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BIABacus Check

Post #1 made 12 years ago
by darren131
Hi team,

The next beer I'm going to attempt is this beauty: http://yeastieboys.tumblr.com/post/5220" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... ipa-recipe

I've added in all the bits to the BIABacus and wondering if I've done it correctly. Would you smarter/more experienced provide any assistance or insight (especially around the hop additions).

Thanks in advance!
Darren
BIABacus PR1.3 - Digital IPA-2.xls
[ADMIN NOTE: Please see this post.]
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Last edited by darren131 on 15 Jul 2013, 08:21, edited 2 times in total.

Post #2 made 12 years ago
by PistolPatch
Howdy Darren and congratulations on your first brew which I saw in another thread. It looks like majorphil gave you a great answer there.

On this file, you have done a great job :thumbs: :clap: :champ:

BUT!!!

Unfortunately, as always, there is still room for a large amount of error on the hop bill. I see the way you have approached it and that is probably as good as any other way however, you may not be aware that your hop bill could be quite faulted.

If you search for posts I have made here that include the terms 'Rager, Garetz and Tinseth' you will find what I am worried about.

:peace:
PP
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Post #3 made 12 years ago
by darren131
Thanks for the reply PP.

Most of what I've read in your previous posts is a little over my head at this stage so I guess the only thing to do is try and it hope it doesn't end up too rough :-/

In the original recipe they make reference to xg/L... is it correct to assume that in my case I could (instead of using the IBU method) simply use the original recipe's calculations? i.e. 0.8g/L Pacifica for my 23L batch would be (0.8*23) 18.4g in total? (Using the IBU method in my original BIABacus it's 23.4—not a MASSIVE jump, bit still a change). I guess my question is which is more correct? And a secondary question relates to the Pacific Jade hop which is listed as n.ng/L* (*first addition of hops, at 60min, will depend on your own brewhouse utilisation). What does that mean and how would I work that out?

Any tips or advice for a beginner would be greatly appreciated—and thanks again for your encouraging reply :)
Last edited by darren131 on 16 Jul 2013, 04:48, edited 2 times in total.

Post #4 made 12 years ago
by Mad_Scientist
Make sure you put the aa% of your hops in the BIABacus and not from the web. It looks good to me also, regarding the hops.

The perceived IBU's can be 20% different from my beers with the same recipe and I can't tell between them.

Brew it and find out, you can always tweak.
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Post #5 made 12 years ago
by PistolPatch
Dareen, most of the over your head stuff will be detailed explanations of errors or problems caused by recipe sites and/or programs. Don't worry about trying to understand them in full. In the hop area, two main problems occur and I'll summarise them...

1. Hop formulas are meant to be based on the volume at the end of the boil once it has cooled (we'll call it, 'Volume of Ambient Wort' or VAW) but some programs mistakenly use Volume into Fermentor (VIF) so their bitterness estimates are quite flawed. Thousands of recipes exist with this flaw.

2. On top of the above, three main bitterness estimate formulas exist but they can give wildly different estimates on exactly the same recipe. Unless you know what formula was used, the bitterness estimate is not of that much value when trying to scale a hop bill.

In the recipe you are trying to copy, the first problem we have is that when it says grams per litre, we can only hope they mean litres of ambient wort but we don't really know.But, hold on,it gets worse... they have given zero hints as to what volume the recipe is designed for. (Usually there is at least some hint.)

Secondly, we don't know what hop bitterness formula was used and what program therefore we don't know how good/accurate/useful the estimate can be to us.

Thirdly, as you mentioned, they give no weight for the bittering hops.

[EDIT: THis next bit is wrong. See next post.]

Now that I have looked at the recipe more, this recipe's hop bill is actually impossible to interpret. For example, who is to say that the first hop addition does not account for 76 out of 77 IBU's? Or maybe it only accounts for 1? Obviously it will be somewhere in between but who knows were? There is absolutely no way to tell.

Nearly all recipes on the net are severely flawed just like this one unfortunately.

You have done a great job though on trying to make some sense of it. Unless you can contact the original author and get more information, no matter what you do, you will be flying completely blind.

:dunno:
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 16 Jul 2013, 19:03, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #6 made 12 years ago
by PistolPatch
Darren, I buggered up the last half of the post above sorry. Brain's not working thanks to too much work and not enough sleep.

You are on the right track of multiplying the grams per litre by the litres you will be making but, do not multiply them by 23 as that is not how much wort you are making. Look in Section K at EOBV-A. (This is the same as the VAW I mentioned in the last post). In your file it says 26.83 L. That is how much wort you are making.

So you need to multiply all the grams per litre by 26.83. I have done this in the attached BIABacus file. You will see in Section D I got rid of the 77 IBU's on the second line and instead typed 26.83 on the first line. I then went through all the hop additions (except the first one) and multiplied them by 26.83. I then changed the grams of the first hop addition until the IBU's on the left hand side equalled 77.

I'm going to have a few day's break but I hope the above makes sense. Sorry I didn't get this one right quicker roll:.

:peace:
PP

P.S. We still have the problem of not really knowing how Yeastie Boy's arrived at 77 IBU's (did they measure it with instruments or estimate it with a formula?) but this is as close as we are going to get. Don't worry about the hop utilisation thing you were asking about. Without scientific instruments, it is impossible for us homebrewers to determine so we just have to stick with our very primitive hop bitterness formulas.
BIABacus PR1.3 - Digital IPA- Scaled.xls
[ADMIN NOTE: Please see this post.]
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Last edited by PistolPatch on 17 Jul 2013, 01:53, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #7 made 12 years ago
by Hints
Avoid using the "%" sign when inputting percentages in the Grams/Ratios column of Section C. Once inputted, they cannot be removed without unprotecting the file. Below is the file with the percentage sign removed. This file can now be used by any brewer by entering their kettle height dimensions into Section B.

It would also be most advisable to change the mash and boil times to 90 minutes.

[Please note that Hints does not reply to direct questions.]
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Last edited by Hints on 17 Jul 2013, 07:53, edited 2 times in total.

Post #8 made 12 years ago
by darren131
Wicked-awesome! Thanks for the help with this, PP. Learning a lot in this little thread... Will keep this thread updated with the outcome of the beer. I'll try to take photos of the brewing process, too :)

Post #10 made 12 years ago
by Mad_Scientist
Nice set of Flickr photos.

PP did a good job helping you on the hops.

Did you sprinkle two packets of US-05? Consider dehydrating next time, details to follow, if interested.
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Post #12 made 12 years ago
by PistolPatch
Not sure if I did good job initially MS :P.

...

Darren, congratulations and thanks for posting back here - the actuals are always much more interesting than the estimates :). For example, you scored 1.064 compared to an estimated 1.066 but I'm not sure what volume you scored. Just post your BIABacus file up if you took some measurements as they are always heaps interesting.

I shouldn't even be asking this because, on a home brewing scale, 1.064 is the same as 1.066 - we really can't measure as accurately as we think we can.

One more thing, can you tell me what that yellow thing is in the last two pics? That's got me buggered :),

PP
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Post #13 made 12 years ago
by darren131
I clearly need to take more measurements. I need to get a long ruler so I can accurately take volume measurements. The only measurements I took were gravity readings:
http://www.brewtoad.com/recipes/digital ... ogs/100107

When I have some time I'll load in measurements to BIABacus.

As for the last two photos:
http://flic.kr/p/fhcUkD <- the yellow thing is the wort syphoning into the fermenter...
http://flic.kr/p/fhs8CW <- the yellow thing is the hose running to my chiller...

Post #15 made 12 years ago
by PistolPatch
Never seen that BrewToad site before Darren. Unfortunately it looks like it has the same terminology problems we always talk about here. (See the Does this recipe have integrity? Can I copy it? thread for more info on this.)

Thanks for explaining the yellow hoses :peace:. We never see yellow hoses here in Ozland. I'm always interested in hoses as they can cause a lot of off-flavours, some even at cool temperatures. (We've all had water from a garden hose that doesn't taste quite right :argh:.) I trust yours are all good - maybe smell them just to make sure :think:.

On the measurement bit, taking more measurements can speed up the learning process of how fast you learn how single measurements can wander from your plan and then come back to your plan :). Personally I think it is good to go through this process. If you want to do this, take...

1. A pre-boil gravity and volume reading - cool the gravity reading.
2. A Kettle to Fermentor Loss (KFL) reading - the crap you leave in your kettle.
3. A Volume into Fermentor (VIF) reading.
4. A gravity reading at the end of the boil - cool the gravity reading..

(There are many other ways you can do the above but these four things will t least allow you one double-check of measurements.)

Oh, and on the long ruler bit, if your kettle sits on a level surface (mine does not) consider using the headspace measurements in the BIABacus instead of the depth ones. I'd use them if I could.

:peace:
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 01 Aug 2013, 20:01, edited 2 times in total.
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