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Pimping the technique on a German site.

Post #1 made 16 years ago
by EoinMag
Hi guys, I've signed up for a German site www.hobbybrauer.de (all German) and I've posted about the BIAB technique to see if they are interested and what they think. There appears to be a new one vessel decoctions technique being discussed there so I'll attempt to get a handle on what they are doing and hope to eventually be able to bring it to an English speaking audience here as time progresses.
I'm a fluent German speaker, if not so fluent writer, but I'm having to relearn the language from a brewers perspective as there is a lot of technical terminology that is just different, so it's a new learning experience for me, but it can only make my German better ;)

I'll keep you updated and as said I'm keeping a close eye on this technique as I'm gonna do a pils shortly myself and was dreading the decoction part using one vessel and my small secondary pots and this looks like just the ticket.

Eoin
http://beernvictuals.blogspot.com/ My blog, If you like what you read post a comment on the blog comments section thanks, BIAB post coming soon.

Post #3 made 16 years ago
by EoinMag
jmbingham wrote:Cool keep us posted, took german for six weeks in high school before they canceled the class :(

I lived there for the best part of ten years, hence my love of all things beer. :)
Last edited by EoinMag on 28 Jul 2010, 17:47, edited 6 times in total.
http://beernvictuals.blogspot.com/ My blog, If you like what you read post a comment on the blog comments section thanks, BIAB post coming soon.

Post #4 made 16 years ago
by SacSoul
Thanks EoinMag. I can't wait to hear about this decoction method!
Arrogant Bastard Ale: "...Perhaps you think multi-million dollar ad campaigns make a beer taste better. Perhaps you're mouthing your words as you read this."

Post #5 made 16 years ago
by hashie
My knowledge of the German language is limited to what I learnt in year 8 at high school (and that was a long time ago!).

I look forward to seeing what you can learn EoinMag.
"It's beer Jim, but not as we know it."

Post #7 made 16 years ago
by EoinMag
PistolPatch wrote:Just read your Decoction like process for pilsners etc. Thanks for posting that Eoin.

Will look forward to hearing what response BIAB gets on hobbybrauer.

Cheers,
PP

So far, it looks like a German system called the Braumeister, which is a very nifty if not very expensive little all in one machine that works like a deep fat frier in that the grain is in a basket that you lift in and out.

There is a little scepticism about tannin and protein extraction, as they are not happy that the wort is not clear, which I suppose by Pilseners etc is more of a concern, especially as they brew reinheitsgebot and won't add copper finings as a result, I think once you are adding copper finings this is not so much a concern.

http://www.speidels-braumeister.de/shop" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... fd33l83av0

On a side note, I'd love one of those machines they look very very cool.

One of them called BIAB the braumeister for poor people, but in a non-derogatory way as he said, if it gets results, why not?
Last edited by EoinMag on 29 Jul 2010, 19:17, edited 6 times in total.
http://beernvictuals.blogspot.com/ My blog, If you like what you read post a comment on the blog comments section thanks, BIAB post coming soon.

Post #8 made 16 years ago
by SacSoul
EoinMag wrote:
PistolPatch wrote:Just read your Decoction like process for pilsners etc. Thanks for posting that Eoin.

Will look forward to hearing what response BIAB gets on hobbybrauer.

Cheers,
PP

So far, it looks like a German system called the Braumeister, which is a very nifty if not very expensive little all in one machine that works like a deep fat frier in that the grain is in a basket that you lift in and out.

There is a little scepticism about tannin and protein extraction, as they are not happy that the wort is not clear, which I suppose by Pilseners etc is more of a concern, especially as they brew reinheitsgebot and won't add copper finings as a result, I think once you are adding copper finings this is not so much a concern.

http://www.speidels-braumeister.de/shop" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... fd33l83av0

On a side note, I'd love one of those machines they look very very cool.

One of them called BIAB the braumeister for poor people, but in a non-derogatory way as he said, if it gets results, why not?
Wow, that Braumeister/Brewmaster is impressive, if perhaps a bit over-engineered. I wants! :D Maybe I can sell my car for one (or at least a down payment on the 200L model :D).
Last edited by SacSoul on 30 Jul 2010, 11:28, edited 6 times in total.
Arrogant Bastard Ale: "...Perhaps you think multi-million dollar ad campaigns make a beer taste better. Perhaps you're mouthing your words as you read this."

Post #10 made 16 years ago
by EoinMag
hashie wrote:Holy crap, that's over $2,000 AU for the 20l job!

I think I'll stick with my freebie keggle, cheap voile and free gas ;)
Yeah it'd be a job for lotto winners methinks. Definitely a nice machine though, if I could....I would, I have to admit.
Last edited by EoinMag on 30 Jul 2010, 15:20, edited 6 times in total.
http://beernvictuals.blogspot.com/ My blog, If you like what you read post a comment on the blog comments section thanks, BIAB post coming soon.

Post #11 made 16 years ago
by PistolPatch
There's a really nice brewer from Denmark called mimerbryg who was most helpful in the early BIAB days and first posted a link to the Braumeister. He probably speaks German too so you guys should track him down as he posts really well. (I'll send him a PM and see if I can get him on here.)

There is also a retailer over here in Australia (Mark's Home Brew or MHB) who has the Braumeister and really likes it. He is a very well-educated brewer and doesn't sell anything he doesn't like so this says something.

The Braumeister is essentially automated BIAB but has been around longer than our manual BIAB.

Hopefully we'll see mimerbryg posting here soon.

Fingers crossed,
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 30 Jul 2010, 19:47, edited 6 times in total.
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Post #12 made 16 years ago
by Beachbum
Inspired by the Braumeister I was designing a single vessel Brew in a Malt tube system using my existing urn, an inner 'sleeve' made out of just a food grade plastic cylinder with a false bottom that would fit fairly snugly into the urn and a March Pump.
The idea was to mash in the urn, BIAB style then turn on the pump and switch on the Urn heat element, recirculating the wort out of the tap and onto the top of the grain in the inner chamber to form a grain bed and Vorlauf then keep circulating until the wort was running clear. Keep heating and recirculating until mashout temperature then turn off the pump and raise the "malt pipe / bucket / inner chamber. Do a small sparge if required then bring to the boil.

I worked it out that with the pump, a three way ball valve (one side to the pump and the other side to a tube to take the finished wort to the chiller or no chill cube) etc etc I would be up for over $350, so I shrugged my shoulders and just bought a second urn (see two-urn system thread).
Why fix what ain't broke :lol:

Post #13 made 16 years ago
by PistolPatch
A good move BB. A very good and intelligent move!

I must say that we brewers often have a fascination for making things more complex when we shouldn't :). I now have a huge "spare parts" department in my little apartment of things that I tinkered with and shouldn't have.

I remember thinking a stainless steel basket would be better than a bag and spent months exploring this. It isn't any better than a bag and poses a whole new set of problems.

Clarifying wort with pumps, as you have realised is the same. This is a problem easily solved for chilled wort with the commonly available auto-syphon. Wizard is working on a stainless steel version which should completley resolve this problem for both chilled and hot worts. The end result will be simple but the thinking required to get to that stage is very involved and detailed.

Clever, simple things in brewing I think are best. Way too much of home-brewer's thinking goes along the lines of, "How can I be like a commercial brewery?" whereas the commercial brewers are thinking, "Wow, if I only had to brew 23 L - 50L I could do it like this!"

We too often ignore our advantages I reckon.

Cheers BB,
PP
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Post #14 made 16 years ago
by Ralph
I couldn't agree more with PP, BB etc, keeping the processes and equipment simple while taking advantage of things that actually work already. I think we all realise that BIAB is a quantum leap in terms of minimising actual equipment, compared to other methods it wins hands down. The first brewery to scale it up commercially would be setting the cats amongst the pigeons. Good to see we have some inquisitive minds in our midst, keep up the great work guys.

While the Braumeister is effectively BIAB without the bag plus automation, I'm not sure if the expense would be worth it, particularly as I also remain to be convinced that cloudy wort translates into beer that is any better or worse. :o
Now, we've probably all seen the automated brewing threads over at AHB, when I've finished laughing (you know which one I mean) / picking myself up of the floor (felled by bling tax in another), I feel so disappointed that brewers feel they have to go to such lengths to make AG beer when in fact, as well know, it can taste just great without any of that ridiculous shiny stuff or any machines that go ping. I'm not an anti- mechanisation troglodyte at all, I actually do similar sorts of knobby techo things for a crust, but unless there's a physical compromise or perhaps a disability issue to overcome, I just struggle to see the point. It would be sort of like building a CNC to do some hobby wood turning- where's the sense in that? Wrong forum maybe...

Sorry, that was an unintended /rant, think I need to have some more soothing anti- grumpy syrup (coffee)...
[center]Give me a beer and I will move the world. Archimedes[/center]

Post #15 made 16 years ago
by hashie
Ralph wrote: I think we all realise that BIAB is a quantum leap in terms of minimising actual equipment, compared to other methods it wins hands down.

<snip>

Sorry, that was an unintended /rant, think I need to have some more soothing anti- grumpy syrup (coffee)...

I would have thought it a bigger leap forward than "quantum" :)

And surely you meant to say beer :lol:
Last edited by hashie on 31 Jul 2010, 14:18, edited 6 times in total.
"It's beer Jim, but not as we know it."

Post #16 made 16 years ago
by BobBrews
When I was a kid I liked to bowl. The kind in a bowling ally. I was about 10 or 12 (1950's). A professional bowler was in town to give a exhibition or open training? Anyway, somehow I ended up practicing with this guy before the show. I asked him how I could get to be a good bowler? He told me "If you minimize the things that can go wrong you have less to correct"! he said "hold the ball out and just drop it the same way each time" "If you push it out on your first step you will either push it out to early, to fast, to slow, to high" I always remembered that bowling lesson. BIAB is minimizing the things that could go wrong.

Sorry for the long or obtuse analogy! I am a techno-Nut. I love technology but I know that sometimes "Simple is Smarter"!
tap 1 Raspberry wine
tap 2 Bourbon Barrel Porter
tap 3 Czech Pilsner
tap 4 Triple IPA 11% ABV
Pipeline: Mulled Cider 10% ABV

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Post #17 made 16 years ago
by SacSoul
BobBrews wrote:When I was a kid I liked to bowl. The kind in a bowling ally. I was about 10 or 12 (1950's). A professional bowler was in town to give a exhibition or open training? Anyway, somehow I ended up practicing with this guy before the show. I asked him how I could get to be a good bowler? He told me "If you minimize the things that can go wrong you have less to correct"! he said "hold the ball out and just drop it the same way each time" "If you push it out on your first step you will either push it out to early, to fast, to slow, to high" I always remembered that bowling lesson. BIAB is minimizing the things that could go wrong.

Sorry for the long or obtuse analogy! I am a techno-Nut. I love technology but I know that sometimes "Simple is Smarter"!
And who knew that bowlers could give sound advice ;)
Last edited by SacSoul on 01 Aug 2010, 01:59, edited 6 times in total.
Arrogant Bastard Ale: "...Perhaps you think multi-million dollar ad campaigns make a beer taste better. Perhaps you're mouthing your words as you read this."

Post #18 made 15 years ago
by mimerbryg
There's a really nice brewer from Denmark called mimerbryg who was most helpful in the early BIAB days and first posted a link to the Braumeister. He probably speaks German too so you guys should track him down as he posts really well. (I'll send him a PM and see if I can get him on here.)
Pat - I am deeply sorry that I did not discover your PM on AHB before today. Hope you are well :-)
I have not had much time for brewing the last year. Got a new job late last summer as a Logistic Manager and we our house need some fixing/restoration. As my brewbuddy also got a new job it has been impossible to find a date where we could brew.

The Braumeister is for me a plug-and-brew system. You do not have to messed with a lot of equipment to get brewing, but you also pay the price. The system I use is very much this:
Inspired by the Braumeister I was designing a single vessel Brew in a Malt tube system using my existing urn, an inner 'sleeve' made out of just a food grade plastic cylinder with a false bottom that would fit fairly snugly into the urn and a March Pump.
The idea was to mash in the urn, BIAB style then turn on the pump and switch on the Urn heat element, recirculating the wort out of the tap and onto the top of the grain in the inner chamber to form a grain bed and Vorlauf then keep circulating until the wort was running clear. Keep heating and recirculating until mashout temperature then turn off the pump and raise the "malt pipe / bucket / inner chamber. Do a small sparge if required then bring to the boil.
The kettle is known in Germay as a "Einkochsautomat" or "Rommelstopf".
BTW Lidl has the kettle for sale some time ago at a very low price
http://www.lidl-shop.de/de/Haushalt-und ... at-KH-1135

I know the german board http://www.hobbybrauer.de/index.php. They have a lot of great ideas and some of the finish products they make are crazy.
Look at this system for example. The kettleis the same as mine, but is a bit more modified:
http://www.hobbybrauer.de/modules.php?n ... erdate=ASC

Another great project is a "beer-colour-detaermination-device"
http://www.hobbybrauer.de/modules.php?n ... d&tid=7576
I will put in to an Arduino-project when I get more sparetime.

You can see my brewday in pictures here if you like
http://picasaweb.google.com/mimerbryg/Brewday02#

Kind regards Flemming
Last edited by mimerbryg on 10 Sep 2010, 06:24, edited 6 times in total.

Post #19 made 15 years ago
by PistolPatch
Hi ya Flemming and welcome aboard :),

Congratulations on the job promotion and great to see you found your way here and are up and posting! I wish I could read German as those links you provided above look very interesting. Your brew day pics make it easy for someone to get a good idea of the full-volume method with a "bucket" for want of a better word ;).

Look forward to more of your usual top quality posts and hope you can get a few brews in soon :).

Take it easy,
PP
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Post #20 made 15 years ago
by Beachbum
Flemming, the pictures of your brewday are more or less what I was going to do, with the brew bucket. I love the home made "crane" arrangement !! I suppose the only difference between that and brew-in-a-bag is that the bucket allows the wort to escape through the bottom only, and has the advantage that a grain bed can build up during raising and sparging.
Top work

cheers
Michael

Post #21 made 15 years ago
by mimerbryg
Another difference is that I sparge and therefore need another kettle/boiler with spargewater.

In the original thread with the 'all-in-one-breing-system' on AHB, other members claimed that my system is 'all-in-one plus a kettle with spargewater'.
Pat bring up the brilliant idea to brew with all the water in one kettle and then use a bag to remove the grain from the finished worth. Rest is history.

What I like about BIAB - even though I have not tried it myself - is the fact that the system was invented on
  • courage to do something new and not proven
  • equipment that are accessible everywhere. Even i Denmark where brewshops are rare and materials not are easy to find you can find the materials to brew with BIAB
  • despite restistance and ironic contributions from brewers with more traditional systems the BIAB-brewers keep developing their brewingmethod - sharing good and bad experiences with each other in a friendly and helping tone
  • old BIAB´ers helping novices
The grandfathers of the system can lean back rest in peace. BIAB is proven to brew good beer, from less equipment.

BTW my system is not invented by me. It was invented by a homebrewers in Denmark who keep to develope and fine-tune until the result is the system I use today. So no credit to me for that :D

If you want some translation from the German site, please let me know. I will then do the best to make a translation.

Kind regards
Flemming
Last edited by mimerbryg on 16 Sep 2010, 00:12, edited 6 times in total.

Post #22 made 15 years ago
by Pat
mimerbryg wrote:The grandfathers of the system can lean back and rest in peace.
We're not dead yet Flemming :).

Very nice of you to post the above but your posts back in those early days made a huge difference so here's to you Grandpa.

Thanks, again,
Pat
Last edited by Pat on 20 Sep 2010, 17:12, edited 6 times in total.
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Post #23 made 15 years ago
by Ralph
Ahhh, don't you love watching old timers getting stuck into each other with walking sticks, handbags, rolled up newspapers etc! :lol:

I only jest- keep up the great work you guys! :P
[center]Give me a beer and I will move the world. Archimedes[/center]

Post #24 made 12 years ago
by HeraldOfChange
Hi guys, I know this is an old thread, but I'm a member of hobbybrauer.de and have posted on the Silvercrest as mentioned above.
http://hobbybrauer.de/modules.php?name= ... &tid=19199

I'm a BIAB Brewer and use a dishwasher pump to recirculate my mash. The Braumeister mentioned above is essentially a reverse recirculating mash system with fully programable mash scheduling. What's attractive about the system is the ability to fully automate the mash schedule, walk away and come back to it at the appropriate time, which is something my Einkochautomat cannot do, however for the price of the Silvercrest, periodically sold at half price by Lidl and orderable online, its digital control is very good and certainly accurate to within a degree. Thick mashes however tend to have a overshoot that can be as much as 2 degrees. Other than that its a pretty sweet rig.

Post #25 made 12 years ago
by Beachbum
Welcome to the forum.

Einkochautomat: way to go :thumbs:
Would be just the thing for sous vide cooking as well.

Here's the YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNYoQXUh7Ok

We don't have Lidl in Australia, just Aldi - what capacity is the Silvercrest? I'd guess with a pump then it's a BIAB system without some of the hassles such as wrapping towels and quilts round the pot etc, and the digital display looks great.

How much are they ?

Edit: found the site, 30 litres and around 90 dollars Australian. :o :o :o wow.

Is Silvercrest a Lidl trademark like Aldi's Tevion and Medion or are they available in other stores?
Last edited by Beachbum on 08 Oct 2013, 09:07, edited 6 times in total.
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