joshua, I obviously got that from Pat's post in this thread because of PP's posted link I saw this morning. I'll plug my numbers in PR1.3 as soon as possible, but I'm at work now. Thanks...

Pat wrote: As for you joshua, I don't know if PP has seen that post you linked but I certainly did. That's a year's ban for you and Bob Brews

OUCH !!!


I'm sorry Pat for wasting your time. My bad

brewdave wrote:Just wanted to pop in and say a belated thanks to Yeasty and Mally for having a look over my Gwinness recipe a few pages back.

Taking your advice I altered my VIF down to 19 litres, did 2 x 5 litre sparges and added 4 litres of water to the fermentor.

A taste from the trial jar after taking the F.G. promises a satisfactory result, even my wife (very hard to please) said it tasted great!
So just waiting for it to condition for a few weeks, hopefully ready for St Paddys day

Think I may try an Old Hooky next..

No worries Dave, thanks for the thanks glad it all went ok.

You may not believe this, but I’ve been sitting here playing with BIABacus, and I’m having fun. It is something that I can slot into my leisure time after all. It’s a great toy!

I’m putting in my batch 12. But I was wondering if I can put the 12 Free Range mash in? I know I’m an odd ball experimentalist, and probably the only one that does that, but I’m just trying to outdo you MS . For the “free range mash” I don’t insulate the mash and the last time the temperature dropped from 156f to 146f.

I’m only just getting started here. Would someone be able to complete filling it in for me, with as many sections as possible completed from the information below. I would be off and away I’m sure and would know what I need to fill in, if someone would do that for me. I had a lot of stuff filled in, but I took it out from the attached, just in case it was wrong. If the FRM version is not possible. The insulated mash version also detailed below would be fine.

Thanks very much. This would really kick start me if someone would do that, as I could figure out what had been done from the completed spreadsheet and the info below. It’s a recipe that I invented so it might be problematic (that’s in my nature). I don’t like a lot of carbonation and usually just leave the CO2 hooked to the keg at 30 PSI for 24 hours to carbonate.

I posted my recipe before #47 on this thread viewtopic.php?f=41&p=26812#p26812

GuingesRock wrote:I just kegged the Batch 12 FRM (free range mash, no blanket) and I have the final SG. It is 1011. The final SG for its comparison Batch 12, insulated mash was 1012. Not much difference. Maybe slightly better efficiency with the non-insulated Batch 12 FRM.

12 - initial mash temp (after stirring in grain) was 156 F and dropped to 152F
12 FRM - initial mash temp was 156F and dropped to 146F

12 - pre-boil SG was 1046
12 FRM - pre-boil SG was 1046!!!!!! The beer tasted great and I stopped using the jacket.

12 - post boil SG was 1056
12 FRM - post boil SG was 1055

12 - final SG was 1012
12FRM - final SG 1011


The initial taste of batch 12 FRM is good, not sure how it compares to the initial taste of batch 12 as that was more than 10 days ago. I’ll drink 12FRM for 10-14 days, see how it matures and let you know.

Batch 12 is an AG BIAB SMaSH IPA with hop bursting

Batch 12 was made as follows in this pot
1. Nine gallons of water brought to 158.7F on the kitchen hob.
2. 12lbs crushed Marris Otter two row (has quite an earthy taste to it that becomes addictive after a few glasses) stirred in to the BIAB bag. Temperature came down to 155 after a lot of stirring.
3. Mash left for 80 mins without stirring, heavily insulated. The recent 12RFM was not insulated.
4. Temperature raised to 168F, for mash out, stirring.
5. Wort drained with a tube to minimize oxidation of hot wort, from the ball valve on the BIAB pot, into a smaller (9 gallon) boiling kettle with a ball valve and a bazooka screen on the inside to keep the leaf hops out of the keg at kegging time.
6. Boiled for 1 hour with lid off
7. Single 15 minute hop addition of 6 oz dried Cascade leaf hops added 15 mins before the end of the boil.
8. Cooled immediately to 26C at the end of the hour with a wort chiller, to preserve the flavours from the hop bursting.
9. 2 pkts of US-05 dried yeast sprinkled on the surface, and lid (sanitised in the oven) placed on top. I ferment right in the brew kettle (something I researched and went for)
10. Half an hour later whisked with a large whisk, sanitised in a bucket of starsan, to aerate the wort a bit
11. Placed in a room to ferment at 20C for 10 days
12. Kegged right from the ball valve on the kettle with a Starsaned tube.
13. Final volume 1 corny keg plus one 1.6 L jug to put in the fridge and quite a bit of trub waste from the leaf hops

GR, I plugged in two numbers in section B and C. I did the guessing game on B.

~richard

Thanks MS, just noticed I put the boil time in wrong, should be 60 mins

Hi Paudle,

What problems are you seeing?
I had a quick look at it for you, and noticed your recipe percentages only add up to 99, but i wouldn't have thought that would make a huge difference.

[EDIT1: Was going to work backwards through this thread again to try and get up to date quickly. Didn't realise that the below would take as long as it did.]

I reckon Paudle's done a great job too mally. (The 99% thing in the .pdf file will simply be due to rounding errors). He is probably worried about colour and the IBU's. [EDIT2: Just finished the below and I am worried about them too!]

I'm going to write my thought processes down as it's probably not a bad example recipe in which to do so...

EOBV-A (30 US Beer Barrels or More?)

The recipe is for 30 bbl which I assume, in this recipe, means, "US beer barrels". 1 US bbl is, I think, 117 L or 31 US gal. So 30 of them is 3510 Litres which is exactly what Paudle has written.

But, does jesterking mean an EOBV-A of 30 bbl or a VIP of 30 bbl? I think but don't know for sure, that commercial breweries mean VIP when they say this.

The other hint in this area that we have here is, thanks to Paudle going to all the trouble of researching the EBC's of the malts used which were not given in the original recipe, we see that the colour is reading higher than on the pdf. This helps confirm my suspicion that the 30 bbl refers to VIP not EOBV-A.

They have a "brewhouse efficiency" figure of 85%. We don't know if they mean EIK, EIF or even efficiency into packaging. Like home brewers, even professional brewers are not clear on what this term means and use it differently. So, what I'm going to do here is set the EIK in section X to 85% and both KFL and FPL top 0. Then I'm going to play with VIF in Section B until I see the grain weights on the left and right of Section C balance.

The number that gets both sides matching is about 3915 L. This is the number I would use for EOBV-A in Section D.

This EOBV-A I am choosing might be wrong...

There are many reasons why the number I have calculated above might be wrong. Here are the main reasons why I think it is the best guess we can make. Have a look at this file first. 1. In this file, I have deleted the two zeros I had in Section X for KFL and FPL. The BIABAcus is now auto-estimating those trub losses and you'll see that the predicted EOBV-A in Section D is now close to the 3915 I have chosen.

2. The colour is still higher than that in the /pdf file. If I wanted to get this to match, I would have to put in a much higher EOBV-A figure in Section D and I really can't see a commercial operation having the trub losses that getting those numbers to balance would require. I also don't know the specs of their grain and this could easilly effect the colour forumla by 10%. I also don't know if the colour formula they are using is correct. For example, some software mistakenly uses the pre-boil volume in their calculations instead of EOBV-A. That would account for another error of about 10%.

The Hop Bill

There is a big difference between the .pdf and The BIABacus IBU's. I don't really know if I have any answers here...

For a start, I'm not sure what they mean by a 60EOB addition? Maybe it is just as Paudle has written it - a 60 minute addition?

For the whirlpool hops, Paudle has written those as a 90 minute addition. I like his logic as whirlpool hops do add bitterness although the hop estimate formulas we all use tell us they don't. Paudle's change here still puts us short though.

The other things to consider are...

1. Once again, an incorrect hop formula could be being used.
2. Maybe they haven't used a hop estimate formula at all? Maybe the 50 IBU's in the report comes from testing? Who knows?
3. It is said that large kettles get better utilisation than small kettles however I suspect it has much more to do with the kettle shape than its volume.

I'm definitely not very confident in the hop bill. The discrepancy is just too high???

What to do now?

We could start making all sorts of justifications now and start fudging numbers but that would be a big error and is how original recipes quickly get distorted by other brewers.

Usually I would ditch a recipe at this point unless I had the opportunity to directly question the original author. Maybe you have this opportunity Paudle?

You could try writing to them and saying you are having problems with the IBUs. Ask them if the IBU's in the recipe are estimates or actuals. If an estimate, what formula are they using and are they adjusting the utilisation used in the standard formula?

It's hard to know what to write to them without sitting down and carefully thinking it through. A few short questions would be best initially so don't ask me to write that!


PP

GR,

I'm going to be quick here as I actually just lost everything I had written in this post which has taken all the time since posting the post to Paudle. I'm pretty cranky at myself that I still am leaving others unanswered.

Anyway, good to see you finally had a crack at the BIABacus. You'll need to study some stuff though and I will get to that.

Richard has filled in some critical cells in your sheet and I have done a few more and corrected the boil time. There is only one more critical cell left to complete and that is the AA% of your Cascade hops in Section D. When you type a number in there you will see the right hand side of Section D populate. You will need to find or guess that AA% value.

The main question I would have in your position is where did I get the 23.92 L EOBV-A number I typed in at the top of Section D?

Any brewer that wants to seriously understand recipes must educate themselves in understanding just how how important this number is. There is not much written on the value of this number but without it a recipe nearly always lacks integrity. BIABrewer is probably the only place at present you will be able to learn anything[/b] about EOBV-A.

It will take you and any other reader probably at least 20-30 mins of searching EOBV-A on BIABrewer.info to get familiar with what this number is all about. There is no one single post that has been written here as yet that consolidates that information and it will be one of the most difficult help threads to write well. So, just do some reading for now.

In this case, you are the original author of the recipe and did not provide an EOBV-A to us. This is normal in our current home brewing world. So, I simply used the 23.92 L that you see in Section K. There's nothing else I could do and that will be fine.

Finally, regarding your free range mash thing. The value in the previous files (66 C or 150.8 F) does not agree with any of the temps in your post or have you missed over-writing this? The way I would handle that is simply put in whatever your initial mash temp was and then in Section I make a note along the lines of, "Mash temp dropped 10 F over 90 minutes." There is no more info that needs to be conveyed there.

I have done this in the file below although you have two different mash scenarios in your post. I just picked one.

I have also saved the file in a manner that gives everyone a bit more info. This is something we will have to look into more.

Here you go...I know that you think the time I and others spend on this thread is a waste of time but this thread never wastes our time. The individual questions and answers here cost a lot of time but they also tell us a lot.

Nearly all those who ask questions here read carefully and then act on the advice given so that's a very good sign. Trying to make the advice generic and simple is very difficult but is something I think we are getting close to.

So, all is good ,
PP

That's great PP. Thanks ever so much. I will look at all of that in detail over the weekend.

Still working backwards...

GR: Good stuff!

mtate: Can you give a bit more detail on this?... "I tried to copy and paste from BIABacus but for some reason it will not let me so I will attach the file to this post."

As for the actual numbers you scored, don't worry about that too much, especially on your first brew. When you get the chance, post your actuals file up as it will only take two seconds to check for any obvious error and we can talk about whether you should or shouldn't have used the pre-pitching corrections section. Sometimes it is correct to but more often than not, it can be a mistake. (On a quick read, I am guessing you did a short mash and I think that will be the cause of your lower OG).

cazadoro: Finally! So sorry it has taken so long to get back to you. I'll send you a PM so as you know I have posted...

Thanks for your last post. It tells me clearly that you got everything sorted except for the following two things...

"The BIABacus will 'guess' that you are using percentages and a red warning will pop up when you have finished typing in your grain bill." I started from scratch with a new copy of the BIABacus and this time I didn't type "75%, or .75". I don't know how it was reformatted in the first place, but I couldn't change it back either. I think what happened is I typed "75" in first but it did what you can see in the sheet attached. For some reason it doesn't carry through the 75% it turns it into 71.4%??

What happened here is that your original percentages aren't percentages... 75 + 25 + 5 equals 105. So, there is something wrong in the original grain bill. Fix that and the left and right will match.

For the chilling section I plan on doing a no chill, but after a 10 minute Whirlpool. Hence the "Chilling Method" would not begin until -10mins. If this is wrong please let me know and I will fix it.

The -10 is neither right nor wrong however I'd prefer a convention where we see us all posting positive minutes rather than negative ones. I think it is just easier and it can't be misinterpreted as a chill cannot start before the boil ends. So, pretend that your chilling clock starts at flame-out.

This also works in with pitching, conditioning etc. For example, you wouldn't say that you conditioned for -14 days. Or that you pitched at -2 hours. If we stick with this logic there should be no need for any negative numbers which is probably best. Does that make a bit of sense?

I seem to remember there was one other thing worrying me...

...Just had another look at your file, post etc and there was! I don't think you really can or should start a whirlpool at flame-out as there is too much convection in the kettle. The convection causes any whirlpool to collapse.

Yep, that was definitely my main worry and every answer I can think of has an exception except for this one... If you can use a hop-sock, then you should have no need to whirlpool. Just let things settle for 15 minutes and then transfer.

I really need to learn more about why commercial or micro brewers whirlpool and what happens with any hops they add at this point. So far, the only question I have asked them is, "How soon after the boil do you start chilling?" I have answers ranging so far from five to forty minutes .

You can see why I haven't bothered asking about whirlpooling yet .

I've got about 6 pro brewers I can ask. Maybe I'll send them a group email and see what they come up with?


PP

metalhophead wrote:I'm wondering if you can tell me where I went wrong or if the biabicus is a better estimator of final volume.

I've never used Beersmith with intent so I don't know how accurate it is but BIABacus is pretty much rock solid for estimating your final volume. Leave the defaults as-is for the first couple of brews.

metalhophead wrote:I also am wondering if its necessary to stir the mash while holding the temperature. Is it ok to just let it be or should I stir it ever 20 minutes or so.

I think you will find a variety of answers to this question. I mash in, cover the kettle and open it again after 90 minutes. That said, the last couple of brews I opened the kettle at 30 and 60 minutes to get a gravity sample and temperature reading and I did stir during those occasions.

metalhophead,

What is the advantage to a 90 min mash as opposed to a 60 minute one?

Mostly the longer boil drives off the DMS precursors. (DiMethyl Sulfide which contributes a cooked cabbage or corn-like flavor to the beer) For Pilsner and other light bodied beers it is necessary. The better more highly modified grains has helped to reduce the problem but not eliminate it? It is not a must for dark beers but for a Mia Bock or Oktoberfest it helps.

[EDIT: Just saw Bob's post above re the boil whereas you were asking about the mash. He is right though . As a general rule, always boil for 90 minutes. I'll address the mash bit at some stage below.]

metalhophead wrote:I used beersmith to scale down the recipe.

Welcome to the forum Fred ,

It's getting late on my side of the world so I'll race along...

There's a major problem in BeerSmith when it comes to scaling. I wrote a very long post on the BeerSmith2 Beta site showing how there were 7 different ways that any user could easily think they were scaling a recipe but only two of those ways ended in a correct result. You have probably just pressed a wrong button.

It is a very hard program to drive and there are other errors. Nearly all 'real' brewing software is like this. They are not what we would call safe. All BIAB figures used in BeerSmith originate from this site and as far as I know, this will continue. This does not mean that the program can keep the raw numbers safe.

My personal opinion is that, eventually, all software will match the standards on this site. We produce the raw data and the raw thinking here, in many areas of brewing and, hopefully, others will eventually adopt it and use it well.

If you post your .bsm file up here, I can check it and probably find all the errors and these will not be your fault. It would take you and me several hours to come up with a poor end result. I would write for a few hours and you would have to read and absorb and study what I have written for probably five hours. Who has that time?

Or, if you post your .bsm file up here, we will ask some questions and put it into The BIABacus as it will make things very fast for you and also propel you into levels of learning that you will not be able to get using any other tools currently available.

So, let's do that.

Your post also relates to a lot of other things that this site is at the forefront of. For example your mash time question is one we are actively exploring here. See this post.

As to checking the temperature of your mash and stirring it, there is no downside to doing this at all. I still do it. It is a very safe practice. Every time you pay attention to your brew, it teaches you something. Is it necessary to do it? Well, I don't know. Does anyone? I've been all-graining for about 7 years I think. There is so much I don't know about brewing that I am uncomfortable letting a mash sit unattended. I prefer to eliminate that variable.

It could be correct though that leaving a mash unattended produces a better beer. No one really knows unless they can do side by side brews of the same recipe at least a few times.

Just bear that in mind.

Anyway, let's see your .bsm file and we can work from there.


PP

metalhophead,

No, you didn't screw up. Some people just always boil 90 minutes (PP, a radical) out of habit. I rarely boil 90 minutes unless it's in the winter when I brew lagers. Malty beers like 90 but my hoppy beers don't! 60 minutes is fine for most ales. If you use propane the cost of a extra 30 minutes of propane will add up!

90 minutes mash is OK if you want it. Sometimes it may be necessary if you have a large mash or a lot of slow to convert grains.

If you have a recipe with ......
Glucan Rest: 112° F for 20 minutes
Protein Rest: 122° F for 20 minutes
Beta Sacch’ Rest: 149° F for 45 minutes
Alpha Sacch’ Rest: 160 F for 30 minutes
Mashout: 170° F for 10 minutes

You can really have a extended mash! It doesn't hurt

metalhophead,
I told you that you were going to get different answers . Yes, I mash 90 mins because I it increases my efficiency.

*Most people in the know* (don't ask me to define or quantify them) reckon that you should boil Pilsner malt for 90 mins to drive of any possible DMS whatsisnames and I'm sheepishly following the flock - one day when I feel that I've got the basic under control I might start questioning this wisdom.
Oh, completely off topic: - I've heard somewhere that some pilsners are slow boiled/simmered for 3 hours!

Let us know how your first brew turned out and please shout if you need help with the BIABacus for your next brew.

lambert

MetalHopHead,

Sorry for the long Delay...."My gravity was 1.054" and "only finished with 3.2 gallons".

Your plan was for "Post Boil Volume: 2.87 gal" and "Estimated OG: 1.062 SG"

If you consider that Your Planed Gravity will be Mutiplied by the differnece in the your "Final volume" by the Planned "post boil volume"....Or (2.87/3.2) * ((1.062 -1)*1000) equals 55 or 1.055.

What I is saying is the MASH was fine!!! The high "Final volume" was your Problem.

You can start your "dough in" with less water!!
Maybe 1 quart less!!???

Thanks PP

I’ve used the Biabacus you sent me as my template to design my FWH version of Batch 12 FRM.

I’m making it this weekend. I bumped up the hops as we wanted more, and I increased the grain a bit and SG.

I entered the FWH as a 60 min boil addition as from my research FWH produces about the same IBU’s as a 60 minute boil, but the bitterness is supposed to have a different character with flavour benefits.

I feel comfortable using Biabacus for the brew. Please let me know if I have made any mistakes.

..trying to figure out how to change pellet to leaf hops for the FWH and 10 min additions