 L pot and you run the risk of over sparging (causing tannins). Also the mash thickness is real thick (3V brewers love this however, stick a fork in it and it will stay standing). You will have a hard time maintaining a mash temperature for 90 mins. with very little mass.

I would suggest to read the links from this page, called sweet liquor shop ;http://www.biabrewer.info/viewtopic.php ... 375#p32343 where PP is helping ALANEM.

In fact, if you read the discussion between the two of them starting at post # 1396; viewtopic.php?f=5&t=286&start=1375#p32295 through #1413 , you might get inspired to use two bigger pots on the stove to achieve your goal and better results. :)

I know guys make 3 gallon (finished) batches all the time, but they start out with a bigger pot.

We ARE HERE TO HELP YOU not discourage.

As far as the file goes, it looks doable, I reckon...

:peace:
MS
Thanks for the input! Yes, that is my largest pot. I use some DIY insulation, so actually it maintains the mashing temperature extremely well. Didn't drop a single degree for an hour last time. I'll have a look at the post! I'll also change my boiling time to 90 minutes :)
Last edited by hejseb on 29 Aug 2013, 20:16, edited 2 times in total.

Post #7 made 12 years ago
PistolPatch wrote:One thing that you don't want to do though is keep adding mashed/sparged wort (sweet liquor) into the boil during the boil at less than 60 minutes. Any sweet liquor should be given at least a 60 minute boil.
Alright, thanks. So during a 90 minute boil, after 30 minutes I should add (boiling) water rather than sparged water? This would make the use of the BIABacus quite straight-forward, wouldn't it? I was a bit unsure how to enter the addition of sparged water rather than boiling water during the boil, but if I shouldn't be doing that then that part's easier.

Plus, I think I mostly will be doing small batches (less than 5L to fermentation). In that case I could just do a regular BIAB (or so I think it is?), where I mash as usual and rinse water through the bag over the pot once the bag's been taken up to get the desired boiling volume (which then should be volume to fermenter + boil off + chilling loss). In that case, when I'm good with less than 5L, it's easier, as the boiling volume is less than what my pot can take. What I'm trying to get my head wrapped around though is how to increase/keep the volume of the wort to account for evaporation losses in the most efficient and smart way. It's confusing...
Last edited by hejseb on 29 Aug 2013, 20:28, edited 2 times in total.

Post #8 made 12 years ago
hejseb, I'm out of time for today but two things...

Yes, just add water after 60 minutes.

Yes, it is confusing when you are trying to stretch your kettle to the maximum. Everything you do becomes a juggle of time, cost labour and quality. Read the sweet liquor shop posts that MS linked above while you are having a beer. Then grab another beer and read them again. It is difficult and you really need to allow some time to read, absorb and understand the 'juggle'. (You are actually trying to run two of those shops together!)

Oh, and one more thing, when you say, "regular BIAB," a regular (pure) BIAB does not involve any rinsing of the bag. You mash in with all the water you are going to use - that is the whole beauty of proper BIAB. Do a search on the term 'washing machine' to get your head around that one ;). Proper BIAB has no downside. The sweet liquor shop posts will also help you understand this.

:peace:
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 29 Aug 2013, 20:48, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #9 made 12 years ago
Hi again,

I've now read the Sweet Liquor Shop posts - well explained, and it works just as I imagined it did. The part that makes it real confusing to me is how dilution affects the hop utilization. Say I continuously dilute the wort throughout the boil to compensate for evaporation - does this mean I should use more hops? Less? What's the IBU?

My boil off is about 2.5 L per hour. In a 90 minute boil, the hop utilization is unaffected by dilution within the first 30 minutes with a 60 minute hop schedule. I'm not sure how much I can fill the pot exactly, but say I can have 9.5 L boiling. That means I'll have 7 L when the boil is finished. That is fine with me. That is achieved without any dilution post-hop additions, which makes it easier to calculate IBUs, I imagine. So then the issue is just to get the right amount of malt so that after a 30 minute boil the undiluted gravity is high enough such that dilution up to 9.5 L yields the desired gravity. And that should be achievable. At least with some experience...

EDIT: What does "3V" mean?

Post #10 made 12 years ago
I have been pondering over to how to do a better (full volume) mash on-the-cheap. It's my thinking outside the box, feasibility unknown :dunno: . PP can shot me later. :lol:

Buy a white 19 L (#2 plastic) bucket and lid to mash in.
Hold back 4 L of water from the initial mash, maybe 5 L.
Add 1 L at a time as needed, at proper temperature to maintain the mash temperature you want.
- maybe at 15, 30, 45 and 60 mins.

At the end you will have 16.71 L of mash volume and 13.46 L of VIK.
Boil in your two pots.
One pot gets the bitter hops and the other finishing hops.

See changes in Sections B, X and Y.
BIABacus PR1.3 - hejseb (2).xls
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Last edited by Mad_Scientist on 31 Aug 2013, 08:05, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #11 made 12 years ago
hejseb wrote!
EDIT: What does "3V" mean?
Three Vessel. In older and less enlightened times we had to use three pots instead on one. I know it sounds crazy! But people still do it!

At the bottom of this page I have a "test biab movie" that has some video of 3V with something called a mash tun too! Good laughs http://www.stempski.com/biab.php
Last edited by BobBrews on 31 Aug 2013, 20:36, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #12 made 12 years ago
Apologies hejseb, I see you directed some questions at me and I missed them. Been a bit busy but let's see if we can get some of them knocked off...

You asked. what does 3V mean? 3V is short for three vessel all-grain brewing. In other words,it refers to the traditional way of all-graining which involves an active sparge (batch or fly sparge). This is in contrast to BIAB, which in its pure form, means full-volume mashing in a single vessel.

...

You are worrying about getting the right amount of malt. Forget that. The BIABacus does that for you. It makes no difference whether you add your dilution water just before the boil, during it, or at the end. The BIABacus takes that into account. Remember once you pull that bag, no 'sugar' is being added or subtracted (unless you physically add extract etc) to the boil, it just becomes more concentrated as the boil (read evaporation) progresses.

Also do not get carried away with the hop estimate formulas. All hop estimation formulas have basic errors. The one we use, Tinseth, has the least. For example, the gravity of the boil matters far less than was once thought to hop utilisation. Also 0 minute hop additions do add bitterness. So, don't get hung up on this. Unless you are diluting to a ridiculous degree (which the BIABacus won't let you do) you should be in the ballpark if you just use what the BIABacus tells you to use.
Mad_Scientist wrote:I have been pondering over to how to do a better (full volume) mash on-the-cheap. It's my thinking outside the box, feasibility unknown :dunno: . PP can shoot me later. :lol:

Buy a white 19 L (#2 plastic) bucket...
It took me a little while to understand what you meant above Richard but I have it now. Very clever thinking mate ;) - one bucket, one bag, utilising of the two small kettles :clap:.

In case everyone else is as slow as me, you might have to write this out in more detail, step by step. I haven't followed the kettle sizes on hand but the detail might have to stat with something like....

1. Using your x L kettle and y L kettle, bring z L to strike temperature.
2. Pour into food-grade plastic bucket. Add bag. Pour in grain. Stir, cover with lid.
3. If temperature of mash in plastic bucket drops, add up to 4 L of boiling water over 90 minutes.
4. If any of the 4 L above is left at the end of 90 minutes, add it to the white bucket and then pull/squeeze the bag.
5. Pour the collected wort into your two kettles and bring to boil.
etc...

The bit about the hops is hard. To play it safe though, I would probably weigh out the hops so that all additions were split appropriately between the kettles. This would avoid playing with fire.

Great idea Richard. I almost missed your post too. Phew!

Other Points

Josh, in Richard's plan, the hold-back water is being reserved to use to keep the mash temperature constant. In other words, boil it and add a little bit when the mash temp drops. Remember that sparging is taboo (unnecessary) if you can fit all your water into the kettle before mashing out. Richard is doing this so all is good :champ:.

hesjeb, make sure you watch BobBrew's video. A few laughs but also shows a bit of the contrast between 3V and BIAB.

:peace:
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 08 Sep 2013, 16:17, edited 2 times in total.
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